The origins of atheism

JonFromMinnesota · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
just because a noise was heard and it was attributed to the big bang doesnt make it true its a theory that the noise was a cosmic microwave background radiation and a leftover from the big bang a theory isnt proof the noise could have been from something else .

Do you know the definition of a theory in the scientific context?
It's a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation

Davian · Sep 24, 2015

ecco said:
The Dictionary of Phrases per Colter

True Science

Any science that does not disagree with Colter's interpretation of the bible
Atheistic science

Any science that disagrees with Colter's interpretation of the bible
True Scientist

Any scientist that pursues True Science (see above)
Atheistic scientist

Any scientist that pursues Atheistic Science (see above)
Glad we cleared that up.

Colter said:
You are projecting your own habit of contempt prior to investigation onto me. Run of the mill knee-jerk atheist.

In what way was his post not accurate?

jenny1972 · Sep 24, 2015

JonFromMinnesota said:
Do you know the definition of a theory in the scientific context?
It's a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation

i dont find it to be convincing proof that the big bang and not God created the universe and by the above definition then the idea that the sound came from the big bang was not really even a theory but just an opinion

Davian · Sep 24, 2015

AV1611VET said:
It might be an intellectual position, but it is a spiritual problem.

If "spiritual" is, by every objective measure, indistinguishable from "imaginary", it follows that the "problem" you allude to is also imaginary.

GoldenBoy89 · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
i dont find it convincing proof

Yet, scientists who study these things do.... Puzzling!

jenny1972 · Sep 24, 2015

GoldenBoy89 said:
Yet, scientists who study these things do.... Puzzling!

not all scientists agree on everything even more puzzling , people have different opinions

AHH who-stole-my-name · Sep 24, 2015

ecco said:
Speaking for myself only. I became an atheist long before I encountered any hostility from theists. Quite the contrary. I was raised in a somewhat god believing non church going family. When I was around 10 or 11, they had me go to Sunday school. The very nice christian lady didn't talk about satan, or fire and brimstone or evil atheists. Instead we were taken through genesis complete with pictures of the ark with the giraffes' heads sticking out. I'm sure there was a lot more.

After a few Sundays, I dropped out. Soon thereafter, reflecting on what I had "learned", I realized that the whole god thing was silly and on a level with santa claus and comic book characters. That was a long time ago. The more I learned about the bible, religions and science, the more certain I became that my decision was right.

I have also wondered why very intelligent people could believe in such things. I know many religious people. What I have found is that religion is indoctrinated into the minds of children before they learn to walk or talk. It is like learning your native language. Once embedded, it's hard to overcome.

I don't think intelligence has much to do with it. I've come to the conclustion that ceratain people just have an enpty stop withing them that only religion can fill. It might be the hope thing or just having a place where they fit in. I don't know, but fromj most of the Athiests I know they have had certain difficulties with those who can't except the idea that some people just don't need religion.

GoldenBoy89 · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
not all scientists agree on everything even more puzzling , people have different opinions

All cosmologists agree the CMBr is proof of the Big Bang Theory.

LynnC · Sep 24, 2015

ecco said:
KJV

11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

So, Moses is inconsistent. Are you genuinely surprised?

In one part of the OT he states to kill all the little boys and take young girls. If the mindset here is killing little boys, then the mindset is to rape the young girls.
In neither do the females have any opportunity to say "NO". By today's standards it's rape and forcible captivity.

