The path of understanding

[Multi-Elis]

I just wanted to share the kinds of thins that are going through my head lately. You can consider this as a follow up to my earlier thread on being a heretic, or you can join in and put some of what you have been experiencing and learning recently.

Well, it's been some time now that I have been labeling myself an Agnostic Christian. When I tell other people that I'm agnostic (christian) people usually want to know if I'm doubting chrisitanity, or what my bugging questions are. Now even though I keep a rigorous writen thought diary and make an effort to put every thing in words, I usually find myself at a loss for words. Last Sunday I answered that if I had clear cut easy to ask questions, then I would easily get an answer. But that it goes beyond articulate questions. Today, talking to an 'almost christian', I said that it's not that I doubt the truth of chrisitianity, it's that I find it so multi dimentional, so complex, and the interlincking so difficult. Again, I was at a loss for words, (a rare thing for me) and all I could do was try speak parables.

So coming home tonight, I just noticed a parable to explain this:
I do ballet. When I started ballet, I thought that what was most essential to ballet technique (what defines the way you move) is that you have your feet pointing out, and you try to be sexy. As I continued learning ballet, I discovered that what was essential to the form was that you have your legs turned out. If you have your legs turned out, then your feet as a result naturally turn out. And then as I continued doing ballet, I realized that what really is essential and at the heart of ballet, that which is decisive for deciding if you 'have technique' or not, is if you retroverse your pelvis and turn those knobs on your hip bones out. The result is that your legs are naturally turned out, and therefore your feet are naturally turned out. I am still working out the application of this new system. But who knows what really is the heart of ballet techinique? How many more times will I be changing my mind?

Well, in the same way, christianity is like that. When you first become a christian, you are so happy that Yeshua saved you from your sins. Then after a while, you realize that faith without works is dead. You realize that to have works, you need a change of heart, and to abide in Him. I don't know what one realizes after that. But I am sure that there are many layers yet to be uncovered, many new ways that Christianity can be understood. All of what you thought before, still remains true, yet you understand it differently.

Well, I have to admit, this is about the most positive thing I can say. Because the truth is that I spend my days suspended between intense inarticulate questionning, (and fighting my way to allow myself to ask questions, even stuped ones,) and a sort of down to earth desire to take things logically and simply: Bear fruit, and meditate on Yeshua.

I have been reading a lot of oppinions testamonies and reflections by knowlegeable people. Yet their knowelge always seems to be finite, fall short. This is normal. And I guess, I desire to know as much as I can, in the hopes to process as much as I can, understand it, and find that which surpasses knowlege and wisdom. (Sorry, that is poetry, not anything you can understand something logically from)

I guess I seek to be aware, and consious, ans much as possible. And every day seems to be like finding out how what I thought to be true and 'the way it works' the day before isn't quite like that. I might find that the parable I gave above is more temporary than what I think.

I am in an uncomfortable place, one which I know many of you have been in: I want clear guidance and structure. Yet that seems to work differently than the way I thought it did in the past. It's also an exciting place to be. Each day I feel both happy to learn new things and upset, fighting learning new things because it makes me more agnostic than ever. (It's a painfull process)

In Jewish Kabala, I remember hearing of a place called a "pardess" (it's an abreviation for something) but it also sounds like it means an orchard or a paradise. And it is said that those who venture in get lost in it. That's what it feels like, when I stop allowing fear to get in my way of my searchings.

Funny enough, the people to whom I tell that I am an Agnostic Christian, ask me about the agnostisism aspect. Simply put: I don't trust in my ability to know and understand whith my finite mind. But they usually forget to ask why I still consider myself a Christian. I have met Agnostic Christains who aswer this very well. I can answer this too, if I need to. But the truth is I don't know any more. I see the bread broken by the priest. I love this ritual: "Take, eat, this is my body broken for you". And the priest opens his arms out wide, like Yeshua did, like an offering. After the priest blesses the wine, he stops acting Yeshua's part and administers the eucharist to himself. He, like us, needs it too. Then he takes the bread and the wine and serves it to people. Wow. What a ritual. I'd love to be the priest who does it,and I could do this ritual every single day. It's so magical. Yet to tell you the truth, I don't understand it anymore.

And so, it seems that a larger aspect of me becomes day by day more Agnostic, and at the same time, another aspect of me becomes more into the symbols and parables and new ways of understanding things. I am still trying to figure out why I am a Christian, what makes me one, and in the face of the many facettes, what use there is in calling myself anything in the first place.

