The Persuasiveness of the Christian Community

[Colter]

Jesus spoke about his crucifixion a great deal. The Old Testament does as well.



This is straight cray-cray.

Jesus spoke about his death yes, but that wasn't his gospel. Killing Jesus was a sin, not a path to salvation. (Perhaps a path to familiarity for the world outside of Judaism who was rejecting their calling and the savior) Jesus & company were already going from town to town teaching "the good news gospel", it wasn't about salvation through the death of an innocent man. Pagan theology contaminated evolving Christianity, that's why the Romans eventually naturally merged their Mystery religions with Paul's Christianized version of the original good news, they were very similar.

And the reason Jesus gave for his death wasn't atonement, in the original gospel God was already forgiving, he has always been forgiving. And salvation was by faith not conditional to human sacrifice.

Jesus' own family thought he was cray-cray as well. Revelation is ongoing.

 

[Freodin]

I am more the loner type than one who is engaging in community organisations... but even I have a few friends and other acquaintances, and some of them even are Christians (well, most are - not very surprising in rural Bavaria).

Somehow I have never seem them as a "Christian" group. There are really nice people among them. There are some real jerks among them. That seems to be rather evenly distributed among Christians and non-Christians.

But the people who tried to tell me how to live my life in order to be a "good person", according to what their celestial being of choice says... this kind of jerks were all Christians.


So, nope, the Christian community does not convince me.


(edit: and I include the various "disciples of Jesus but not a Christian" in "this kind of jerks"... if there is a celestial being who wants to convince me of anything, I'm sure he/she/it has my adress, and doesn't need to rely on "this kind of jerks".)

 

[JGG]

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 - See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?

Now, I'm not trying to get into a debate about the righteousness of God's Law. Here's what I want to talk about:

The Christian community is supposed to be persuasive. You may not believe what we believe. Our arguments may not persuade you. But it's supposed to be that our communal life is so impressive and glorious that you are drawn toward our message.

Have you experienced the life of the church to be persuasive or unpersuasive? Explain.

Unpersuasive. I actively attempt to stay away from Christians as much as possible in real life.

 

[Colter]

Unpersuasive. I actively attempt to stay away from Christians as much as possible in real life.

The wicked flee when no one pursues them.

 

[JGG]

The wicked flee when no one pursues them.

No. The "wicked", if that's what we're calling me, just opt not to go near jerks who call him wicked, and morally deficient and physically attack him, if the "wicked" doesn't have to.

 

[quatona]

Now, I'm not trying to get into a debate about the righteousness of God's Law. Here's what I want to talk about:

The Christian community is supposed to be persuasive. You may not believe what we believe. Our arguments may not persuade you. But it's supposed to be that our communal life is so impressive and glorious that you are drawn toward our message.

Have you experienced the life of the church to be persuasive or unpersuasive? Explain.

Just to get this out of the way upfront: Are we talking self-professing Christians or self-professing TrueChristiansTM here?
Cause I´d hate to answer based on reality just to run into a True Scotsman.

 

[Nooj]

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 - See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?

Now, I'm not trying to get into a debate about the righteousness of God's Law. Here's what I want to talk about:

The Christian community is supposed to be persuasive. You may not believe what we believe. Our arguments may not persuade you. But it's supposed to be that our communal life is so impressive and glorious that you are drawn toward our message.

Have you experienced the life of the church to be persuasive or unpersuasive? Explain.

i want to point out that that verse doesn't say that the christian community itself has the power of persuasion. aside from the fact that this is a verse from deuteronomy and is in reference to the nation of israel, not christians.

if the christian community is persuasive, that is thanks to the work of the holy spirit, not on our merits.

 

[Colter]

From my religious, revelatory book:

Christianity’s Problem​

"Do not overlook the value of your spiritual heritage, the river of truth running down through the centuries, even to the barren times of a materialistic and secular age. In all your worthy efforts to rid yourselves of the superstitious creeds of past ages, make sure that you hold fast the eternal truth. But be patient! when the present superstition revolt is over, the truths of Jesus’ gospel will persist gloriously to illuminate a new and better way.

But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.

The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings. If Christianity persists in neglecting its spiritual mission while it continues to busy itself with social and material problems, the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus’ religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men. And then will these spirit-born souls quickly supply the leadership and inspiration requisite for the social, moral, economic, and political reorganization of the world.

The modern age will refuse to accept a religion which is inconsistent with facts and out of harmony with its highest conceptions of truth, beauty, and goodness. The hour is striking for a rediscovery of the true and original foundations of present-day distorted and compromised Christianity — the real life and teachings of Jesus.

Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them — and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.

Selfish men and women simply will not pay such a price for even the greatest spiritual treasure ever offered mortal man. Only when man has become sufficiently disillusioned by the sorrowful disappointments attendant upon the foolish and deceptive pursuits of selfishness, and subsequent to the discovery of the barrenness of formalized religion, will he be disposed to turn wholeheartedly to the gospel of the kingdom, the religion of Jesus of Nazareth.

The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men’s souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man’s soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond.

Christianity has dared to lower its ideals before the challenge of human greed, war-madness, and the lust for power; but the religion of Jesus stands as the unsullied and transcendent spiritual summons, calling to the best there is in man to rise above all these legacies of animal evolution and, by grace, attain the moral heights of true human destiny.

Christianity is threatened by slow death from formalism, overorganization, intellectualism, and other nonspiritual trends. The modern Christian church is not such a brotherhood of dynamic believers as Jesus commissioned continuously to effect the spiritual transformation of successive generations of mankind.

So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source." UB 1955​

 

[Davian]

From my religious, revelatory book:

Christianity’s Problem​

"Do not overlook the value of your spiritual heritage, the river of truth running down through the centuries, even to the barren times of a materialistic and secular age. In all your worthy efforts to rid yourselves of the superstitious creeds of past ages, make sure that you hold fast the eternal truth. But be patient! when the present superstition revolt is over, the truths of Jesus’ gospel will persist gloriously to illuminate a new and better way.

But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.

The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings. If Christianity persists in neglecting its spiritual mission while it continues to busy itself with social and material problems, the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus’ religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men. And then will these spirit-born souls quickly supply the leadership and inspiration requisite for the social, moral, economic, and political reorganization of the world.

The modern age will refuse to accept a religion which is inconsistent with facts and out of harmony with its highest conceptions of truth, beauty, and goodness. The hour is striking for a rediscovery of the true and original foundations of present-day distorted and compromised Christianity — the real life and teachings of Jesus.

Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them — and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.

Selfish men and women simply will not pay such a price for even the greatest spiritual treasure ever offered mortal man. Only when man has become sufficiently disillusioned by the sorrowful disappointments attendant upon the foolish and deceptive pursuits of selfishness, and subsequent to the discovery of the barrenness of formalized religion, will he be disposed to turn wholeheartedly to the gospel of the kingdom, the religion of Jesus of Nazareth.

The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men’s souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man’s soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond.

Christianity has dared to lower its ideals before the challenge of human greed, war-madness, and the lust for power; but the religion of Jesus stands as the unsullied and transcendent spiritual summons, calling to the best there is in man to rise above all these legacies of animal evolution and, by grace, attain the moral heights of true human destiny.

Christianity is threatened by slow death from formalism, overorganization, intellectualism, and other nonspiritual trends. The modern Christian church is not such a brotherhood of dynamic believers as Jesus commissioned continuously to effect the spiritual transformation of successive generations of mankind.

So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source." UB 1955​

 

[Ana the Ist]

Deuteronomy 4:5-8 - See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today?

Now, I'm not trying to get into a debate about the righteousness of God's Law. Here's what I want to talk about:

The Christian community is supposed to be persuasive. You may not believe what we believe. Our arguments may not persuade you. But it's supposed to be that our communal life is so impressive and glorious that you are drawn toward our message.

Have you experienced the life of the church to be persuasive or unpersuasive? Explain.

I wasn't originally going to answer this question because I didn't want to offend any christians with a rather frank perception of their "glorious communal life", but I was inspired by another christian on another thread to share my personal views here. Apparently describing large groups of people according to one's own personal bias is in fashion these days. With that in mind....

No, absolutely not...not even a little. It's quite the opposite, I find it repulsive. There are some core aspects of my own atheism that influence this view, such as holding truth as a matter of importance. Other aspects really have nothing to do with my atheism, such as the disdain and disgust I feel towards those who lie to each other and themselves and revel in hypocrisy.

Now, it's important to point out that I've never been to church apart from weddings and funerals. I've never sat through any sort of service whatsoever. I was taught about god by my parents...who are basically only christian in name....but I became an atheist at a young age ( 11 if I remember correctly) specifically because I was exposed to christianity by a young friend of mine. I rarely ever gave religion or god much thought until this young friend confronted me about why I didn't attend church. He was clearly concerned for my eternal soul and he began trying to persuade me to attend with him and his family. When I began to question the things he told me, he didn't really have any good answers (which isn't really his fault being only 10-11 himself). I realized that he believed, but he didn't really know why...nor did I since I wasn't familiar with the concept of indoctrination at that age. Yet what was clearwas that he was attempting to use fear to manipulate my behavior. This conversation was what got me thinking hard about religion and god and led to me becoming an atheist a couple weeks later.