Hi ecco,
I'm not sure if you understood that I was concurring with you about the rape thing. I think you have shown that the Hebrew/Israelites indeed did treat women as property in Moses' time. The biggest thing I have a problem with when it comes to the qur'an, because yes, I feel that Muhammad was bringing back this practice which the Jewish faith(and definitely the Christian faith) had grown apart from. It seems to me that Muhammad didn't like this idea of women having equal status... maybe because he was under the thumb of the much older woman he was married to, and whom he was no doubt dependent on, since she was the wealthy merchant whom he had worked for. So when she died he made his own rules... he resurrected old testament (or Torah) teachings, under the guise that 'allah' (who was supposedly the Hebrew God) told him to do so.
For the record I believe if Muhammad heard from anyone, and it was this allah... this was not God, but the enemy of God using Muhammad to lead people astray to bring us to the point we come to today.

ecco said:
The early christians wanted to gain converts from wherever they could. That included hebrews. That is why they included writings from the tanakh into their scripture and called it "the Old Testament"

That's not a logical conclusion since there is little doubt that Yshwe(known as Jesus by the Greeks) was definitely a trained Hebrew who drew His followers from among the followers of the Jewish/Hebrew faith... i.e., remember Paul? and the arguments that occurred because the Jews didn't want to accept the gentiles?
Yshwe regularly spoke from, and referred to, the Hebrew scriptures. Yshwe was a Jew/Hebrew/Israelite and so were the first 'Christians', i.e., followers of Christ. The gentiles were 'grafted in' later through the Jew/Hebrew/Israelite Paul, who took the Word of God, the Good News of Christ, to the gentiles... to Rome, Corinth, Phillipa, Ephesus... etc.

JonFromMinnesota · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
not all scientists agree on everything even more puzzling , people have different opinions

Science doesn't rely on opinions. It relies on what the evidence tells them. If you disagree with a theory, you are free to submit a paper for peer review in attempts to falsify the theory. This is encouraged and the dream of scientists to prove something wrong.

SteveB28 · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
a delusion is something that isnt real our thoughts are real we really have them they exist its our consciousness and we have little control over our thoughts but they are very real , you have thoughts and so do i and every other human confirms that they too have thoughts so with all this evidence that thoughts do exist how can you possibly think that thoughts are a "delusion" because one human concluded that all his thoughts were not "real" somehow ?

Can I ask what you find objectionable about using a period at the end of a sentence? It would make your comments easier to read.

Now, the point I was making was this: just because your thoughts are "familiar" to you does not mean they represent reality. For most of his adult life, John Nash was afflicted with delusional thoughts. He thought they were real, because they seemed so real and "familiar". It took a great deal of effort and concentrated thinking on his part to finally be in a position whereby he could separate the delusional from the real.

So, I ask again: how do you know that the "thoughts" you get from Jesus are real and not a delusion?

ScottA · Sep 24, 2015

Davian said:
So you are unsure of the age of the universe?

Belief is not a conscious choice. It is not something that I can freely decide.

So you are God. Was this in the news? Did you write that into your book?

Perhaps you should consider getting a new dictionary.

Did I strike a nerve?

1. No, I'm sure. The confusion is with those who believe it has age.
2. Not buying the free will thing? Tell me then, what is your non-choice destiny for all eternity?
3. No, I am not God, any more than a tire is a car, fin is a fish, a hand is not a man, etc.. God and I are One.
4. Perhaps you should not limit your vocabulary to the such a crude media.
5. Perhaps I should have recommended salve instead.

jenny1972 · Sep 24, 2015

GoldenBoy89 said:
All cosmologists agree the CMBr is proof of the Big Bang Theory.

can you provide a link to the poll or source that shows that ALL cosmologists agree with that?

Davian · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
well you dont know i cant give you any proof other than just saying its what really happened

Then all I can to is to assume that you have simply imagined it.

ScottA · Sep 24, 2015

DogmaHunter said:
Person A's testimony says that an alien space ship came crashing down in his backyard.
Physical evidence shows that what fell in his backyard is actually just a small space rock.

Physical evidence trumps testimony. Every single time.

Okay. The evidence is all around you, make judgement of your own eternal fate.

DogmaHunter said:
Okay....

Vishnu, as soul of the entire cosmos, produces countless universes from his breathing and the pores of his skin. He enters each universe, as the universal soul. From his navel springs a lotus flower, upon which is born Brahma. Brahma performs austerity and creates the world from sound, beginning with the Gayatri-mantra (testimony)

I submit the universe as evidence (physical evidence).