This isn't a comfortable place to be, I would like to see if there are other existing systems that are more functional... more positive, and just as true... here I go again.

Well, if this post didn't make sense, that's fine. I'm having a hard time puting words to things.

 

[Im_A]

I just wanted to share the kinds of thins that are going through my head lately. You can consider this as a follow up to my earlier thread on being a heretic, or you can join in and put some of what you have been experiencing and learning recently.

Well, it's been some time now that I have been labeling myself an Agnostic Christian. When I tell other people that I'm agnostic (christian) people usually want to know if I'm doubting chrisitanity, or what my bugging questions are. Now even though I keep a rigorous writen thought diary and make an effort to put every thing in words, I usually find myself at a loss for words. Last Sunday I answered that if I had clear cut easy to ask questions, then I would easily get an answer. But that it goes beyond articulate questions. Today, talking to an 'almost christian', I said that it's not that I doubt the truth of chrisitianity, it's that I find it so multi dimentional, so complex, and the interlincking so difficult. Again, I was at a loss for words, (a rare thing for me) and all I could do was try speak parables.

So coming home tonight, I just noticed a parable to explain this:
I do ballet. When I started ballet, I thought that what was most essential to ballet technique (what defines the way you move) is that you have your feet pointing out, and you try to be sexy. As I continued learning ballet, I discovered that what was essential to the form was that you have your legs turned out. If you have your legs turned out, then your feet as a result naturally turn out. And then as I continued doing ballet, I realized that what really is essential and at the heart of ballet, that which is decisive for deciding if you 'have technique' or not, is if you retroverse your pelvis and turn those knobs on your hip bones out. The result is that your legs are naturally turned out, and therefore your feet are naturally turned out. I am still working out the application of this new system. But who knows what really is the heart of ballet techinique? How many more times will I be changing my mind?

Well, in the same way, christianity is like that. When you first become a christian, you are so happy that Yeshua saved you from your sins. Then after a while, you realize that faith without works is dead. You realize that to have works, you need a change of heart, and to abide in Him. I don't know what one realizes after that. But I am sure that there are many layers yet to be uncovered, many new ways that Christianity can be understood. All of what you thought before, still remains true, yet you understand it differently.

Well, I have to admit, this is about the most positive thing I can say. Because the truth is that I spend my days suspended between intense inarticulate questionning, (and fighting my way to allow myself to ask questions, even stuped ones,) and a sort of down to earth desire to take things logically and simply: Bear fruit, and meditate on Yeshua.

I have been reading a lot of oppinions testamonies and reflections by knowlegeable people. Yet their knowelge always seems to be finite, fall short. This is normal. And I guess, I desire to know as much as I can, in the hopes to process as much as I can, understand it, and find that which surpasses knowlege and wisdom. (Sorry, that is poetry, not anything you can understand something logically from)

I guess I seek to be aware, and consious, ans much as possible. And every day seems to be like finding out how what I thought to be true and 'the way it works' the day before isn't quite like that. I might find that the parable I gave above is more temporary than what I think.

I am in an uncomfortable place, one which I know many of you have been in: I want clear guidance and structure. Yet that seems to work differently than the way I thought it did in the past. It's also an exciting place to be. Each day I feel both happy to learn new things and upset, fighting learning new things because it makes me more agnostic than ever. (It's a painfull process)

In Jewish Kabala, I remember hearing of a place called a "pardess" (it's an abreviation for something) but it also sounds like it means an orchard or a paradise. And it is said that those who venture in get lost in it. That's what it feels like, when I stop allowing fear to get in my way of my searchings.

Funny enough, the people to whom I tell that I am an Agnostic Christian, ask me about the agnostisism aspect. Simply put: I don't trust in my ability to know and understand whith my finite mind. But they usually forget to ask why I still consider myself a Christian. I have met Agnostic Christains who aswer this very well. I can answer this too, if I need to. But the truth is I don't know any more. I see the bread broken by the priest. I love this ritual: "Take, eat, this is my body broken for you". And the priest opens his arms out wide, like Yeshua did, like an offering. After the priest blesses the wine, he stops acting Yeshua's part and administers the eucharist to himself. He, like us, needs it too. Then he takes the bread and the wine and serves it to people. Wow. What a ritual. I'd love to be the priest who does it,and I could do this ritual every single day. It's so magical. Yet to tell you the truth, I don't understand it anymore.

