Post-Trib Only The Origin of the Pre-tribulation

[stephen583]

When I was young and gullible I was a Pre-Trib Rapture believer, because that was what all Baptists believed. It never even occurred to me to question the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine. I only began to seriously read and study the Bible for myself when I reached 30 years of age. It instantly became clear to me the Pre-Trib doctrine represented some very "questionable" interpretations of Scripture. I won't highlight all the contradicting Scripture and its' dismissal by Pre-Tribulationists, suffice to say I found a mountain of evidence the Pre-Trib Rapture was nothing more than a clever twisting of the Scripture and a complete contrivance. On the other hand, the Post-Trib Rapture doctrine appears to be supported by a lot of Scripture, with no empirical Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

For me, in order for a doctrine to be valid, it must be consistent with the entire Scripture. You can't say, this or that is the Truth, so long as you reject or ignore any Scriptural evidence to the contrary, and accept a twisted interpretation of what Jesus, or the Apostles said. Personally, I don't see how anyone can believe in a doctrine that makes those arguments.

 

[farout]

When I was young and gullible I was a Pre-Trib Rapture believer, because that was what all Baptists believed. It never even occurred to me to question the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine. I only began to seriously read and study the Bible for myself when I reached 30 years of age. It instantly became clear to me the Pre-Trib doctrine represented some very "questionable" interpretations of Scripture. I won't highlight all the contradicting Scripture and its' dismissal by Pre-Tribulationists, suffice to say I found a mountain of evidence the Pre-Trib Rapture was nothing more than a clever twisting of the Scripture and a complete contrivance. On the other hand, the Post-Trib Rapture doctrine appears to be supported by a lot of Scripture, with no empirical Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

For me, in order for a doctrine to be valid, it must be consistent with the entire Scripture. You can't say, this or that is the Truth, so long as you reject or ignore any Scriptural evidence to the contrary, and accept a twisted interpretation of what Jesus, or the Apostles said. Personally, I don't see how anyone can believe in a doctrine that makes those arguments.

I would like to encourage you to get the book THE MEANING of the MILLENNIUM....FOUR VIEWS EDITED BY Robert G Clouse published by IVP

Perhaps with this book you will see how each view has merits, and some questions as to their view. But to say any view twists Scripture goes too far. Frankly I have dome much study in my Master degrees about this subject. I have many other resources I would be willing to share if you like. The import thing to keep in mind a large number of worthy Biblical scholars have taken the different view points as their own understanding of how their view fits into their entire view of Salvation. I have witnessed several debates between those who hold the different views.

Bare in mind NO ONE is twisting Scripture, each view sees Scripture in its entirety, not just a small section. The pretrib position has some very valid points like Rev. 3.10. It is well worth your and my time to search the Scripture to find the points we agree and which ones we don't agree with. Don't attack until you are able to gather all the views and then carefully examine which one you are willing to pitch your tent with.

At this moment in time I lean more to a midtrib point of view, only because it might be hard to know just when the tribulation starts and really gets full blown. I have change my mind a couple of times over the years. BUT, the more important of all issues in Scripture is your relationship with Jesus Christ. I find unless I am in the word at least once a day, and often several times a day, my soul gets weak. My prayer life often suffers the most. I get very tired and before I know it I have fallen asleep while praying. Keep up your faith, and now lets go serve the King.

 

[stephen583]

I've only changed my mind once and I will NEVER again be an adherent to the Pre-Tribulation doctrine. No argument by any Bible scholar (and I've read much of the commentaries on the subject as well) have had ANY effect on what I read in the Bible. Yes. Some of the Parables of Christ about the Time of the End could lend themselves to belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture, but Jesus says explicitly he taught in parables so unbelievers would not see, or hear the Truth. As I said before , only if you look at these Parables in isolation from the rest of the Gospel and teachings of the Apostles, can one justify belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine. IMO, No one who is "selectively" misrepresenting the Scripture can be trusted.

Although, there may be more scholarly merit to the Mid-Tribulation Position, (such as the statement in Revelation 11:18), this doctrine too ignores Scriptural evidence that clearly indicates a Post-Tribulation Rapture in the Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible.

