The Ontological Argument

Key

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You're comparing apples and oranges. A tournament is a voluntary competition of people who accept that they have the potential to lose. Life is not a voluntary competition, it is something forced upon us, since we do not choose to be born. Therefore the comparison is not only problematic but fallacious on the grounds of it being an inadequate analogy.

Well, you don't have to compete, but you are on a team, even if it is your own.

Such is life.

You can't suggest that I am trying to make an absolute claim here. I never claimed to be God and I never claimed to have the capacity to judge absolutely. But in terms of practicality, there is such a thing as making a tentative thesis that suffering loss of things and people is necessary since it is a necessary quality of life and goodness to suffer death and evil to understand life and goodness more fully. But the suffering of theft or murder is not the same as suffering necessary loss of things and people by temporal limitations upon their lifespans. When one is violated by another, the learning curve, so to speak, is affected differently.

So, the question is, how much must humans suffer before we change our ways and focus on preventing our suffering?

Think of all pain as a lesson. We learn such things are wrong when they hurt. So how much must we hurt, before we as a race, as a people, change and stop doing what hurts us?

We posses in our own abilities the power to end, or at the very least, alleviate a vast amount of our suffering. As such, the suffering we could prevent, would fall into the category of Unnecessary, whereupon the suffering that would require Gods divine intervention might be absolutely necessary for our survival.

I could be mistaken in suggesting there is unnecessary suffering, especially considering that a common translation of dukkha in Buddhism is suffering. But that translation is a bit mistaken, since life is not suffering perse, but unsatisfactoriness and unease. We never feel completely satisfied because of our initial clinging to phenomena as persistent and permanent in some fashion. At best I can claim there is suffering that is excessive and motivated by vices as opposed to virtues. A person committing genocide can affect a person to see how terrible genocide and murder are, but the person that committed genocide will suffer the fruits of their action, the "karma" in some sense, if you will.

The problem of evil exists because of a difficulty in the monotheistic worldview to determine anything as evil in and of itself. Evil commonly is regarded by Christians as a privation of good, so technically any evil thing is also by nature good, since it cannot but exist if it wasn't partially good. In which case, theodicy is little more than a way to reduce everything to a form of doublethink with the physical world. The physical world is evil only insofar as it derails from the "Creator's" will. But the Creator's will by nature is inscrutable in its fullness, so any attempt to conform to the Creator's will is an exercise in futility and only leaves one feeling more anxious, suffering dukkha, if you will. This seems to me a better formulation of the problem of evil in some sense.

By the creators allowance.

The fact that you think you need to enlighten me by words already seems to present a problem, since words are only partially capable of changing people's perspectives and their understandings. Experience is more primary to how we change our paradigms. You deny the problem of evil because you already insist that there is no real evil that is an absolute in any sense, since you insist everything evil is also by nature good since it is created by God.

You are engaging in the discussion, ergo, we are enlightening each other, are we not. And it seems from my view that there are things you are not grasping, so I am correcting you.

With Buddhism as I understand it, there is at least the admittance that evil is more significant and at least has value as a complement to good and not as a scapegoat to further ennoble goodness in and of itself as a property of God's essence.

The dualism in Christianity is ironically more what appears to be an exercise in subtraction, using evil to advance some greater good, whereas a nondualistic perspective suggests that evil and good multiply together to generate something that transcends our initial judgments of certain things as absolutely good or evil, but instead judge them as existing in a dynamic web, just as we exist alongside them.

Pain, is a way humans learn not to do something. It is a means of survival that we can suffer so we learn what is healthy and what is detrimental to us.

Our suffering as a whole, should be a warning sign that we as humans need to change, not a means by which to blame God for our ill fate.

God has made it clear that until every knee bows, every tongue confesses, and we as a whole learn our lesson and humble ourselves and accept him as our god and we as his people, we will suffer for our own ego, pride, and sins, right here, on earth.

The argument is only emotional if you argue that our emotions, intuitions, sympathy and empathy for the sufferings of others against excessive evil are pointless because we cannot think for ourselves. That is where our impasse exists.

The argument is an Emotional one. As you can see, I just invalidated it on a logical means above.

But, that won't change people's minds. Emotion determines weather you look at what I said and pause, think about it and open yourself up to it, or reject it at sight.

