The one thing I can't understand...

[MinorityofOne]

Yo. :o My name is Minority of One, and I am awesome.

Moving on, there's one thing about Christianity that's been a major stumbling block for me: the Bible. First, some fact that I don't think any of you will disagree with!

~The Bible is the one and only accepted religious text of the Christian community.

~The Bible was written over a period of several hundred (maybe thousand?) years by many different authors.

~The Bible is, according to most Christians, divinely inspired by God.

~The Bible contains no falsehoods, errors, or contradictions - again, according to the Christian community.

Right?

Okay! Now, on to my primary question:

Why should I believe that any of the words contained in the Bible, let alone *all of them* are true and/or inspired by God?

I don't plan on debating with or arguing with any of you about the validity of your answers, but I WILL probably state why I do or do not understand your answers.

And just to clarify, by the 'Christian community' I mean the majority of Christ-followers.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Yo. :o My name is Minority of One, and I am awesome.

Moving on, there's one thing about Christianity that's been a major stumbling block for me: the Bible.

MY FRIEND,

Actually, your "major stumbling block" is your unwarranted feeling of "awesomeness." Unfortunately, God does not agree, His assessment, as spoken through His Prophet Isaiah, running more along the lines of, "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

Once THAT becomes clear to you, the Bible will make more sense and you will see it for what it is--God's life preserver, tossed to you because of His infinite Grace and eternal Love for you.

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[drich0150]

Why should I believe that any of the words contained in the Bible, let alone *all of them* are true and/or inspired by God?

For those who seek God the bible provides the tools to find him.. For those who do not, they will never find compelling enough "evidence" in scripture or outside of it to want to start and maintain a relationship with Him.

God will not force you to believe. He doesn't generally work that way, even if parts of the "christian community" might.

Scripture is not about forcing one to believe though indisputable acts or evidence. scripture is about a reckoning. you are forced to pick a side or make a decision as to what to do, or believe about The Father, Son and holy Spirit. Even in doubt or in your lack of action you have effectively chosen something.

 

[Van]

Hi Minorityofone, you said the Bible was your major stumbling block about Christianity. But if you take away the message of the Bible, how could anyone "believe in the name of Jesus?"

Then you posted what you called "facts," some of which are true. First, yes, the Bible is the one and only text of the Christian community. Those that accept the divine inspiration of other texts (like the Book of Mormon) are not part of mainstream Christianity. And yes, the Christian Community accepts that the Bible was written over a period of about 1500 years by about 40 different writers using three different languages on three different continents. And yes the Christian community accepts what the Bible proclaims, "all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that a man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

But you last statement reflects what some Christians believe, and others of the Christian community hold a less ignorant view. Which is that the Bible in the original autographs conveyed God's message accurately. But over time minor corruptions have been introduced by those who copied the text, such that discrepancies in numbers and place names can be found as well as some possible additions. However, the basic doctrines taught by the Bible have not been corrupted, so that we believe the Bible remains the reliable and trustworthy "Word of God."

In summary, there is no need for you to believe that "all" the words in the Bible are inspired by God. Rather you could believe that the message of the Bible is inspired by God.

May God Bless

 

[Lukaris]