Asking me to consider accepting competing doctrine in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, is the same as asking me to consider the Gospel of Christ, the teachings of the Apostles and the Revelation of Christ to be INVALID. The odds of that happening are NILL, I wouldn't entertain the idea for even a second.

 

[farout]

I've only changed my mind once and I will NEVER again be an adherent to the Pre-Tribulation doctrine. No argument by any Bible scholar (and I've read much of the commentaries on the subject as well) have had ANY effect on what I read in the Bible. Yes. Some of the Parables of Christ about the Time of the End could lend themselves to belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture, but Jesus says explicitly he taught in parables so unbelievers would not see, or hear the Truth. As I said before , only if you look at these Parables in isolation from the rest of the Gospel and teachings of the Apostles, can one justify belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine. IMO, No one who is "selectively" misrepresenting the Scripture can be trusted.

Although, there may be more scholarly merit to the Mid-Tribulation Position, (such as the statement in Revelation 11:18), this doctrine too ignores Scriptural evidence that clearly indicates a Post-Tribulation Rapture in the Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible.

Asking me to consider accepting competing doctrine in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, is the same as asking me to consider the Gospel of Christ, the teachings of the Apostles and the Revelation of Christ to be INVALID. The odds of that happening are NILL, I wouldn't entertain the idea for even a second.

Taking Scripture out of context is something that seems to happen on a regular basis, especially by those who attempt to say they have a complete understanding of any major Biblical subject. Rarely except for those who know Greek and Hebrew and other ancient languages can they say they know for sure what Scripture says. Translating any language from one to English is problematic as some words can not be accurately translated.

Commentaries are limited in giving some information. The better way would be a Parallel English / Greek New Testament. It is apparent you think the pre-trib Rapture is a distortion of what you believe is the truth. I would never go so far as to express such disdain for a theory which you may or may not have complete knowledge about. I have known Professors that are far more intelligent and have genuine full understanding of the Dispensational Premillennialists position. The same can be said for those who take the Historic Premillennialists, Postmillennialists, and the Amillennialismists views of Scripture. With ever view point there are strong points and in my opinion points I do not think I feel comfortable with. But Jesus called us to love one another, which means respect.

I do not know what possible evidence you might be suggesting there is "so much evidence to the contrary, is the same as asking me to consider the Gospel of Christ, the teachings of the Apostles and the Revelation of Christ to be INVALID" Would you be willing to share the Doctrines you see that happening to?

 

[Biblewriter]

I apologize for having posted in this thread. I did not notice it was "Post-Trib only."

 

[stephen583]

I do not know what possible evidence you might be suggesting there is "so much evidence to the contrary,

There are dozens of examples of Bible Scripture that explicitly state the Rapture comes at the return of Christ, and not one second before. Read 1 Thess. 4:16. It says the Rapture of the "dead and the living" does not occur, until the Lord himself "descends from the heavens" at the Second Coming. The Parable of the Tares says the tares will be gathered up FIRST and cast into the fire, and the angels will be the reapers at the end of the age, (Matthew 13:30). The Revelation gives the exact same chronology of events, the Wrath of God (Rev.14,15,16) proceeds the Second Coming (Rev.19) and the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev. 20:4-6). Nowhere in the Revelation is there ANY description of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

How can anyone who has read these Scriptures claim they do not directly contradict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine ?!

 

[farout]

There are dozens of examples of Bible Scripture that explicitly state the Rapture comes at the return of Christ, and not one second before. Read 1 Thess. 4:16. It says the Rapture of the "dead and the living" does not occur, until the Lord himself "descends from the heavens" at the Second Coming. The Parable of the Tares says the tares will be gathered up FIRST and cast into the fire, and the angels will be the reapers at the end of the age, (Matthew 13:30). The Revelation gives the exact same chronology of events, the Wrath of God (Rev.14,15,16) proceeds the Second Coming (Rev.19) and the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev. 20:4-6). Nowhere in the Revelation is there ANY description of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

How can anyone who has read these Scriptures claim they do not directly contradict a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine ?!