And so, it seems that a larger aspect of me becomes day by day more Agnostic, and at the same time, another aspect of me becomes more into the symbols and parables and new ways of understanding things. I am still trying to figure out why I am a Christian, what makes me one, and in the face of the many facettes, what use there is in calling myself anything in the first place.

This isn't a comfortable place to be, I would like to see if there are other existing systems that are more functional... more positive, and just as true... here I go again.

Well, if this post didn't make sense, that's fine. I'm having a hard time puting words to things.

hey multi-elis.

some of what i'm experiencing lately is kind of simliar here. the utter joy of learning, but utter pain that faith can sometimes give. that's how i see the so called "agonstic christian" relying on. cause if there was no reason to believe, might as well deconvert from it all as far as i'm concerned. then sometimes there's utter joy with having faith. the peace that comes with still believeing, even though the questions are overwhelming is very comforting.

the best thing i can to say is, Jesus said "to not worry about tomorrow cause today has its own trouble." the questions will be there tomorrow waiting. the search for the meaning of life will be there tomorrow, as it has been since Jesus rose from the grave. all these things never cease to exist until death. so why worry? i've gone to the furth degree of why caring, doesn't mean i'm not working on that stuff, but i'm working on them in my own pace, and with a clear hope (not saying your not), to just grow.

so in ending, i'm agnostic (hence the reason why now my icon is hidden) because there is no scientific evidence of God. there is a distinct difference between speculation evidence, and hardcore facts, and with evidence comes the death of faith. it is 2006, and everything in Christian movements seems agenda based. nothing but selfish desires and egotistcal boasting of agendas, and boasting of one's personal testimony. i have no use for it anymore. and maybe for me personally it's been happening ever since i was 18. so many ways to look at things, from different perspective/360 perspective looking, so much things to look beyond, look through. it's kind of cool in some ways, to see God through everything, and to really search for God, instead of something that makes me happy.

but i'm still a Christian because i believe the Father is fully manifested in Jesus of Nazereth. His teachings are magnificant, even if others before Him preached the same thing cause in my opinion, just shows the Father being all in the all if others preached the same thing Christ taught, just the fullest in Christ. i believe He fulfilled the Will of the Father in living, in dieing and in rising again. i believe He taught the Way. and i do believe in the Trinity, and other "myths" that are easy for me to accept because of believeing in a God that i see as all-powerful. i don't feel the need to logically prove myths, things that require faith to believe in.

so i'm pretty secure i guess in either my concrete faith, OR in the insecurity of where things are actually going. i've always considered myself a person with information, thoughts to think about, but that's about it. cause i don't have concrete answers and i never will. just information in my head, that i'm constantly expounding on. in the end, this is good enough. maybe there will come ANOTHER time, that things will be in crisis in my beliefs. i don't know the future, nor do i worry about it.



God Bless you elis! <><(these are just things that have been going through my head pretty steadfastly here lately.)

 

[Multi-Elis]

Thanks Saint for your post. Indeed, you are right: there is a joy in being a seeker.

In some bible study that I saw recently, it gave categories on what "stage" you are. It gave a thing for "seeker" that was under a person who was about to accept the gospel, which was under a person who accepted the gospel, which was under a person who was a mature christian. Well, it's utter ridiculousness. How much more sense does it make to be a long-time christian and (still) a seeker!

It's funny that the term Christianity is so crucial to my identity. Yesterday I convinced myself that I was still a christian because:

There is the Light. If you can accept The Light and walk in His paths, that is great. If you can grasp and accept the Light, which is the way the truth and the life, without knowing about his physical incarnation, then that is great. But if "The Light" is too abstract a thing, then The Light incarnated himself as Yeshua. I believe that the concept of "The Light" preceeds his reincarnation as Yeshua. But I am not able to think in such abstract terms, so I follow his incarnated physical self is a sort of way to understand it and grasp it. I now think, (Wow, my ways of viewing the same thing change all the time) that everything that Yeshua did physically on earth is just as true before he actually did it. And it's just as true, when somebody decides to "consider it true myth".

Any way, if it sounds crazy or illogical, or stuped or useless -- I have made progress since my post on being a heretic: I don't care (that much).

 

[Im_A]

Thanks Saint for your post. Indeed, you are right: there is a joy in being a seeker.