There are some approaches one can take to the Bible to make understanding basic Christianity and these are by finding key parts of the New Testament (NT) that put the Old Testament (OT) into context. For example the Lord Jesus Christ basically sums up the OT in Matthew 7:12 and Matthew 22:35-40. One may wonder when reading some parts of the OT how does our Lord summarize it so easily into commands to love God and our neighbor? Answer: I (personally) do not know but when one acquires the love of His Gospel the seed of faith is planted. One can also understand the fall of man and sin by reading Romans 1 & 2 and even if reading Genesis remains a challenge the basic truth is in St. Paul's scripture (also a challenge but more direct). Another overview of the OT can be found in Acts 7 in the testimony of St. Stephen. From here one can read the sermon the mount in Matthew 5,6, & 7 to know the basic Gospel and John 1 to know Jesus Christ as God. The OT is still the word of God but the NT is its fulfillment as our Lord says but knowing the 10 commandments (Exodus 20) is still important too. To understand the anguish of living in fallen world the book of Job is invaluable; a fast track approach to that book can be made by reading chapters 31 to the end although eventually it should all be read. A lesson of accountability can be found in Ezekiel 18 and Ezekiel 33:12-20 and the book of Ecclesiastes gives an overview that even the so called "good" life is only temporary. Lastly, to get to the core of the Lord's Gospel one can read (in the NT) Mark 12 (focus on vs. 28-34), to ask for salvation: Romans 10 (vs. 9-13 in focus) , and the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. It is focusing on the Biblical basics that allow us to grow in grace although parts of scripture will remain hard to grasp or even take at times but St. Paul sums things up as to love, faith, & hope in 1 Corinthians 13:13.

 

[salida]

MinorityofOne-

I will show you some evidence out of much more. Just because I share this with you doesn't mean you will believe it. People hear many times what they want and what feels good to them only. First, I stongly suggest you read, The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell(it would stand up in a court of law concerning biblical overwhelming evidence). Josh started out trying to prove the bible wrong and it backfired on him-now he is a christian. Next, Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest). Theres - www.TheBibleProofBook.com

Biblical Circumstantial Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

Are you awsome? Well, see. Go to: Are you a good person? http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ Can you keep all 10 Commandments 100% of the time all the time? Only Jesus did. I think Jesus is awsome!

 

[MinorityofOne]

..."All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

Once THAT becomes clear to you, the Bible will make more sense and you will see it for what it is--God's life preserver, tossed to you because of His infinite Grace and eternal Love for you...

Yes, the Bible is a 'life-preserver' to save us from sin and hellfire, according to the Christian community... but guilt about my transgressions and fear of death/hell are not going to be my reasons to believe in the God of 'infinite Grace and eternal love'. The 'I am awesome' statement was meant to be a little joke, not a statement of fact, by the way... I mean, how awesome am I compared to the God of the Bible, or the gods of /any/ religious text? Not very.

For those who seek God the bible provides the tools to find him.. For those who do not, they will never find compelling enough "evidence" in scripture or outside of it to want to start and maintain a relationship with Him.

God will not force you to believe. He doesn't generally work that way, even if parts of the "christian community" might.

Scripture is not about forcing one to believe though indisputable acts or evidence. scripture is about a reckoning. you are forced to pick a side or make a decision as to what to do, or believe about The Father, Son and holy Spirit. Even in doubt or in your lack of action you have effectively chosen something.

I've been living the Christian 'lifestyle' since a young age - prayer, fasting, studying the Word, fellowship with other believers (and non-believers), missionary work, ministry... it's all been a big part of my life, but I have never one 'experienced' God as so many other Christians claim to have done. I believe that (most) of the core message of the New Testament is positive, regardless of how true Jesus' divinity is, and if everyone followed the Golden Rule I sincerely believe this Earth would be as close to perfect as possible... so I've stuck with the church even as my doubts have slowly accumulated over the years... and just because I like the message of the Bible doesn't mean any of the events written in it - include the accounts of Jesus life - are true.

I want to experience God. I want to believe. I DO believe that there is ~something~ greater than us humans out there somewhere... but I'm not so sure that it's the God of the Bible.

Hi Minorityofone, you said the Bible was your major stumbling block about Christianity. But if you take away the message of the Bible, how could anyone "believe in the name of Jesus?"

Exactly!

...But you last statement reflects what some Christians believe, and others of the Christian community hold a less ignorant view. Which is that the Bible in the original autographs conveyed God's message accurately. But over time minor corruptions have been introduced by those who copied the text, such that discrepancies in numbers and place names can be found as well as some possible additions. However, the basic doctrines taught by the Bible have not been corrupted, so that we believe the Bible remains the reliable and trustworthy "Word of God."

