The "Orthobro" Movement Makes Orthodoxy Look Bad...But Are They Heretical?

[seashale76]

This is a pretty self-explanitory post. Let me say first that when I have conversations with those who call themselves "Orthodox" (i.e., attend Church, have a few icons, maybe are confirmed, etc) do not understand Church history, arguing the same, repetitive points against the 'two-lung' analogy with (no joke) one person telling me that they trust Jay Dyer more than their Orthodox priest. Is this a heretical movement within Orthodoxy? We hear many things about the zealous Catholics (Sedevacantists, Conclavists, etc) but they are heretical, and are condemned as such; but I do not see any condemnation from the Eastern lung over these folks.

They make Orthodoxy look really bad, what do yall think? Are they tolerable or just flat out erroneous/heretical?

They are absolutely cultists. I came across two very enlightening accounts of how Dyer and company have taken over Orthodox Christianity with their Orthobro Cult. These two links are lengthy but absolutely worth reading to get a better grip on exactly what is going on. As I've never been on Discord and have never watched Dyer, I only had a vague idea of the extent of their influence. I am, unfortunately, familiar with Fr. Heers (and almost got ensnared by his videos during Covid).

The main issue is that too many people from laity to clergy are ignoring this problem. It is a rather huge and dire issue. They are coming into your churches and have been catechized into a cult already, having been radicalized by the likes of Dyer and his like-minded minions and co-conspiritors.

From Orthobro to Orthodox

Jay Dyer and the Psy-op to Subvert

Edit: In a bizarre and macabre way, it is interesting to see how cults are now forming online as opposed to in person. I have personal experience with a now defrocked priest who had his own cult of personality in Kodiak, Alaska- who had also been in a cult called the Holy Order of MANS. There are interesting parallels considering DeLuca was a toxic narcissist with delusions of grandeur, as Dyer also appears to be.

Edit again: As a child, my family were members of an Assembly of God church, which is Pentecostal. Over the course of a couple of months, there were suddenly tons of new people in the church, all of whom knew each other. They took over Sunday School classes, they started teaching Children's Church, et cetera. They were proponents of Dominion Theology (Kingdom Now). They started ingratiating themselves with the pastor and influencing him. You see, their goal was to take over the church building and have it remove itself from the official denomination to something completely in their control. Ultimately, their scheme, in that particular instance, did not succeed. I shouldn't have to spell out how these Orthobro Dyerite Cultists are acting similarly.

 

[AveChristusRex]

They are absolutely cultists. I came across two very enlightening accounts of how Dyer and company have taken over Orthodox Christianity with their Orthobro Cult. These two links are lengthy but absolutely worth reading to get a better grip on exactly what is going on. As I've never been on Discord and have never watched Dyer, I only had a vague idea of the extent of their influence. I am, unfortunately, familiar with Fr. Heers (and almost got ensnared by his videos during Covid).

The main issue is that too many people from laity to clergy are ignoring this problem. It is a rather huge and dire issue. They are coming into your churches and have been catechized into a cult already, having been radicalized by the likes of Dyer and his like-minded minions and co-conspiritors.

From Orthobro to Orthodox

Jay Dyer and the Psy-op to Subvert

Edit: In a bizarre and macabre way, it is interesting to see how cults are now forming online as opposed to in person. I have personal experience with a now defrocked priest who had his own cult of personality in Kodiak, Alaska- who had also been in a cult called the Holy Order of MANS. There are interesting parallels considering DeLuca was a toxic narcissist with delusions of grandeur, as Dyer also appears to be.

Edit again: As a child, my family were members of an Assembly of God church, which is Pentecostal. Over the course of a couple of months, there were suddenly tons of new people in the church, all of whom knew each other. They took over Sunday School classes, they started teaching Children's Church, et cetera. They were proponents of Dominion Theology (Kingdom Now). They started ingratiating themselves with the pastor and influencing him. You see, their goal was to take over the church building and have it remove itself from the official denomination to something completely in their control. Ultimately, their scheme, in that particular instance, did not succeed. I shouldn't have to spell out how these Orthobro Dyerite Cultists are acting similarly.