In some bible study that I saw recently, it gave categories on what "stage" you are. It gave a thing for "seeker" that was under a person who was about to accept the gospel, which was under a person who accepted the gospel, which was under a person who was a mature christian. Well, it's utter ridiculousness. How much more sense does it make to be a long-time christian and (still) a seeker!

agreed. the Gospel is something i think many "seekers" don't realize that they accept...cause of the teachings of Christ's life are easy to accept...Christ said it Himself, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." it's just there are some who are seeking some sort of understanding of the "cosmic" understandings, the things we don't have to deal with so much, but simple intricate beliefs. we are all seekers in trying to be the best we can, and as far as i'm concerned, the seeking process doesn't end till we 6 ft. under...that's the beauty of it in my opinion.

It's funny that the term Christianity is so crucial to my identity. Yesterday I convinced myself that I was still a christian because:

There is the Light. If you can accept The Light and walk in His paths, that is great. If you can grasp and accept the Light, which is the way the truth and the life, without knowing about his physical incarnation, then that is great. But if "The Light" is too abstract a thing, then The Light incarnated himself as Yeshua. I believe that the concept of "The Light" preceeds his reincarnation as Yeshua. But I am not able to think in such abstract terms, so I follow his incarnated physical self is a sort of way to understand it and grasp it. I now think, (Wow, my ways of viewing the same thing change all the time) that everything that Yeshua did physically on earth is just as true before he actually did it. And it's just as true, when somebody decides to "consider it true myth".

Any way, if it sounds crazy or illogical, or stuped or useless -- I have made progress since my post on being a heretic: I don't care (that much).

i must admit, i still deal with that crucialness. it was freeing the first time i admitted, especially to my fiancee, that i'm agnostic, but i still had to term myself as a christian at the same time...because of my beliefs in Christ. for myself, for 12 years i have always considered myself a Christian because of beliefs and what i strive for, and told people i was a Christian. to think of myself as a "heretical" Christian was odd enough at first, but that went away pretty quickly, but the agnostic part, well, it's still new, but easily dealt with i guess. all because of that whole seeking part, and the spiritual life being a lifelong process, not a minute process and the increasing of faith it has produced...which in my opinion, is the vital seed to at least say, "hey, i think i'm finally on the right path of understanding."

and i think your reasoning for calling yourself a Christian is a good way to still believe you are a Christian. Christ's quote of being one with the father has some specific, well, privalages of preceeding His physical incarnation on the earth. basically, or at least in my opinion, grasping to pre-physical incarnation or post-physical incarnation is grasping on to the same thing, just different ways of understanding because the different incarnations teach the same thing, but in different ways of understanding.

and to put it simply, if you still try your best to follow Christ's simple teachings and commandments, then i believe you have every right to consider yourself a Christian. with that said, i'm not that one that makes the call on what label goes to whom but seeking out things, should be seperated in our strife to be Christ-like in my opinion, just cause of the instability that searching for ideas seem to have...going from one idea to another, but there is nothing inconsistant with trying our best to follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazereth to the best of our abilities...cause even the mistakes we make are in the past, and the past is dead. (i hope i haven't started rambling or gotten off topic here.)

God Bless! <><

 

[SpaceMan]

...I would like to see if there are other existing systems that are more functional... more positive, and just as true...

Other belief systems, entirely (like Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.)? …or other Christian beliefs?

 

[Multi-Elis]

I have this system of trying to understand the truth, or grasp the truth, or whatever, that is very painfull, that puts me through days of depression, and it's a typical thing many others on this forum go through as well, sometimes in a worse way (that is, more depressing and more painfull). It revolves around the paradox of freedom and feeling lost. I am wondering if there is anyway I can change my system, to a healthier, or more functional way of searching for the truth. (As I write this, I realize that this is one of the things that Tatted keeps advocating to others in my type of "system": what are the concreat fruit? Here and now? Don't they suffice?)