You MUST take Scripture in context with both the Old and New Testaments. I am not saying I agree with the Historical Prememillennialism or Dispensational Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Amillennialism. I do respect all of the view points and have studied at length about each point of view. I am educated enough to know making a choice is made with an open mind to where God still have the authority in my mind to allow the Holy Spirit to speak to me about these issues.

Keeping that in mind my focus is not so much in these different view points about the Millennium, but committed to FOLLOWING the Commands of Christ Jesus. For me that is number one priority. Love for one another John 13:34 as my self is not as easy as most think. I am looking daily for the return Christ, to me that means being ready. I do not when to expect The return of Jesus Christ. I do not know what the Tribulation will look like, but it may be we are entering or perhaps in it now. I see little comfort in knowing when the Tribulation will begin. I think being a witness in my everyday traffic pattern of life is where God has called me to be a example of HIS love.

 

[stephen583]

"WATCH ye therefore, and pray that you may be able to ESCAPE all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36).

"BLESSED is he that READETH, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy, and KEEP those things which are written therein: For The Time Is At Hand" (Revelation 1:3).

"A prudent man FORESEETH the evil, and HIDETH himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished" (Proverbs 27:12).

Like I said previously, I can do this ALL DAY LONG. The Gospel does not counsel anyone to be IGNORANT of the warnings of Bible Prophecy. It says exactly the opposite. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, (Rev.19:10). Do not despise Prophecy, ((1 Thess. 5:20-28). Neither does it promise the RAPTURE will SAVE anyone from the Tribulation.

"I pray not that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL" (John 17:15).

The claim there are MANY different competing interpretations of the Gospel, and ALL of them are EQUALLY VALID is completely unscriptural. There is only ONE Gospel, and any distortion of that Gospel is WRONG.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth NOT by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up SOME OTHER WAY, the same is a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I AM THE DOOR of the sheep;... by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved... The thief cometh not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY"
(John 10:7-10).

 

[tranquil]

"WATCH ye therefore, and pray that you may be able to ESCAPE all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36).

"BLESSED is he that READETH, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy, and KEEP those things which are written therein: For The Time Is At Hand" (Revelation 1:3).

"A prudent man FORESEETH the evil, and HIDETH himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished" (Proverbs 27:12).

Like I said previously, I can do this ALL DAY LONG. The Gospel does not counsel anyone to be IGNORANT of the warnings of Bible Prophecy. It says exactly the opposite. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, (Rev.19:10). Do not despise Prophecy, ((1 Thess. 5:20-28). Neither does it promise the RAPTURE will SAVE anyone from the Tribulation.

"I pray not that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL" (John 17:15).

The claim there are MANY different competing interpretations of the Gospel, and ALL of them are EQUALLY VALID is completely unscriptural. There is only ONE Gospel, and any distortion of that Gospel is WRONG.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth NOT by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up SOME OTHER WAY, the same is a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I AM THE DOOR of the sheep;... by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved... The thief cometh not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY"
(John 10:7-10).

"I pray not that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL" (John 17:15).

An entire industry has been built up to confuse people on this exact verse. Being kept from the evil is adamantly equated with being vacuumed up to heaven.

Jesus has given us the warnings. Heeding these warnings/ prophecy will help us to be 'kept from the evil'.

 

[farout]

"WATCH ye therefore, and pray that you may be able to ESCAPE all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36).

"BLESSED is he that READETH, and they that HEAR the words of this prophecy, and KEEP those things which are written therein: For The Time Is At Hand" (Revelation 1:3).

"A prudent man FORESEETH the evil, and HIDETH himself; but the simple pass on, and are punished" (Proverbs 27:12).

Like I said previously, I can do this ALL DAY LONG. The Gospel does not counsel anyone to be IGNORANT of the warnings of Bible Prophecy. It says exactly the opposite. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy, (Rev.19:10). Do not despise Prophecy, ((1 Thess. 5:20-28). Neither does it promise the RAPTURE will SAVE anyone from the Tribulation.

"I pray not that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL" (John 17:15).

