The Origen of All Modern Versions

[AVBunyan]

Let’s stir it up a bit - A quick history lesson showing the Origen of all modern versions: Many people have been sold a bill off goods – they’ve been taught that the new versions are just updated King James Bibles with new information. All modern versions can be traced back to a lost philosopher named Origen in the 3rd century A.D. A few comments were added for interest – some may find them worthless but that’s fine.

1. Origen – 3rd century philosopher (Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,) – Origen – 6 letters – number of man

2. Origen was from Alexandria, Egypt – 5 letters – number of death - (a type of the world, God called His Son out of that country; Joseph didn’t even want his bones to stay in Egypt)

3. Origen ran a school of philosophers (Col. 2:8).

4. Origen’s beliefs – didn’t believe the first three chapters of Genesis were literal, questioned the deity of Christ, works salvation, allegorized most of Bible

5. Decided to get into the Bible translation business; came up with a 5-column hexaphala (5 – the number of death) – had 4 of his philosophers (Col. 2:8) to help him – 4 being the number of the world. Each philosopher (Col. 2:8) took a column and put down what he thought the Old Testament said. Origen’s column was the 5th (5 – the number of death). The translations were written in Classical Greek (more complicated), not Koine Greek (the common spoken language which the Bibles of the real New Testament were written in).

6. This hexaphala sat around stinking up the place because nobody wanted it until Constantine was looking for some Old Testament Bibles for his new ecumenical denomination. He asked his bootlicker, Eusebius, where he could get some new Bibles. Esebius got all excited and said, “I know just the place!” So, he scampers down to Egypt, like a snake slithering down a drainpipe and asks Origen about where he could get some new versions. Origen says, “I’ve done some translating here, take a look at my 5th column.” (5 – the number of…you guessed it)

7. Eusebius takes 50 copies of Origen’s 5th column and brings them back to Constantine. Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus most likely came from these. They were written on velum scrolls, which is why they stayed in tact so long, plus, nobody read them – God didn’t have His hand on them. The scriptures were written on papyrus and wasted away because people read and copied them – in other words God used them.

8. From here they end up in Rome with its religion (Catholic).

9. From here they circulate around Italy, Spain, and France (Roman Catholic).

10. In 1400’s or so these manuscripts become the Duhay Rheims (Roman Catholic).

11. From there the Catholics take their version and go about conquering with the sword to the Americas.

12. The rest of the “Alexandrian bibles” stay locked up in Rome and monasteries. God didn’t want them circulated to the common people anyway.

13. These “bibles” were available to the KJV translators in 1611 and they ignored them because they knew junk when they saw it.

14. In 1881a conference was called to “update” the AV1611. Two “Christian” bible critics (Westcott and Hort) said they had the best and oldest manuscripts. Where do you think they got them? You got it – Vaticanus and Sinaiticus type stuff. They snuck them into the revision committee saying these were the best of the bunch and sold them as fish wraps disguised as manuscripts.

15. From this committee you got the RV 1881

16. America joined in the fun with their committee in 1901 – they used the same junk the RV came from and they came up with the RV1901 – from there it went to the RSV, NASV, Good News, Living Bible, NRSV, the New New New RSV, NIV, and all the rest of the new versions.

Well there it is – I’m sure there will be some grumbling in the barracks and I’m sure many will dispute my history but that is how I see it – the new versions are basically Catholic bibles – I’m sure Rome is tickled.

 

[ittarter]

Let’s stir it up a bit - A quick history lesson showing the Origen of all modern versions: Many people have been sold a bill off goods – they’ve been taught that the new versions are just updated King James Bibles with new information. All modern versions can be traced back to a lost philosopher named Origen in the 3rd century A.D. A few comments were added for interest – some may find them worthless but that’s fine.

What the modern world HAS been sold is that "new" is better than "old." If you want to find a legitimate argument in favor of using the AV, spend some time looking into how "new" is nowadays synonymous with "good," and "old" with "bad." Don't waste your time with this nonsense you've written. Please, support the AV, and please, find a historically and logically responsible way to do it. It is a beautiful translation, albeit with shortcomings, but certainly the best devotional read of the English translations -- second only to critical editions of the Hebrew and Greek Bibles, and in those cases only for purposes of academic study.

Let's have a brief look at your "history lesson."

1. Origen – 3rd century philosopher (Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,) – Origen – 6 letters – number of man

Couldn't help that, minus the AV, your name is made up of six letters too. Your numerology fails to impress.

