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I agree that's what being a Christian is about. But is that what justifies us?
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I agree that's what being a Christian is about. But is that what justifies us?The analogy is not perfect, because you are correct, the parachute does continue to work regardless of what the person does. But God demands that we try tirelessly to continually improve and become more like Him. Christianity is not a passive experience. It is an active participation in demonstrating Christ to the world.
You can forfeit your inheritance with your sloppy sinful nature, for if you rely on flesh, of the flesh you will reap destruction.You can lose your salvation:
This is a very dangerous line of thinking. It empowers sloppy living. We should be continually aware that we should not sin.
God said to Him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, " Heb 5:5-61Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
We are justified when else do the things that Scripture says justify us. Rom 10:9-10 says that we are saved (justified) when we believe (exhibit faith) and confess Jesus as Lord. Acts 3:19 says we are forgiven (justified) when we repent. Acts 2:38 says we receive forgiveness (justification) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we repent and are baptized. Mark 16:16 says we are saved (justified) when we believe (exhibit faith) and are baptized.I agree that's what being a Christian is about. But is that what justifies us?
As you put it, "that could be taken in many ways." To some it simply means that we are reconciled through the Son of God, while others think you have to shoot lightning bolts out of your eye balls.The analogy is not perfect, because you are correct, the parachute does continue to work regardless of what the person does. But God demands that we try tirelessly to continually improve and become more like Him. Christianity is not a passive experience. It is an active participation in demonstrating Christ to the world.
But I can say those passages don't say anything different than believe. Repent can be said to mean that you change your mind from unbelief to belief. And Jesus says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned" not whoever does not believe - and is not baptised - will be condemned.We are justified when else do the things that Scripture says justify us. Rom 10:9-10 says that we are saved (justified) when we believe (exhibit faith) and confess Jesus as Lord. Acts 3:19 says we are forgiven (justified) when we repent. Acts 2:38 says we receive forgiveness (justification) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we repent and are baptized. Mark 16:16 says we are saved (justified) when we believe (exhibit faith) and are baptized.
There are many places where we are told simply to believe (exhibit faith). But that in no way overshadows these other passages that tell us what form that faith must take.
Concurred.But I can say those passages don't say anything different than believe. Repent can be said to mean that you change your mind from unbelief to belief. And Jesus says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned" not whoever does not believe - and is not baptised - will be condemned.
Those passages use the Greek word “pistis” which means faith. Even if you just think it is “belief” it is not just a mental assent. If you don’t do something different, if you don’t change, if you don’t obey, then you don’t really believe.But I can say those passages don't say anything different than believe.
No. Repentance is not just a change from unbelief to belief. Repentance is a 180 degree change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, choices, etc.Repent can be said to mean that you change your mind from unbelief to belief.
And if you don’t believe, being baptized just gets you wet. And when you look at Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, both say that it is during baptism that we are united with Jesus in His death and resurrection. The old man of sin goes into the water, and the new man comes out of the water. If you never go into the water, you never become the new person.And Jesus says "but whoever does not believe will be condemned" not whoever does not believe - and is not baptised - will be condemned.
We're going in circles now. I thought we already determined what real belief/faith is. That it's the kind of belief/faith that you're willing to stake your life on. Hence the skydiver's belief/faith in his parachute analogy.Those passages use the Greek word “pistis” which means faith. Even if you just think it is “belief” it is not just a mental assent. If you don’t do something different, if you don’t change, if you don’t obey, then you don’t really believe.
I can't help but notice that you seem to leave God out of the picture, when it comes to transformation. It's all self.No. Repentance is not just a change from unbelief to belief. Repentance is a 180 degree change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, choices, etc.
Does justification only take place after baptism? Yes or no.And if you don’t believe, being baptized just gets you wet. And when you look at Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, both say that it is during baptism that we are united with Jesus in His death and resurrection. The old man of sin goes into the water, and the new man comes out of the water. If you never go into the water, you never become the new person.
What did Paul do different after the Son of God was revealed to him?Those passages use the Greek word “pistis” which means faith. Even if you just think it is “belief” it is not just a mental assent. If you don’t do something different, if you don’t change, if you don’t obey, then you don’t really believe.
'Now I send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18No. Repentance is not just a change from unbelief to belief. Repentance is a 180 degree change in attitude, behavior, lifestyle, choices, etc.
I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, do works befitting repentance. ...And if you don’t believe, being baptized just gets you wet. And when you look at Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, both say that it is during baptism that we are united with Jesus in His death and resurrection. The old man of sin goes into the water, and the new man comes out of the water. If you never go into the water, you never become the new person.
Not at all. God gives the power, motivation, strength, and reward for change. Without Him there would be no reason, ability, or desire to change. He is the author and finisher of our faith.I can't help but notice that you seem to leave God out of the picture, when it comes to transformation. It's all self.
Yes: NT justification occurs during immersion in water after one has repented and confessed Jesus as Lord, having heard the Gospel and accepted it as truth.Does justification only take place after baptism? Yes or no.