Since then I've never really noticed anything of value in religion... of view that would be strongly reinforced as I became an adult. You see, most people I know, work with, or am friends with are christian. I'm openly atheist, and I enjoy asking them on Sundays during instances of small talk "How was church?". As an atheist I think they feel comfortable being honest with me. The responses are frequently very very negative. The disdain for each other, the kissing up, the petty jealousy, the back stabbing, the fake pleasantries, anxiety, etc etc. It all resembles to me a sort of "high school" type paradigm... and they choose to engage in it. It's not that they never have anything positive to say about the experience... it's just that it seems to be outnumbered by the negatives. It doesn't matter who I speak to, which denomination, or even the size of the church...it all ends up sounding very similar.

I could go on and on about a lifetime of negativity regarding my experiences with christians... but it's not even something that surprises me anymore. It appears to me a group of people pretending to like each other and forcing themselves to endure each other's company when quite clearly they shouldn't. I can't even recall one instance of a tangible benefit any of them have received from their religion...it's all emotional to them.

So again, no...there's nothing in the christian community that appeals to me in the least. If anything, it's reinforced my beliefs and discouraged me from doing anything (regarding religion) with my christian friends except to try and persuade them to become an atheist like myself.

 

[lupusFati]

Christianity was very persuasive to me. They persuaded me right out of the religion due to their hypocrisy, hatred, and bigotry, at least in my experience.

I'm not saying that's what Christianity IS, but I don't see many actual Christians these days.

 

[quatona]

The Christian community is supposed to be persuasive. You may not believe what we believe. Our arguments may not persuade you. But it's supposed to be that our communal life is so impressive and glorious that you are drawn toward our message.
Have you experienced the life of the church to be persuasive or unpersuasive? Explain.

This summer I spent three weeks in an outdoor circus camp with 60 other people. The communal life there was persuasive, "impressive and glorious" - alas, there wasn´t any ideological message that I could have felt drawn towards.

As for my experience of Christian communal life: it seems to be not much different from average communal life - apart from few positive and negative anecdotal extremes.

 

[Colter]

As followers of Jesus we of Christianity lost our way long ago and don't do a very good job of representing the shepherd. Many unbelievers will only use our shortcomings as an excuse not to get to know Jesus themselves and do a better job of representing Christ than we have.

 

[quatona]

As followers of Jesus we of Christianity lost our way long ago and don't do a very good job of representing the shepherd. Many unbelievers will only use our shortcomings as an excuse not to get to know Jesus themselves and do a better job of representing Christ than we have.

It would never cross my mind to conclude from the behaviour on the accuracy of the message. Remember, it was the OP who suggested this line of reasoning (i.e. using you guys´ glorious, impressive and persuasive conduct as a reason to be drawn into the message and using your "shortcomings as an excuse...").

 

[Colter]

It would never cross my mind to conclude from the behaviour on the accuracy of the message. Remember, it was the OP who suggested this line of reasoning (i.e. using you guys´ glorious, impressive and persuasive conduct as a reason to be drawn into the message and using your "shortcomings as an excuse...").

Yes, I realize that, I'm just being honest about our part in why the fellowship of believers has been unattractive to others. I commonly read things along the lines of the failings of individual Christians as a reason not to embrace Jesus.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Have you experienced the life of the church to be persuasive or unpersuasive? Explain.

Persuasive... of what? Certainly not the truth of Christian theology.

Under ideal conditions, I might think that Christians can be just as good as non-Christians, but that isn't saying much.

Under less than ideal conditions, I might think that Christians can be just as divisive, petty, shallow, and hypocritical as non-Christians, but that isn't saying much either.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Emmy]

Dear Tree of Life. The Love and Persuasiveness of a true Christian Community
is truly wonderful. Words cannot describe it, and Jesus our Saviour is right in the midst of us. We are truly following our Lord`s advice which He gave us in:
Matthew 22: 35-40: " Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves"
All invited men and women will recognise the great Love and the great Comradeship that fills all followers of Christ. We have to experience it to truly understand it and learn from it.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we have shed all our selfishness and unfriendly behaviour, and only live and try to truly Love God and our brothers and sisters. Love is very catching, and we have learned how true this is. That is how our Heavenly Father always wants us to be,
Love God and love our neighbour. Sadly, we stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and Caring. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
May all Christian Communities stay like this, and be examples to an imperfect
world. I say this with love, Tree of Life. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.