2. Origen was from Alexandria, Egypt – 5 letters – number of death - (a type of the world, God called His Son out of that country; Joseph didn’t even want his bones to stay in Egypt)

So, by the same token, Moses (five letters) was born in Egypt, and we should conclude... what? that he is a servant of death as must as Origen was?

3. Origen ran a school of philosophers (Col. 2:8).

The Bible condemns "love of knowledge"? Say it ain't so! (You'd better read through Proverbs a few times, friend.)

4. Origen’s beliefs – didn’t believe the first three chapters of Genesis were literal, questioned the deity of Christ, works salvation, allegorized most of Bible

Well, YOU believe that the very people who institutionalized the doctrine of Christ's full divinity and humanity AND the Trinity were in fact "evil, evil Catholics," so who are you to judge someone's orthodoxy?

5. Decided to get into the Bible translation business; came up with a 5-column hexaphala (5 – the number of death) – had 4 of his philosophers (Col. 2:8) to help him – 4 being the number of the world. Each philosopher (Col. 2:8) took a column and put down what he thought the Old Testament said. Origen’s column was the 5th (5 – the number of death). The translations were written in Classical Greek (more complicated), not Koine Greek (the common spoken language which the Bibles of the real New Testament were written in).

Not many numbers left, are there? Why write in Koine Greek when the dialect had already died away? Is the AV similarly written in the "more complicated" Elizabethan English, vis-a-vis "the common spoken language" of people nowadays? Should we therefore ditch that version in favor of, what, the Street Bible?

6. This hexaphala sat around stinking up the place because nobody wanted it until Constantine was looking for some Old Testament Bibles for his new ecumenical denomination. He asked his bootlicker, Eusebius, where he could get some new Bibles. Esebius got all excited and said, “I know just the place!” So, he scampers down to Egypt, like a snake slithering down a drainpipe and asks Origen about where he could get some new versions. Origen says, “I’ve done some translating here, take a look at my 5th column.” (5 – the number of…you guessed it)

7. Eusebius takes 50 copies of Origen’s 5th column and brings them back to Constantine. Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus most likely came from these. They were written on velum scrolls, which is why they stayed in tact so long, plus, nobody read them – God didn’t have His hand on them. The scriptures were written on papyrus and wasted away because people read and copied them – in other words God used them.

It would be just awesome if you could substantiate this claim with actual evidence.

8. From here they end up in Rome with its religion (Catholic).

I like how anti-catholic you are -- how it makes you assume that Catholicism in the fourth century is the same as Catholicism in the sixteenth century is the same as Catholicism in the twenty-first century. Do you, by chance, see every German and Japanese person you meet in terms solely defined by the second world war?

11. From there the Catholics take their version and go about conquering with the sword to the Americas.

Much like the Puritans did, further north? Bringing syphilis and alcohol to the needy native american tribes?

12. The rest of the “Alexandrian bibles” stay locked up in Rome and monasteries. God didn’t want them circulated to the common people anyway.

Is that also why the KJV is falling into disuse nowadays? Is God now in favor of the NIV?

13. These “bibles” were available to the KJV translators in 1611 and they ignored them because they knew junk when they saw it.

It would be just awesome if you could substantiate this claim with actual evidence.

14. In 1881a conference was called to “update” the AV1611. Two “Christian” bible critics (Westcott and Hort) said they had the best and oldest manuscripts. Where do you think they got them? You got it – Vaticanus and Sinaiticus type stuff. They snuck them into the revision committee saying these were the best of the bunch and sold them as fish wraps disguised as manuscripts.

It would be just awesome if you could substantiate this claim with actual evidence.

Well there it is – I’m sure there will be some grumbling in the barracks and I’m sure many will dispute my history but that is how I see it – the new versions are basically Catholic bibles – I’m sure Rome is tickled.

I don't think Rome gives a ratcrap about the thousands of translations we have, and to assume otherwise may be the result of mere egoism.

Anyway, you seem to be pretty committed to the idea that the received text is a more reliable source for reconstructing original readings, so I'm not even going to attempt convincing you otherwise, but I hope that you will keep searching and find a more effective way of upholding the AV as one of the great literary works of the English language, and encouraging people to read it for its strengths, not because of the (often forced) supposed weaknesses of the alternatives.

 

[Christos Anesti]

3. Origen ran a school of philosophers (Col. 2:8).

He ran the Catechetical School of Alexandria. It wasn't a school of philosophy.