In summary, there is no need for you to believe that "all" the words in the Bible are inspired by God. Rather you could believe that the message of the Bible is inspired by God.

May God Bless

That's comforting to know, and is the most helpful answer I've received yet. Thank you. As a side question, does anyone know why many of the books written about Jesus/God in the early A.D. were omitted from the Bible? I know there are other gospels out there, even, that were excluded from the Bible by the men who assembled it...

There are some approaches one can take to the Bible to make understanding basic Christianity and these are by finding key parts of the New Testament (NT) that put the Old Testament (OT) into context. For example the Lord Jesus Christ basically sums up the OT in Matthew 7:12 and Matthew 22:35-40. One may wonder when reading some parts of the OT how does our Lord summarize it so easily into commands to love God and our neighbor? Answer: I (personally) do not know but when one acquires the love of His Gospel the seed of faith is planted. One can also understand the fall of man and sin by reading Romans 1 & 2 and even if reading Genesis remains a challenge the basic truth is in St. Paul's scripture (also a challenge but more direct). Another overview of the OT can be found in Acts 7 in the testimony of St. Stephen. From here one can read the sermon the mount in Matthew 5,6, & 7 to know the basic Gospel and John 1 to know Jesus Christ as God. The OT is still the word of God but the NT is its fulfillment as our Lord says but knowing the 10 commandments (Exodus 20) is still important too. To understand the anguish of living in fallen world the book of Job is invaluable; a fast track approach to that book can be made by reading chapters 31 to the end although eventually it should all be read. A lesson of accountability can be found in Ezekiel 18 and Ezekiel 33:12-20 and the book of Ecclesiastes gives an overview that even the so called "good" life is only temporary. Lastly, to get to the core of the Lord's Gospel one can read (in the NT) Mark 12 (focus on vs. 28-34), to ask for salvation: Romans 10 (vs. 9-13 in focus) , and the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. It is focusing on the Biblical basics that allow us to grow in grace although parts of scripture will remain hard to grasp or even take at times but St. Paul sums things up as to love, faith, & hope in 1 Corinthians 13:13.

Oh yes, I've read the book cover-to-cover a number of times... I can hardly claim to have a true understanding of it, but I really enjoyed big chunks of it. Judges had some of the best stories in *any* ancient text I've read, and Roman, Acts, and Luke have some inspiring, uplifting verses... but I've read and enjoyed many other holy books from other faiths, too. Thanks for info on improving my understanding of scripture,Lukaris.

 

[MinorityofOne]

Whoops, I missed responding to someone!

MinorityofOne-

I will show you some evidence out of much more. Just because I share this with you doesn't mean you will believe it. People hear many times what they want and what feels good to them only. First, I stongly suggest you read, The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell(it would stand up in a court of law concerning biblical overwhelming evidence). Josh started out trying to prove the bible wrong and it backfired on him-now he is a christian. Next, Examine the Evidence by Muncaster(a former athiest). Theres - www.TheBibleProofBook.com

'People hear many times what they want and what feels good to them only?' Yes, that's true, but you could certainly level that statement against anyone who disagrees with you... and, perhaps, at yourself!

I actually read 'The Evidence That Demands a verdict based on a number of suggestions, including yours (you recommended it several months ago), and I didn't find it very compelling, sorry to say. Maybe Examine the Evidence should be my next step?

Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible...

Those aren't really 'evidence' to me, and I'll explain why. The gospels were written after the 'prophesies' were made, and these prophecies were widely known in the early A.D. The authors of the new testament could have CLAIMED that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, even if that was not the case; perhaps this is why people doubted him during his lifetime, as the Bible itself states?

These would only be 'evidence' to someone who already believes that the Bible is absolutely true, and I'm not one of those people right now!

EXTERNAL EVIDENCES

Tyre still exists, even though it has (probably) been destroyed and rebuilt since that prophecy was written. Babylon is also rebuilt, although it's not a real, inhabited city... Saddam Hussein had the ancient city partially reconstructed for some crazy reason.