But this idea of systems of thought:
Suppose for a moment that the system you believed in had a direct affect on how you interpret the things that happen to you in life. Suppose that it didn't matter what category you think you belong to, but rather what you got out of it. Suppose it went beyond the obvious. Suppose that if you were really into sutdying martyrs, and you really got into the subject, that that would somehow bring about martyr situations to you. Either because in being so obsessed with it, you interpret and reinforce things apon you, or because there is some sort of "magical connection" between what you think, and what happens to you. (Actually, this is just an idea borrowed from somebody else who makes a link between his cancer he got, and the way he felt that all human beings were a cancer to this planet.)
So two people who consider themeselves in the same category (Such as a religion) but to each one a different aspect of it translates into a system. To give an over simplified example: things like optimism, fatalism, pessimism, etc.
One of the systems I get out of christianity, is this idea of tragic death and then amazing rebirth. I see it in my favorate story of the O. T. -- Joseph. I see it in the cross. And I guess everything painfull that felt to me like a death, I saw it in these terms. I dread the upcoming death. When it comes and I see that it is inevitable, I hope that it comes apon me so completely. Then there is a period of relief, though still meloncoly. Then comes a sort of re-birth, in a different and new way, in new conditions, at another time. I don't know if it is a healthy thing or not, or if it is a good thing or not. But it is just an example of a "system".
I wonder sometimes if different religions are understanding different legitimate true "systems". Or if Yeshua came to show us the system, or a tangible system, or a couple systems that are functional. Who knows? Just a thought.

 

[SpaceMan]

I have this system of trying to understand the truth…

“The truth” as defined by whom?

Suppose that it didn't matter what category you think you belong to, but rather what you got out of it.

I won’t just suppose it—I’ll agree with it!!

One of the systems I get out of christianity, is this idea of tragic death and then amazing rebirth. …And I guess everything painful that felt to me like a death, I saw it in these terms.

…I wonder sometimes if different religions are understanding different legitimate true "systems". Or if Yeshua came to show us the system, or a tangible system, or a couple systems that are functional. Who knows? Just a thought.

I think I’m following you. An event is an event—within any belief system. Sometimes, the symbolic interpretations of those events are pretty rigid, and other times they are a bit more open to the individual’s interpretation. Is this what you are talking about?

Realize, of course, that we can apply lots of different meanings to the event of death and re-birth. For example, Buddhism and Hinduism probably interpret them much differently than Christianity does…

 

[TheGMan]

Well, in the same way, christianity is like that. When you first become a christian, you are so happy that Yeshua saved you from your sins.

Having recently been baptised I'm not sure about this. I don't honestly feel saved from my sins - which are multitudinous. It is more, for me, a recognition of what has been there all along. I was on the road to Emmaus rather than Damascus.

I still struggle with believing that God is real. It isn't an epistemic proposition. I never weighed up the evidence and came to the conclusion, "Yeah, this seems the most likely explanation to me." If it was completely plausible then it wouldn't be worth putting our faith in. For me it was a decision to trust rather than believe. And so far I haven't regretted it at all.

 

[Cleany]

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

even this most christ-divine centred statement from john (most probably written by the early christian church and reflecting their theology rather than jesus actual words) is saying something very profound, it is saying that jesus is the way to god, the truth of god and the life of god. he points to god, he shows us what god is like, he shows us the power of god.

the most major mistake of some modern christian beliefs (it is not necessary to name them), is to ignore jesus humanity and make him "god". but that is not the message of jesus, the message and purpose of jesus is to point us in the direction of god (the way), to show us what he is like (the truth), and to show us his power (the life).

so who is a christian? it is a person who has seen in jesus the reality of god, the person who has heard jesus and believed him, wondered at his wisdom and power. the person who has, because of the works of jesus realised or experienced something new about god, and there are many things to realise and experience!

questioning christian doctrines is a very sane and very necessary step in understanding and experiencing god for many people, but we must remember that asking these very question is a direct result of jesus works. questioning the nature of things, seeing god in things. god is not up there in the sky, he is everywhere and beyond, our questiongings and wonder are the beginning of the realisation of this. god cannot be contained or compartmentalised, his wonder is far beyond the imagination of anyone, that is why we worship him.

in my opinion the questions and ponderings that are being asked here are good ones, and more importantly they are christian ones. not because they adhere to some "christian doctrine" but because they are a result of the influence of jesus in our lives.

if the works of jesus christ make us wonder about god, make us question and discover - that isnt against christianity, it is fulfilling its purposes!

 

[CSMR]

Would there be any difference if you called yourself an "ignorant Christian" rather than an "agnostic Christian"? There is no Christian who is not ignorant - except that God regards him otherwise - but an agnostic Christian must be a member of a sort of movement, no? He or she would espouse a certain philosophy, separated from the common rung, living out a new trend. But the ignorant Christian is the common type, knowing nothing in himself, vain in his thinking like all others, except posessing the invisible quality of the Holy Spirit which interprets rituals, thoughts, symbols, parables, doctrines, as the knowledge of God - again, like all others.