Absolutely right, thank you for sharing. Blessed Leave-Taking of the Ascension to the our EC brothers!

 

[Not David]

They are absolutely cultists. I came across two very enlightening accounts of how Dyer and company have taken over Orthodox Christianity with their Orthobro Cult. These two links are lengthy but absolutely worth reading to get a better grip on exactly what is going on. As I've never been on Discord and have never watched Dyer, I only had a vague idea of the extent of their influence. I am, unfortunately, familiar with Fr. Heers (and almost got ensnared by his videos during Covid).

The main issue is that too many people from laity to clergy are ignoring this problem. It is a rather huge and dire issue. They are coming into your churches and have been catechized into a cult already, having been radicalized by the likes of Dyer and his like-minded minions and co-conspiritors.

From Orthobro to Orthodox

Jay Dyer and the Psy-op to Subvert

Edit: In a bizarre and macabre way, it is interesting to see how cults are now forming online as opposed to in person. I have personal experience with a now defrocked priest who had his own cult of personality in Kodiak, Alaska- who had also been in a cult called the Holy Order of MANS. There are interesting parallels considering DeLuca was a toxic narcissist with delusions of grandeur, as Dyer also appears to be.

Edit again: As a child, my family were members of an Assembly of God church, which is Pentecostal. Over the course of a couple of months, there were suddenly tons of new people in the church, all of whom knew each other. They took over Sunday School classes, they started teaching Children's Church, et cetera. They were proponents of Dominion Theology (Kingdom Now). They started ingratiating themselves with the pastor and influencing him. You see, their goal was to take over the church building and have it remove itself from the official denomination to something completely in their control. Ultimately, their scheme, in that particular instance, did not succeed. I shouldn't have to spell out how these Orthobro Dyerite Cultists are acting similarly.

Plenty of bishops do not allow Fr. Peter Heers's work to be distributed (even in my town by all parishes) and ROCOR published a statement about him:
“Regarding the case of Archpriest Peter Heers, the Synod resolved to remind the clergy and faithful that he is not blessed to serve, preach, or give lectures in parishes, monasteries or other institutions of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia”

But yeah, probably there should be more backslash regarding Jay Dyer.

 

[prodromos]

Plenty of bishops do not allow Fr. Peter Heers's work to be distributed (even in my town by all parishes) and ROCOR published a statement about him:
“Regarding the case of Archpriest Peter Heers, the Synod resolved to remind the clergy and faithful that he is not blessed to serve, preach, or give lectures in parishes, monasteries or other institutions of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia”

But yeah, probably there should be more backslash regarding Jay Dyer.

Can you link to the statement?
Do they elaborate as to why they have placed those restrictions?

 

[Not David]

Can you link to the statement?
Do they elaborate as to why they have placed those restrictions?

Holy Synod Takes Actions Relating to Former Nun Vassa Larin and Archpriest Peter Heers

As reported on the website of the Holy Synod: At its regular Paschal session, held this year in London, the Holy Synod of the ROCOR addressed issues relating to the former nun Vassa Larin and to th…

rocorinterorthodox.church

 

[prodromos]

Holy Synod Takes Actions Relating to Former Nun Vassa Larin and Archpriest Peter Heers

As reported on the website of the Holy Synod: At its regular Paschal session, held this year in London, the Holy Synod of the ROCOR addressed issues relating to the former nun Vassa Larin and to th…

rocorinterorthodox.church

Thank you.
One wonders what, if anything, the bishops are doing to resolve Fr Peter's canonical status.

 

[E.C.]