The claim there are MANY different competing interpretations of the Gospel, and ALL of them are EQUALLY VALID is completely unscriptural. There is only ONE Gospel, and any distortion of that Gospel is WRONG.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth NOT by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up SOME OTHER WAY, the same is a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I AM THE DOOR of the sheep;... by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved... The thief cometh not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY"
(John 10:7-10).

Perhaps if you were to read a version of the Bible that was more current than 1779 you might get a more accurate view of the meaning. The NASB, ESV and the HCSB are so much more accurate and understandable. Just a suggestion.

 

[stephen583]

An entire industry has been built up to confuse people on this exact verse. Being kept from the evil is adamantly equated with being vacuumed up to heaven.

Exactly. An entire industry (movies, television, radio and print media) HAS RISEN to epedemic proportions in our culture soley for the purpose of perpetuating False Doctrine. The Apostle Paul warned us explicitly this would happen in the Last Days. "For the time will come when they shall not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts", shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Timothy 4:3).

Just look at the tens of millions of dollars generated by the "Left Behind" series of books and movies. The latest "Left Behind" movie featuring a performance by the blockbuster actor Nicholas Cage. What questionable doctrine are these popular books and movies selling ?... The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Myth of course. Every Sunday, there are half a dozen Evangelical programs on television hawking the same message, between numerous offering requests for money. That should tell you everything you need to know to figure out which doctrine is REAL and which one is a MYTH. Like journalists say, if you want to find out the TRUTH, all you have to do is "FOLLOW THE MONEY" !... It always leads you to the bad guy.

 

[AlasBabylon]

.

This world order has become so evil and perverted and the people... even "Christians".... so secular, reprobate and hedonistic... I keep thinking
how at this time in history... the vast majority of God's righteous people are now in the cemetery. Think about that for a minute. When God's
wrath is poured out... it will be poured out mostly on "vessels of dishonor fitted for destruction"... as in the "days of Noah" and "days of Lot."

Previously, God showed me Isaiah 57:1... the righteous die young and people don't understand it serves to protect them from a coming evil.

More recently, God revealed to me Isaiah 26:20... God's people entering their bed chambers until His wrath is passed. If you read that verse
in context [the previous verse refers to the resurrection]... those "bed chambers" appear to be the grave where God's people are "safe"
awaiting their resurrection at Christ's return.

The bottom line is this... here at the end of the age.... when evil has come to the full... God only has a remnant of righteous faithful believers.
Most of God's people are already in their "safe" place awaiting their resurrection. Being baptized Lutheran, I have a nice ink drawing of Luther
that my pastor gave me decades ago. In the drawing, Luther is protectively holding a Bible. Luther believed that God's people sleep until the
resurrection... and even though a thousand years might pass... from their perspective... time doesn't matter... their next conscious moment
will be Christ's return and their resurrection. That is what Luther expected... that he would sleep until the return of Christ woke him up.

When the evil crazy world depresses me [which happens quite often in these evil last days]... I look at Luther's image and I think... what a
blessed state you are in now... sleeping peacefully in Christ... unaware of the blasphemous. perverted, satanic evil that now stalks the planet.

.

 

[farout]

Exactly. An entire industry (movies, television, radio and print media) HAS RISEN to epedemic proportions in our culture soley for the purpose of perpetuating False Doctrine. The Apostle Paul warned us explicitly this would happen in the Last Days. "For the time will come when they shall not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts", shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Timothy 4:3).

Just look at the tens of millions of dollars generated by the "Left Behind" series of books and movies. The latest "Left Behind" movie featuring a performance by the blockbuster actor Nicholas Cage. What questionable doctrine are these popular books and movies selling ?... The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Myth of course. Every Sunday, there are half a dozen Evangelical programs on television hawking the same message, between numerous offering requests for money. That should tell you everything you need to know to figure out which doctrine is REAL and which one is a MYTH. Like journalists say, if you want to find out the TRUTH, all you have to do is "FOLLOW THE MONEY" !... It always leads you to the bad guy.

Stephen when you take out the eminent return of Jesus Christ you have lost any reason to preach the Gospel. But if as you state just what do you think the Bible teaches about the return of Christ Jesus? What do you believe, as you reject pre, post, just what do you believe the Bible teaches about when Jesus will come?