 

[Im_A]

Would there be any difference if you called yourself an "ignorant Christian" rather than an "agnostic Christian"? There is no Christian who is not ignorant - except that God regards him otherwise - but an agnostic Christian must be a member of a sort of movement, no? He or she would espouse a certain philosophy, separated from the common rung, living out a new trend. But the ignorant Christian is the common type, knowing nothing in himself, vain in his thinking like all others, except posessing the invisible quality of the Holy Spirit which interprets rituals, thoughts, symbols, parables, doctrines, as the knowledge of God - again, like all others.

i personally don't see being an agnostic Christian as part of some movement, or some new trend. the skeptical believers have always existed.

personally, i see it in the light of being an agnostic Christian means, your skeptical of things that are majorly believed in, but you still try to follow your actions and life according to the teachings of Christ to the best of your ability.

does one have to accept the common/mainstream dogmatic (i'm not using that word in a negative tone btw) views of Christianity to follow Christ's teachings? does it take someone to believe in the myth of the Trinity, or any other myths in Christianity to love God with all your heart, soul and mind, to love your neighbor as yourself, to love as Christ loved?

i personally see the term useful for discussions on where one stands theologically, scientific issues in regards to the faith, philosophically...but in the end, all types of Christians are all the same...trying to do their best to follow Christ...in their failings and in their successes.

God Bless you CSMR! <><

 

[Multi-Elis]

For ignorant, refers to just not knowing. We are all ignorant, and need to understand that. But Agnositc, for me means that I don't believe there is a way to know... no method, no technique, no philosophy, no nothing.

Let me rectify this a little: There are people who know that God exists. Carl Jung is known to have said it, and so do certain NDEs say that. You know, it's the common "I don't believe there is a God, I know there is a God." I suppose this is because of some experiences that they have had, that I have not shared.
But even so, I just believe that it isn't humanly possible to know and to understand. All we can do is look through a filter, at the truth and at the reality. We can hope to widen our scope of understanding, we can hope to widen the number of filters we are aware of in order to get a more 3D image, but we cannot fully know or claim to know. It isn't in our human capacity. We can believe, we can hope, but we can't know.
Even those exceptions, such as NDEs and Jung, they are still bound by what they are able to "see". Some can "see more" and others less. They are still understanding and knowing facettes, even though they know that what they are looking at through their filters really is there.
I like to think that The Light, is too abstract a concept to truely understand, so it decided to reincarnate to what we know as Yeshua, and give us some help in being able to grasp Him. I think this is what is ment in the 1st Chapter of John.

 

[KCDAD]

"I don't believe there is a God, I know there is a God."

I know this from a rational experiencial understanding.

I know there is a source for all knowledge, love and understanding. I know there is a source for all life and existance. That source is God.

I don't know what God is other than ultimate trtuth, ultimate reality, ultimate existance...

 

[Multi-Elis]

I agree... It's good to read your affirmations.

I was thinking a couple of weeks ago that one way to love God with one's whole heart might and soul is to search for the Truth.

Sorry, I haven't been on this forum for so long, I was so busy!

 

[CSMR]

Let me rectify this a little: There are people who know that God exists. Carl Jung is known to have said it, and so do certain NDEs say that. You know, it's the common "I don't believe there is a God, I know there is a God." I suppose this is because of some experiences that they have had, that I have not shared.
But even so, I just believe that it isn't humanly possible to know and to understand. All we can do is look through a filter, at the truth and at the reality. We can hope to widen our scope of understanding, we can hope to widen the number of filters we are aware of in order to get a more 3D image, but we cannot fully know or claim to know. It isn't in our human capacity. We can believe, we can hope, but we can't know.
Even those exceptions, such as NDEs and Jung, they are still bound by what they are able to "see". Some can "see more" and others less.

If we don't know God we cannot know that these visions/understandings/filters are related to God. We cannot relate these visions to God. So it would be a mistake to refer to these visions as a limited understanding of God unless you are speaking of the doctrine of justification, by which our misunderstandings are declared understandings when the sinner is "declared righteous". But here we do not just have limited understanding of God but complete knowledge, "the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus".