This is a pretty self-explanitory post. Let me say first that when I have conversations with those who call themselves "Orthodox" (i.e., attend Church, have a few icons, maybe are confirmed, etc) do not understand Church history, arguing the same, repetitive points against the 'two-lung' analogy with (no joke) one person telling me that they trust Jay Dyer more than their Orthodox priest. Is this a heretical movement within Orthodoxy? We hear many things about the zealous Catholics (Sedevacantists, Conclavists, etc) but they are heretical, and are condemned as such; but I do not see any condemnation from the Eastern lung over these folks.

They make Orthodoxy look really bad, what do yall think? Are they tolerable or just flat out erroneous/heretical?

They are severely misguided and unfortunately giving the rest of us a bad name.

Heretical? No. Pain in the butt? Yes.

A big problem with this phenomenon is that there are too many clergy who are a bit too eager to baptize people. I also feel that sometimes not enough emphasis is made in catechism on how we Orthodox are supposed to actually treat people; especially the non-Orthodox. Yes, we can learn all the theology and history and why we do things the way we do, but that doesn't mean anything if we don't treat people with love.

Thank you.
One wonders what, if anything, the bishops are doing to resolve Fr Peter's canonical status.

They're doing nothing. Personally, if he wants to be ROCOR so much, I think ROCOR ought to take him in and immediately hold a spiritual court upon his reception. At least that way the matter would likely be resolved instead of just allowing to fester.

 

[FireDragon76]

The phenomenon seems to be about a minority of young men attracted to Orthodoxy primarily due to perceived male chauvenism, orientalism and exoticism. And some clergy, themselves converts from evangelical Protestantism, are blind to these dynamics and don't see it as problematic, because the perceived failures of western modernity were often there somewhere in the background in their own conversion story.

There's a reason you don't see people like that convert to Episcopalianism, for instance. Episcopalianism isn't perceived as "exotic" or "anti-western", openly values women as equals in all aspects of church life, and isn't necessarily anti-modern, despite the fact that mystical symbolism and poetic language play a greater role in the religion, than in most other forms of Protestantism, or even Catholicism (at times).

 

[Not David]

The phenomenon seems to be about a minority of young men attracted to Orthodoxy primarily due to perceived male chauvenism, orientalism and exoticism. And some clergy, themselves converts from evangelical Protestantism, are blind to these dynamics and don't see it as problematic, because the perceived failures of western modernity were often there somewhere in the background in their own conversion story.

There's a reason you don't see people like that convert to Episcopalianism, for instance. Episcopalianism isn't perceived as "exotic" or "anti-western", openly values women as equals in all aspects of church life, and isn't necessarily anti-modern, despite the fact that mystical symbolism and poetic language play a greater role in the religion, than in most other forms of Protestantism, or even Catholicism (at times).

I think our bishops need to do a better job avoiding misrepresentation of Orthodox doctrine.

 

[FireDragon76]

They are severely misguided and unfortunately giving the rest of us a bad name.

Heretical? No. Pain in the butt? Yes.

A big problem with this phenomenon is that there are too many clergy who are a bit too eager to baptize people. I also feel that sometimes not enough emphasis is made in catechism on how we Orthodox are supposed to actually treat people; especially the non-Orthodox. Yes, we can learn all the theology and history and why we do things the way we do, but that doesn't mean anything if we don't treat people with love.

It's often a result within tensions within Orthodoxy itself, presented in a new cultural context, especially when it's flattened into something like a religious identity that can be personally appropriated. This is often the context in western culture, which usually understands religion primarily in terms of individually held propositions about reality or truth, within a cultural milieu of consumerism and appropriation. It becomes less a transformative reorintation, and more like an augmentation or "tweak" of existing attitudes, beliefs, and certantities, veiled behind religious performance. Not an unknowing with genuine reverence for mystery.

A more "authentic" deformation is found in Orthodoxy's heartland, where Orthodoxy often becomes a kind of identity that is appropriated nationally, because it's socially and politically useful.