 

[stephen583]

What do you believe, as you reject pre, post, just what do you believe the Bible teaches about when Jesus will come?

"For this we say to you by the word of the LORD, that we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN until the Coming of the LORD, will NOT PRECEDE those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:15).


I believe in a "Post" Tribulation Rapture. That is to say, the Rapture occurs at the same time as the Second Coming. However, as described by the Apostle Paul, the DEAD who have fallen asleep in Christ will be resurrected first, then immediately afterwards... those of us who are ALIVE will be gathered together with Chirst in the clouds at His Second Coming.

The same chronology is mentioned again in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. Our gathering together with the Lord (The Rapture) does not occur until AFTER the falling away (the great apostasy), and the Man of Sin (the Anti-Christ/False Prophet) is revealed; "so that he as GOD sitteth in the temple of GOD, shewing himself that he is GOD". That same event, (The appearance of the Abomination of Desolation which stands in the Holy Place), is also mentioned in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:15) as being a Mid-Tribulation Period event. It happens when the Great Tribulation, (Second Half of Tribulations) begins.

So according to the teachings of the Apostle PAUL and the Testimony of Christ, The Rapture can ONLY be a POST Tribulation event. It's simple logic.

Why don't I believe in a Mid-Tribulation Rapture ? For the same reasons. The Rapture is described as occurring simultaneously with the Return of Christ (The Second Coming), as found in the Revelation. There is no possible way Christ returns during the Middle of the Tribulation Period. That popular, yet mistaken chronology by which the Church is whisked away in the Rapture before God's Wrath is poured out on the earth, is based solely on "conjecture".

The Mid-Tribulation Rapture isn't stated explicitly ANYWHERE in the Scripture, it has to be "COAXED" out of the Scripture by means of subjective implication. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can say a Mid-Tribulation Rapture is "implied" by the Scripture, when the Scripture says explicitly the Rapture and the Second Coming happen at the same time.

Does Jesus Return when the Second Half of Tribulations begins ??? I don't think so... Where is that in the Bible ? The Mid Trib doctrine is like trying to build a triangular shaped wheel that works. I'm not going to tear Matthew 24, the teachings of the Apostle Paul and the Revelation, out of the Bible, just to satisfy a Mid-Tribulation doctrine, because someone says they believe it's "implied" in the Scripture.

If someone believes a Mid-Tribulation Rapture is "implied", because it's impossible for GOD to deliver the righteous, while at the same time pouring out his Wrath upon the wicked... well... you'll just have to tear Genesis (Noah and the Ark) and Exodus (Moses' escape from Egypt) out of the Bible as well. Sorry, but I just don't buy the rational used by proponents of the Mid-Trib doctrine. It strikes me as being contrived, inaccurate and dismissive.

 

[Luke17:37]

Stephen when you take out the eminent return of Jesus Christ you have lost any reason to preach the Gospel. But if as you state just what do you think the Bible teaches about the return of Christ Jesus? What do you believe, as you reject pre, post, just what do you believe the Bible teaches about when Jesus will come?

How could an imminent (at any moment) return be foundational to the gospel?

The gospel saves sinners from eternal death, not martyrdom. There gospel has absolutely no connection to an imminent return.

Jesus is coming back.
Jesus has promised tribulation. Jesus did not promise a painless escape route before the Great Tribulation.
Jesus gave us many signs to recognize His coming, so until we see them all, it can't be imminent.

 

[AlasBabylon]

Jesus gave us many signs to recognize His coming, so until we see them all, it can't be imminent.

I know this...

Jesus said the end of the age would as in the "days of Noah" and "days of Lot"...
and both of those abominations are running amok !!

Gog's third world allies are invading and destroying all Christian homelands.

The church can't get any more "lukewarm" unless it goes full antichrist hedonistic...
which the blaspheming cultural marxist pope appears to be dong now !

.

 

[farout]

"For this we say to you by the word of the LORD, that we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN until the Coming of the LORD, will NOT PRECEDE those who have fallen asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:15).