 

[kiwimac]

The KJV is NOT that standard by which all other English versions are judged. The KJV added verses and interpolations of verses which more modern versions have removed because they do not exist in the Greek or Hebrew. We have, since the 1600s, found older, better manuscripts which have brought us CLOSER to the autographs. God calls Egypt "his Children" whom he led, why then would an Egyptian origin for a series of MSS be a bad thing? More over he called the Living Word, even Jesus Christ, both into and out of Egypt.

 

[wayseer]

the new versions are basically Catholic bibles – I’m sure Rome is tickled.

Rome has held the light for nigh on two millennia which might be an inconvenient truth for many.

 

[razeontherock]

Anybody know what (relative to this thread) originals Eugene Peterson worked with, coming up with The Message? Same as the Catholic Bible, KJV, or what?

 

[Epiphoskei]

One objection. I have several, but I'll stick to this one.

When we say certain texts are Alexandrian, that does not mean they were made in Alexandria, or even that the text type originated in Egypt. We simply call it that because most of our texts were found in Egypt, which, given it has the best climate for the preservation of texts, means most of our oldest texts are going to be found there.

You cannot draw a connection between the Alexandrian text type and a certain Alexandrian bishop. The name is merely traditional.

 

[Mr Dave]

Anybody know what (relative to this thread) originals Eugene Peterson worked with, coming up with The Message? Same as the Catholic Bible, KJV, or what?

The preface to The Message says that Peterson used to be a teacher of Hebrew and Greek and "worked from the original Greek and Hebrew texts to guarantee authenticity." The work was then checked over by 15 recognised OT language scholars and 5 NT language scholars.

I gather from this that he used a variety of sources; (I presume as they are the recognised texts) for the OT the Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensia (among others, but something like this as he only mentions Hebrew for the OT and not Aramaic as well for books like Daniel) and probably the Nestlé Aland Greek new Testament (or equivalent). I cannot be certain in this, this is just speculation.

He uses things then which are common to Catholic Bibles and KJV but not limited to exactly the same sources (more have been discovered since they were translated, so there is more to make comparisons and judgements over certain passages).

Not the Latin Vulgate which is used for 'Catholic' Bibles (Latin, not Hebrew or Greek).

 

[Mr Dave]

^ Just looked in the preface to The Jerusalem Bible (the Catholic Bible), which says

"In a few places, the text adopted by the Editors differs from St Jerome's famous Latin version, from which the Vulgate and indirectly the A.V. are derived..."

Thought I'd say that before people pull me up on that one

 

[ittarter]

I gather from this that he used a variety of sources; (I presume as they are the recognised texts) for the OT the Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensia (among others, but something like this as he only mentions Hebrew for the OT and not Aramaic as well for books like Daniel)

You're aware the BHS includes both Hebrew and Aramaic, right?

 

[Mr Dave]

You're aware the BHS includes both Hebrew and Aramaic, right?

My bad

 

[ittarter]

It's okay -- the phrase "Hebrew Bible" is somewhat deceptive that way.

 

[Mr Dave]

Yeah, I was aware that not all the OT was Hebrew, and that Daniel amongst other parts were in Aramaic, I just assumed (foolishly) that the BHS had the Hebrew versions of these texts, and not the Aramaic.

 

[Assyrian]

1. Origen – 3rd century philosopher (Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,) – Origen – 6 letters – number of man

Origen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Origen Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs
That's 8 letters.

 

[Timothew]

Origen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Origen Greek: Ὠριγένης Ōrigénēs
That's 8 letters.

OK, now that's one too many letters. 7 is the divine number.

Take my name, for instance: Timothy. It has 7 letters, you can draw your own conclusions from that.

 

[Assyrian]

OK, now that's one too many letters. 7 is the divine number.

Take my name, for instance: Timothy. It has 7 letters, you can draw your own conclusions from that.

So why does your user name have 8?

 

[Timothew]

So why does your user name have 8?

'cause 2 of the letters t-h represent one greek letter, theta.

 

[Timothew]

So, although Timothew APPEARS to have 8 letters, it REALLY only has 7 letters.

 

[ittarter]

Yeah, with the choice of the "w" (double-u) I was thinking more in the direction of nine letters, but apparently you meant it to represent the Greek Omega.

Of course, in Greek the length of some names can change depending on the (grammatical) case... Is this why so many of us are daily both sinner and saint?

 

[Assyrian]

So, although Timothew APPEARS to have 8 letters, it REALLY only has 7 letters.

You say it really has 7, and odd number. I counted them there are 8, an even number. Having both 7 and 8 letters is really odd. But the only number that is both even and odd is infinity, does you name have an infinite number of letters?