God Bless
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Only because you have an emotional tie to that group. IE: You sympathize with them, or you identify with them.

In either case, it makes your stand an emotional one, not one built off rational.
Don't be obtuse. You accused my argument of being wholly emotional. Now you've backtracked and said it merely involves emotion. I never denied having an emotional investment: as you say, I sympathise. What you spectacularly miss is that this investment is utterly irrelevant: the argument holds regardless of my personal feelings.

Your entire stand was invalidated when you bounced around from evil in the world to God is mean for sending people to hell.
Hardly: the problem of evil demonstrates that the existence of evil in the world (and the afterlife) conflicts with the professed existence of benevolent deities. The abhorrent suffering allegedly endured by the dead conflicts with the idea of just, merciful, loving gods. That conflict is divorced from emotion: I could relish the idea of eternal suffering, but that doesn't change the fact that X conflicts with Y.

You are lashing out at God, and no amount puffery you put around that will make what you are saying contain an iota of logic.
Ah, the old 'Atheist hates the god he doesn't believe in' card. Never grows old :thumbsup:

What Point?
That the justice and mercy of God conflicts with the injustice and cruelty of the afterlife - Christianity professes both, and so is untenable. Keep up.

And what part of "I gave up trying to convert people" did you miss?

Sorry, your entire post, from the beginning to the end, is nothing but emotional appeals, wrapped up in a plea's and deep fried in a whine fest.
A claim you've yet to substantiate. You made a claim, and then ran away when called on it. How surprising.

And, Umm, for the record, Just to clear this up for you, if I was to take what you said at value, you have made the claim that my God is evil, so... it's really sad to then watch you play the Christian Love card.
Yea, tragic, my heart is cleft in twain.

Anyway, as I said, you have your reasons, they are just purely emotional.

Just another statistic for the books I guess.
You're right: another atheist attempting a rational, civil discussion, only to be dismissed as 'emotional'. Truly, you're a paragon of virtue and Christ-like behaviour.
God Bless[/quote]
 
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Key

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Don't be obtuse. You accused my argument of being wholly emotional.

It is.

Now you've backtracked and said it merely involves emotion. I never denied having an emotional investment: as you say, I sympathise. What you spectacularly miss is that this investment is utterly irrelevant: the argument holds regardless of my personal feelings.

Your affiliation clouds your ability to make a judgment, IE: You can't think rationally about this because you are too heavily emotionality invested.

I never backtracked.

Your argument is one from emotion.

The sum totality of your stand is

"This is wrong because you feel it is wrong"


Hardly: the problem of evil demonstrates that the existence of evil in the world (and the afterlife) conflicts with the professed existence of benevolent deities. The abhorrent suffering allegedly endured by the dead conflicts with the idea of just, merciful, loving gods. That conflict is divorced from emotion: I could relish the idea of eternal suffering, but that doesn't change the fact that X conflicts with Y.

Huh? Again, Your emotions are running rampant here, again you dismiss the whole Heaven thing (purely because of your own fears and emotional about your fate of Hell).

Which is why I dismiss the rationally of what you are saying. if you looked at the whole picture and not just one myopic part driven by your emotional investment, you might provide to me that your motive is not purely emotional.

Ah, the old 'Atheist hates the god he doesn't believe in' card. Never grows old :thumbsup:

Yer telling me, I mean it's really sad at how much hostility I see from Atheist about God, it's pathetic to tell the truth.

But haters are gonna hate, what can ya do.

A claim you've yet to substantiate. You made a claim, and then ran away when called on it. How surprising.

Huh? No, I have made this claim, and I have stood by it. The fact that you can't see it, is not my problem.

You're right: another atheist attempting a rational, civil discussion, only to be dismissed as 'emotional'. Truly, you're a paragon of virtue and Christ-like behaviour.
God Bless

Attempt is an apt word, but then again, your "attempt" is in effect futile because you refuse acknowledge the "Heaven" aspect of the Christan religion because you are too emotionally invested to look past your own fate of Hell.

So as opposed to whining and saying "Nuhhuu Huuu.. Nope", step up and Prove me wrong by showing me you can look at the whole picture in a rational manner, or slink back to the shadows.

Either one is fine by me.