I believe in a "Post" Tribulation Rapture. That is to say, the Rapture occurs at the same time as the Second Coming. However, as described by the Apostle Paul, the DEAD who have fallen asleep in Christ will be resurrected first, then immediately afterwards... those of us who are ALIVE will be gathered together with Chirst in the clouds at His Second Coming.

The same chronology is mentioned again in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. Our gathering together with the Lord (The Rapture) does not occur until AFTER the falling away (the great apostasy), and the Man of Sin (the Anti-Christ/False Prophet) is revealed; "so that he as GOD sitteth in the temple of GOD, shewing himself that he is GOD". That same event, (The appearance of the Abomination of Desolation which stands in the Holy Place), is also mentioned in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:15) as being a Mid-Tribulation Period event. It happens when the Great Tribulation, (Second Half of Tribulations) begins.

So according to the teachings of the Apostle PAUL and the Testimony of Christ, The Rapture can ONLY be a POST Tribulation event. It's simple logic.

Why don't I believe in a Mid-Tribulation Rapture ? For the same reasons. The Rapture is described as occurring simultaneously with the Return of Christ (The Second Coming), as found in the Revelation. There is no possible way Christ returns during the Middle of the Tribulation Period. That popular, yet mistaken chronology by which the Church is whisked away in the Rapture before God's Wrath is poured out on the earth, is based solely on "conjecture".

The Mid-Tribulation Rapture isn't stated explicitly ANYWHERE in the Scripture, it has to be "COAXED" out of the Scripture by means of subjective implication. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can say a Mid-Tribulation Rapture is "implied" by the Scripture, when the Scripture says explicitly the Rapture and the Second Coming happen at the same time.

Does Jesus Return when the Second Half of Tribulations begins ??? I don't think so... Where is that in the Bible ? The Mid Trib doctrine is like trying to build a triangular shaped wheel that works. I'm not going to tear Matthew 24, the teachings of the Apostle Paul and the Revelation, out of the Bible, just to satisfy a Mid-Tribulation doctrine, because someone says they believe it's "implied" in the Scripture.

If someone believes a Mid-Tribulation Rapture is "implied", because it's impossible for GOD to deliver the righteous, while at the same time pouring out his Wrath upon the wicked... well... you'll just have to tear Genesis (Noah and the Ark) and Exodus (Moses' escape from Egypt) out of the Bible as well. Sorry, but I just don't buy the rational used by proponents of the Mid-Trib doctrine. It strikes me as being contrived, inaccurate and dismissive.

Now, I will tell you. I hold basically the same position. I am sure you did not know that by what I was saying. That is because I try to show respect for all those who believe any of different views. I fully know and have studied all the four views of the Millennium and can debate from any one of them. I will say I still have some touchy points of Mid-tib and I doubt any view point will even be able to have a perfect understanding.

One question I am unsure of is how we will estimate when its Mid tribulation, or how do we know when the Tribulation starts? These are just two major questions many have. I can also have a leaning tor post-trib positions because of Matthew 24:29-31 after the tribulation, the Son of man will appear.where it says after the tribulation. At least that is my position as I see things. But I am careful in not making this an issue between my fellow believer's, and that's where John 13:34 comes into the picture.

Now how do you feel about what I have said?

 

[farout]

How could an imminent (at any moment) return be foundational to the gospel?

The gospel saves sinners from eternal death, not martyrdom. There gospel has absolutely no connection to an imminent return.

Jesus is coming back.
Jesus has promised tribulation. Jesus did not promise a painless escape route before the Great Tribulation.
Jesus gave us many signs to recognize His coming, so until we see them all, it can't be imminent.

We are to live in expectation of the return of Jesus at any time. Tribulation is happening right now, we may not see it but Christian brothers and sisters are being killed for their faith every hour of every day. You and I may be sheltered for right now in the USA but one has to just contact some of the Bible translators and you will see, look at those believers in Jordan, Egypt, and many of those countries in that area to see great tribulation. We are to be ready. the illustration of the virgins with the lamps and low oil tells to be ready at any moment. Jesus could come at any time. At least that is my view point.

 

[stephen583]

Now how do you feel about what I have said?