So there is the natural, empirical person, who does not have any knowledge or vision or anything else of God. There are not special people who have some understanding (Rom 3). But the spiritual person in the supernatural grace of God has direct knowledge of God as he has (supernatually) revealed himself to us.

 

[Foon Nerfdahl]

Doubting Christianity is logical.

Doubting God is much more difficult to justify.

They are two very different things.

Christianity is based on some pretty irrational and illogical beliefs (to say nothing of bizarre and seemingly Pagan rituals).

Consider, for example, the question of what sin, exactly, have you personally done--that was bad enough to damn you to eternal torture?

Another question, similar but different.

What sin have you personally done that would be bad enough to require an innocent God to suffer a horrible torturous death to pay for your sin?

After you consider these and other questions about Christianity there is really only one conclusion that makes sense.

 

[Multi-Elis]

To CSMR, I actually have a hard time understanding what you are saying: This is what I understand that you imply from your post: that you have a complete knowlege of God, because you believe in Christ Jesus.
Do you really feel that way? Aside from biblical verses, and promises, do you know this to be true? What has deciding whether you have complete knowlege or not brought you? I mean, in theory, you are rihgt: who has seen the Son, has seen the Father. But what if seeing the Son is a process, and untill we see him completely, we are seeing God only in part?


Doubting God is difficult to justify, I get the impression that emotion plays a big part. Sometimes it's hard to be "praying" and feeling like you are talking to the air. Yet sometimes you just feel that in this horrible world, God still remembered to come down kiss you and help you keep going. You get surprised by love where it's least expected, and it's what I call God.

 

[Im_A]

Doubting God is difficult to justify, I get the impression that emotion plays a big part. Sometimes it's hard to be "praying" and feeling like you are talking to the air. Yet sometimes you just feel that in this horrible world, God still remembered to come down kiss you and help you keep going. You get surprised by love where it's least expected, and it's what I call God.

i don't think it is difficult to doubt God.

let's look at all the emotional connection with one's disbelief or belief in God i believe plays the most pivatol role in so called "discussions about God."

it's easy for us with faith to say we have reason and logic to believe in God. but throw it into the discussion with the non-believer, we are speaking right over them. two different paradigms that when one looks at them BOTH critically, it sheds a lot of light on the topic.

i have this problem with speculative deduction as the main source of proving that God is real, that believeing in some being that i can't see face to face, or hear His/Her/It's voice is actually logical and within reason. one of the greatest theologians, Martin Luther, said that one must pluck out the eyes of reason to believe. not that i hold too much credibility on Martin Luther, but even a highly intelligent man such as him, and a believer saw an important issue. does that mean i don't have faith? no. i have faith, but i'm not going to fancy myself, to make myself feel good that i'm being rational and logical to believe in some being we call "God". so i don't know anymore in regards to this topic. we believers pounding about how their views are so logical and rational. i don't see it anymore. faith isn't a rational thing. if our faith is based on what our eyes can see, and our minds can understand, then that faith might as well be dead. but then it makes living the faith a bit hard, because we're still born with logic and reasoning...so i don't know.

one chooses faith over logic and reason everytime to believe that there is a God as described in the religious texts that loves us so much, and that wants to help out humanity, and that either sent or allowed His only son to come in and be a scapegoat for the sin of the world.

so i think it's perfectly understandable to doubt God personally. batteling over emotions. batteling over methods of thinking to save our faith, when all we do is tap into our emotions to say, ok i have found this to keep me believeing. use the Bible as proof when there are other religions practically teaching the same differences, but Christians follow a heretical Jew, so within itself draws question as well...even tho i still believe in that "heretical Jews" words. is that logical? absolutely not.

i'm reminded of being in school. the teacher is telling us the problem, the truth, and i'm just a pupil angry cause i can't understand it in its totality, and i'm just solving individual problems out.

 

[Multi-Elis]

Tatted, thanks again and a million for your input.

I find that what you are saying sheds light on some of the difficult things I've been going through recently. I'd talk about it, if it wasn't for the fact that it's a bit complicated to explain in writing.

 

[Im_A]

Tatted, thanks again and a million for your input.

I find that what you are saying sheds light on some of the difficult things I've been going through recently. I'd talk about it, if it wasn't for the fact that it's a bit complicated to explain in writing.

your welcome as always, hope it helps in whatever way it does help!

always feel free to talk about whatever complicated issue you have