God Bless
 
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Key

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I wanted to address this Gem separately.

And, Umm, for the record, Just to clear this up for you, if I was to take what you said at value, you have made the claim that my God is evil, so... it's really sad to then watch you play the Christian Love card.


Yea, tragic, my heart is cleft in twain.

Proclaiming God is Evil but his Followers are supposed to be "loving"

Yah. Ok... that a big Neg to your reasoning abilities.

But, that's pretty much the sum totality of what I endure as "Logic and Rational" from Atheists in general, so if it makes you feel any better, you're par for the course.

God Bless
 
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ToHoldNothing

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Well, you don't have to compete, but you are on a team, even if it is your own.

Such is life.

Now you're trying to extend your analogy, which seems disingenuous. You never seemed to imply that the sports analogy was extended to the notion that I'm in the team destined to hell and you're in a team destined to heaven of sorts. Analogical reasoning hardly works unless you indicate from the beginning that it is an analogy to something else and not make it so obscure.


So, the question is, how much must humans suffer before we change our ways and focus on preventing our suffering?

Think of all pain as a lesson. We learn such things are wrong when they hurt. So how much must we hurt, before we as a race, as a people, change and stop doing what hurts us?

We posses in our own abilities the power to end, or at the very least, alleviate a vast amount of our suffering. As such, the suffering we could prevent, would fall into the category of Unnecessary, whereupon the suffering that would require Gods divine intervention might be absolutely necessary for our survival.
I do think of suffering and pain as a lesson,but at the same time one can argue there's such a thing as too much of either, because people can die and become otherwise significantly disabled in their ability to interact with society by suffering such immense losses or pain. I don't disagree with you in principle, that suffering and pain are means to an end that betters us. I disagree in practice that God has to be part of the formula of betterment. As Buddha says (allegedly, according to Angels and Demons by Dan Brown) "Each of us is a god. Each of us knows all. We need only to open our minds to hear our own wisdom," It's a rough understanding of Buddhism, but it is a start. However blasphemous you may think it is, the insight it has is valuable to me. Does that make me wrong? Prove it.


By the creators allowance.
See above




You are engaging in the discussion, ergo, we are enlightening each other, are we not. And it seems from my view that there are things you are not grasping, so I am correcting you.
The same could be applied to you, so your observation seems moot. If we both admit we could be wrong, that's a better start to a dialogue. A truly philosophical one, especially.

Pain, is a way humans learn not to do something. It is a means of survival that we can suffer so we learn what is healthy and what is detrimental to us.

Our suffering as a whole, should be a warning sign that we as humans need to change, not a means by which to blame God for our ill fate.

God has made it clear that until every knee bows, every tongue confesses, and we as a whole learn our lesson and humble ourselves and accept him as our god and we as his people, we will suffer for our own ego, pride, and sins, right here, on earth.
Again, see above. I don't disagree in principle, only in practice.

The argument is an Emotional one. As you can see, I just invalidated it on a logical means above.

But, that won't change people's minds. Emotion determines weather you look at what I said and pause, think about it and open yourself up to it, or reject it at sight.

Who says I have rejected it at sight? I see underneath the first layer and find common ground that may exist and I see it does in some sense. The problem is you're adding another ethical agent to the web of agent/patient causality in ethics. In this case, it makes humans both ethical agents and patients in a sense because God allows suffering in your worldview. While not a contradiction, it does pose category issues.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I wanted to address this Gem separately.



Proclaiming God is Evil but his Followers are supposed to be "loving"

Yah. Ok... that a big Neg to your reasoning abilities.
Why? Christianity commands its followers to be loving (Mark 12:28-31), and I conclude the Christian God to be, despite claims to the contrary, barbaric and malicious. You, naturally, disagree (do you do anything but?), but there we go.

But, that's pretty much the sum totality of what I endure as "Logic and Rational" from Atheists in general, so if it makes you feel any better, you're par for the course.
Blah blah ad hominem blah blah avoiding the point blah blah par for course.
 
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Key

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Why? Christianity commands its followers to be loving (Mark 12:28-31), and I conclude the Christian God to be, despite claims to the contrary, barbaric and malicious. You, naturally, disagree (do you do anything but?), but there we go.