Well, the goal post I use for the beginning of the Great Tribulation Period (the Second Half of Tribulations) is Matthew 24:16 where the invasion of Judaea is described. That's pretty explicit, as far as a line of demarcation goes. I don't like using Matthew 24:15, because the wording can be interpreted in a couple of ways and it seems deliberately vague to me. Why does it say "holy place" instead of "temple building" if that's what it actually means ? I think the invasion of Judaea (The West Bank of Israel, and what was once the Palestinian Territory) is going to come on the heels of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 anyways.

The beginning of the Tribulation Period is a lot dicier. I don't like trying to interpret Daniel 9:27 as it relates to Matthew 24:15, for the same reason. The prophecy of Daniel 9:27 can be interpreted a couple of ways, depending on whether you use a literal OT Jewish translation, or you prefer a figurative Christian one.

There is another prophecy in Daniel that speaks of two kings, "their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed" (Daniel 11:27). I can't help but recall the September Washington D.C. meeting in 2015 where Barrack Obama toasted Vladimir Putin while exchanging hostile glares. In this meeting Putin (our ally in the War on Terror ?) was given the go ahead to destroy ISIS forces in Syria and Iraq. That spectical made me recall the prophecy of Daniel 11:27.

As I watched Russia trounce ISIS and the anti-Assad forces in Syria over the next six months, another End Time Bible prophecy came to mind from the Book of Revelation.

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast ? who is able to make war with him ?" (Revelation 13:3-4).

Didn't the Soviet receive a mortal wound in 1991 when the Soviet Union was dissolved ? Isn't Vladimir Putin now trying to resurrect the Soviet empire ? Weren't we fulfilling Revelation 13:4 when we partnered with Russia to destroy ISIS in Syria and Iraq ? It suddenly occurred to me, we might be well into the First Half of the Tribulation Period already, and not even know it.

I'm thoroughly convinced, that's exactly where we are now. About a third of the way through the first three and a half years of the beginning of the Tribulation Period... and everyone is totally blind to it. In fact, according to my reckoning of recent history , around 98 % of the Pre-Wrath Revelation prophecies have already been fulfilled. ISIS is cutting the heads off Arab Christians, crucifying them and taking them into captivity in Syria and Iraq for over a year already, even as this post is being typed, (Revelation 20:4).

Just a couple of eschatology things to consider.

 

[Luke17:37]

We are to live in expectation of the return of Jesus at any time. Tribulation is happening right now, we may not see it but Christian brothers and sisters are being killed for their faith every hour of every day. You and I may be sheltered for right now in the USA but one has to just contact some of the Bible translators and you will see, look at those believers in Jordan, Egypt, and many of those countries in that area to see great tribulation. We are to be ready. the illustration of the virgins with the lamps and low oil tells to be ready at any moment. Jesus could come at any time. At least that is my view point.

I disagree that He can come at any time, because the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin hasn't come (see 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). Most everything in Revelation hasn't happened either.

I don't think an imminent return was what Jesus was talking about in the parable of the virgins, or any of those parables (three in a row in Matthew 24 and 25). Instead, He seems to be highlighting the importance of keeping close watch over one's life and doctrine while waiting.

First, the three parables highlight Jesus' perceived lateness in the eyes of men.

Matthew 24:48
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’

Matthew 25:5
5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

Matthew 25:19
19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

The parable of the two servants is about not becoming a hypocrite.

The parable of the talents is about the necessity of bearing spiritual fruit (John 15:2, 6).

I believe the parable of the ten virgins is about apostasy due to incorrect assumptions. Each virgin has her own oil, and it can't be shared (just like our personal relationships with Jesus). The only difference I see between the wise and the foolish is the foolish virgins' lack of extra oil demonstrated their assumption that the bridegroom would come earlier. They weren't prepared for a long wait. I can't see the parable any other way. That is one of the reasons I'm so passionate to dialog with my brothers and sisters about end times, because I think it's perilous to go into the Tribulation with a hope in pre-Tribulation rapture.

Matthew 24:9-13
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

I think the many who are offended, the many who are deceived, the many who's love grows cold would have be able to endure more tribulation on account of Jesus if they didn't assume that they wouldn't be here for the Tribulation.