I believe that's what Free Grace teaches. I figured eventually it would get to this point. It always does.Not at all. God gives the power, motivation, strength, and reward for change. Without Him there would be no reason, ability, or desire to change. He is the author and finisher of our faith.
Shouldn't new converts be baptised immediately on the spot then?Yes: NT justification occurs during immersion in water after one has repented and confessed Jesus as Lord, having heard the Gospel and accepted it as truth.
God’s love is not dependent upon us keeping His commandments, He loves everyone.John 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever …
John 14:2-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
These verses regarding receiving the Holy Spirit, show us that obedience to God is very important in His eyes. Although it could be said that the primary work is faith in Jesus (John 6:29), His ability to forgive us our sins, it does not stop there. The scripture strongly shows the need for repentance, turning away from, sin. The order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:
The Early Church Father Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.) in his First Apology states:
- We receive God’s commands
- If we keep them, God will love us
- God will manifest Himself to those He loves
Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.
… if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him.
Also Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew.
Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.
For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.
If you could save yourself, Christ died in vain.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Heb 5:9
If you were trying to save yourself, you wouldn't be a believer and after you're in Christ, it's a permanent arrangement.And just like you can't save yourself, you also can't keep yourself saved.
If you were trying to save yourself, you wouldn't be a believer
If you were trying to save yourself, you wouldn't be a believer and after you're in Christ, it's a permanent arrangement.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:11
And some were saved because in fact they trust in Christ.If you pay attention, you'll discover that most of the people on Christian Forums, believe they can lose their Salvation.
So, how do they try to prevent that? By trying to keep themselves saved.
1.) By works 2.) By water baptism 3.) By enduring 4.) By Abiding 5.) By Holding onto their Faith
And thats just a few ways that people who dont actually Trust in Christ, try to STAY SAVED.
And some were saved because in fact they trust in Christ.
Not very familiar with “Free Grace”, but on brief inspection I see some right and some wrong in what they believe. While initial faith is what brings salvation at the outset, good works must then be the fruit of such a one, or they will be cut off and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).I believe that's what Free Grace teaches. I figured eventually it would get to this point. It always does.
Absolutely they should! A review of every one of the conversation stories in Acts shows much haste on the part of the teacher to baptize their new disciples.Shouldn't new converts be baptised immediately on the spot then?
If there is no personal understanding and conviction on the part of the one baptized, there is no salvation. The baby neither understands nor has the ability to repent, not have they confessed Jesus as their Lord. So they just got wet when they were baptized as a youth.And what if they were already baptised when they were a baby or small child?
Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5.And what is the verse again that says you're not justified until someone baptises you?
d taylor has been posting Free Grace throughout this thread.Not very familiar with “Free Grace”, but on brief inspection I see some right and some wrong in what they believe. While initial faith is what brings salvation at the outset, good works must then be the fruit of such a one, or they will be cut off and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).
But they're usually not. I've never seen people being baptized at Billy Graham crusades and the like for example.Absolutely they should! A review of every one of the conversation stories in Acts shows much haste on the part of the teacher to baptize their new disciples.
And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Acts 8:36-38 from Acts 8:26-39.If there is no personal understanding and conviction on the part of the one baptized, there is no salvation. The baby neither understands nor has the ability to repent, not have they confessed Jesus as their Lord. So they just got wet when they were baptized as a youth.
Except for John 3:5, I don't see those verses saying anything like we are not justified until someone baptizes us. As for John 5:3, many if not most interpret "born of water" as meaning physical birth. Are you a member of the "Church of Christ" denomonation or similar?Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5.
Unfortunately, you are correct. Most denominations today teach that you are saved when you give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel, and then later you are baptized to “show outwardly the inner change”. But that is not what the Bible says.But they're usually not. I've never seen people being baptised at Billy Graham crusades and the like for example.
No. I am not a member of the Church of Christ, although on this topic I am in agreement with them.Except for John 3:5, I don't see those veses directly saying we are not justified until someone baptises us. As for John 5:3, many of not most interpret "born of water" as meaning physical birth. Are you a member of the "Church of Christ" denomonation or similar?
You had it right in the first place, the inheritance is based on faith and the self righteous who you think "is probably saved," stumbled.Faith is always counted by God as righteous and justification is always and only based on Faith.
It is impossible to please God without faith Abraham is the father of our faith
to him that worketh not, but believeth on GOD who > JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY>.... its your FAITH That is counted by God as righteousness
Let me show you a self righteous person who is probably saved..
An unbeliever can't grasp that he's dead in sin and transgression and has become unprofitable, the way of peace they have not known, etc.An unbeliever understands that they are a sinner and that they can do works...good works.......
A deceived person isn't born in Christ, since a born again person is purified by faith in Christ.A deceived person, born again, is trying to do the same works that the unbeliever is doing, and they believe these works are now a part of their Salvation. They must do them to STAY SAVED.
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, Christ, the one who is able to save and destroy. James 4:12 The Judge is standing at the door! James 5:8-11They read James who said..>"ill show you my faith by my works" and they interpret this to mean....."if im not doing any works, im not really saved".... or. "i do these works to keep from losing my salvation".
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