You don't see the logical failure on your part regarding this, at all?

Blah blah ad hominem blah blah avoiding the point blah blah par for course.

As I said, purely emotional.

God Bless.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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You don't see the logical failure on your part regarding this, at all?
No. The Bible calls God loving, but details his malicious actions. How it describes how Christian should behave is irrelevant. The two are unrelated observations; there's no "logical failure" because it's not a logical argument.
 
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Key

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No. The Bible calls God loving, but details his malicious actions. How it describes how Christian should behave is irrelevant. The two are unrelated observations; there's no "logical failure" because it's not a logical argument.

:doh:

I give up.

God Bless
 
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Key

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Now you're trying to extend your analogy, which seems disingenuous.

The use of an analogy is to be able to discuss a complex topic in terms that can be understood by both parties, ergo. As the discussion extends or changes the use of the analogy is equally applied to those changes, thus, an analogy is not fixed or all encompassing at it's inception, but a mutable medium for exchange to follow ideas as they get presented.

Such is the very nature of discussing things though analogy, there is nothing underhanded about extending the analogy to cover new information as it arises.

Also, no analogy is prefect, again, this is part of what an analogy is to begin with thus any attempt to dissect the analogy as being not perfectly accurate is pointless, as if we could discuss the exacting nature of the subject mater, an analogy would not be needed at the onset.

Just wanted to clear that up for you.

God Bless
 
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ToHoldNothing

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The problem with analogy in a religious context, particularly soteriology, is that with a Christian worldview, you assume exclusive status of salvation and so any parallel or analogy would fail on similar grounds that occur with people trying to disprove the ontological argument on the grounds that you're creating a tautological truistic definition that defines whatever you are concerned with into existence.

If you already assume that salvation in a Christian context is like a game, then you've trivialized the idea it seems. Any parallel is hardly worth pursuing when you've done what Pascal did to belief and reduced it to a gamble. It's not necessarily as simple as I'm on one team and you're on another and one of us has to lose. With salvation, it's rarely so simple. It can work on a gradation where each person is saved at a different pace. It's not as if that's impossible for your god, right?
 
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LordTimothytheWise

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If it's logically valid (and sound, of course), then is that not the most convincing thing you will ever see?
Hardly.

But if the argument is wrong, as most people seem to think, what we 'feel' is irrelevant. Likewise, no matter how strongly we may 'feel' it is false, it might still be true.
That seems irrelevant to both you and Russel. As you first decided it was false then proceeded to pin down the 'why'. Apparently feelings that the argument is false seem to have been the determining factor here. The 'why' came later.


The initial premise is simply assumed right off the bat. What if there isn't a possible world in which there is a maximally great being? The argument ends up defining God to exist. Moreover, you could equally define 'maximal excellence' as 'omnipotent, omniscient, and morally corrupt', thereby proving the existence of an all-powerful evil deity as well - and I don't think Plantinga would concede to that.
Mind if I have a go?

I don't think it's an issue of arbitrary definitions, but of what already conceptually exists.

We don't need to call this particular being God, but what do we do with the concept itself?

As to your argument about redefining maximal excellence, I think the only reason you would redefine maximal excellence to add morally corrupt is because you're trying to argue that the definition is arbitrary to begin with, so we can reasonably suppose that morally corrupt isn't a descriptor that you would normally accept for a maximally excellent being.

Anyway, maybe one could argue there isn't a possible world wherein a maximally excellent being exists, but then you simply find yourself in a positive position arguing the existence of God is impossible.

It seems to me, what he's done is set up the argument so one must either conclude the existence of God is impossible (interestingly an argument that would be positive and holding the burden of proof), or that God exists. If the existence of God's existence was impossible all ontological arguments would fail anyway, and if one thinks God's existence is possible, it shouldn't be hard to agree that there is a possible world that God exists in.
 
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ToHoldNothing

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Even Aquinas, whom I find only nominal agreement with on principles of metaphysics and such, found the ontological argument questionable on the grounds that; even if we all agreed on the standards of a maximally excellent being or such, it doesn't follow that the being exists except in thought, not in fact. Aquinas' demonstration of God's existence was always a posteriori, not a priori, which is what the ontological argument strives to do, which honestly depends on modal logical arguments.
 
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