One of the two testimonies is wrong.

SteveB28 · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
thats because the only evidence that will be believed when it comes to God is personal evidence given to individuals you can look up the world "miracles" but none of them will convince you even the ones that science cannot explain will not convince your doubting mind you will always think of some explanation ' well thats because science just hasnt advanced enough to explain it' or they didnt do enough tests or... nothing will convince you except God but since you have closed your heart and mind to the possibility of God your not open to that.

If this confused arrangement of words is meant to point towards my skepticism, you should be aware that I regard skeptical thinking as a key component of determining an accurate picture of reality.

JonFromMinnesota · Sep 24, 2015

jenny1972 said:
can you provide a link to the poll or source that shows that ALL cosmologists agree with that?

It's an important aspect to the field of cosmology. If a cosmologist doesn't understand the big bang theory, they likely can't do their job properly. I will leave you some links to help you understand it more.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_concepts.html
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

jenny1972 · Sep 24, 2015

SteveB28 said:
So, I ask again: how do you know that the "thoughts" you get from Jesus are real and not a delusion?

because i am not the only person that experiences this kind of inspiration its not just me if it was just me i would be open to the idea that i could just be delusional and the inspiration we both recieve has certain characteristics in common and too many things have happened concerning this common inspiration that random coincidence has long ago been ruled out .

jenny1972 · Sep 24, 2015

JonFromMinnesota said:
It's an important aspect to the field of cosmology. If a cosmologist doesn't understand the big bang theory, they likely can't do their job properly. I will leave you some links to help you understand it more.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_concepts.html
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

no i was wanting a link to the poll or source that showed that ALL cosmologists agreed that that noise was a result of the big bang

LynnC · Sep 24, 2015

ecco said:
Speaking for myself only. I became an atheist long before I encountered any hostility from theists. Quite the contrary. I was raised in a somewhat god believing non church going family. When I was around 10 or 11, they had me go to Sunday school. The very nice christian lady didn't talk about satan, or fire and brimstone or evil atheists. Instead we were taken through genesis complete with pictures of the ark with the giraffes' heads sticking out. I'm sure there was a lot more.

After a few Sundays, I dropped out. Soon thereafter, reflecting on what I had "learned", I realized that the whole god thing was silly and on a level with santa claus and comic book characters. That was a long time ago. The more I learned about the bible, religions and science, the more certain I became that my decision was right.

I have also wondered why very intelligent people could believe in such things. I know many religious people. What I have found is that religion is indoctrinated into the minds of children before they learn to walk or talk. It is like learning your native language. Once embedded, it's hard to overcome.

Greetings ecco,

Interesting thoughts. As a child, I too, was incredulous with some of the Bible stories... but as an adult I realize that every civilization, every culture, all parts of the world, have a flood story. This can't just be coincidence.
Then there's all the archaeological evidence that supports the things we read about in the Bible (with the exception of the Exodus from Egypt, and lack of evidence, even of slavery).

I have come to believe that the Hebrew people were good story tellers (they will say this of themselves even) and that alot of the tales were probably embellishments, ways to make the story interesting so that their history would be re-told and preserved. I do question how much was just what they made up about their own history. When I read the old testament literature, alot of it reads to me like human justifications for warring, i.e., bad behavior.
The people in the old testament aren't too admirable.
Jacob cheated his brother Esau
Laban cheated Jacob, and in return Jacob then cheated Laban
The fact that Moses was taken in by the Midianites and found his wife among them and married, and then came back and killed them all... yeah, not too admirable.
The king who 'held God's heart', David, was a womanizer, adulterer, and murderer...
In fact I often question if their god wasn't evil.
The patriarch of it all Abraham seemed to have honorable intentions when he set out on his own, a 'man of God', with a promise from God,
but the generations after him seem to go all to hell.

Like I said earlier, what I keep finding that I can't deny is Yshwe,
and he never denied the Jewish history, and that same God.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child...
but as an adult I understand,
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then(when we meet our maker) shall I know [in full]

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