CONSISTENCY

Now, I could be wrong about this, but I believe the men that assembled the Bible in the early A.D. *excluded* all the books and gospels with inconsistencies, and that is why the Bible contains few (if any) contradictions. I know there was a 'Gospel of Judas' that surfaced a while ago, there's also a 'Gospel of Thomas'...

DOCUMENTS THAT PROVE THE BIBLE IS TRUE

If those documents prove the Bible is true, does that mean that you believe the documents are true? Because Gilgamesh depicts a superhero and his sidekick teaming up to defeat a Sumerian god.

CAN YOU KEEP THE TEN COMMANDMENTS 100% OF THE TIME?

Nope, but if I don't believe in the words of the Bible, why would I believe that Jesus kept them 100% of the time? D:


Anything I didn't address I don't disagree with at all! I think. Unless I missed something?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Yes, the Bible is a 'life-preserver' to save us from sin and hellfire, according to the Christian community... but guilt about my transgressions and fear of death/hell are not going to be my reasons to believe in the God of 'infinite Grace and eternal love'. The 'I am awesome' statement was meant to be a little joke, not a statement of fact, by the way... I mean, how awesome am I compared to the God of the Bible, or the gods of /any/ religious text? Not very.

MY BROTHER,

Actually, the Bible is a "life-preserver" to save us from ourselves. God's written Word is an "Owner's Manual" for Abba's Children that they may become educated regarding how to achieve maximum happiness and fullness of life--in this age and in the age to come.

You are indeed an "awesome" creation of an "awesome" God. The point is that we are to live out that "awesomeness" and develop fully into what we were created to be--the Image and Likeness of God.

If we make the mistake of seeing ourselves as "awesome" in and of ourselves--even though we are separated from a transforming relationship with Abba--then we are indeed lost in darkness. i am glad to hear that you were only making a joke in this regard--although, given the circumstances, not a very humerous one at all.

MAY GOD OPEN YOUR HEART AND MIND TO HIS TRUTH AND GUIDE YOU INTO BECOMING WHAT YOU WERE CREATED TO BE!

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[Van]

Hi MinorityofOne, I do not think the early acceptance of the four Canonical Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, was based on avoiding "inconsistencies." Rather, these four were widely accepted at the time the Canon was being documented, whereas other texts came later and from second hand sources. For example, many believe the Gospels of Judas and Thomas were written in the second half of the second century, or nearly 100 years after our four.

Folks that reject the Bible say the bible is full of contradictions, and then if that assertion is deconstructed, they say the lack of contradictions indicates it was put together not on the basis of truth, but on the basis of avoiding contradictions. Or in other words, a seemingly no win situation. I have known several strong willed individuals in my life, and rather than saying they want to do this, they find an endless list of problems with any other option than the one they have chosen. Our job, as believers in Christ, is to present the gospel accurately, and demonstrate the gospel by our lives. Many people choose to reject it, and they have compelling reasons for their choices.

May God Bless

 

[drich0150]

I've been living the Christian 'lifestyle' since a young age - prayer, fasting, studying the Word, fellowship with other believers (and non-believers), missionary work, ministry... it's all been a big part of my life, but I have never one 'experienced' God as so many other Christians claim to have done.

"Living a christian life style" (as you have already proved) has little to do with Starting and maintaining a relationship with God. Just like living a Korean life style don't make you a Korean. Granted it makes you aware of the mechanics behind the culture, but even so, it doesn't change your heritage.

As I said in the beginning scripture is for all of those who seek to start, and maintain a relationship with The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Feeding a curiosity is not the purpose of scripture. God is not a god of amusements nor a god who displays signs and wonders to simply give his children a sense of His being.

God is a God of Love. If you wish to know Him then Approach Him, through the means of love He has left for us..

so I've stuck with the church even as my doubts have slowly accumulated over the years... and just because I like the message of the Bible doesn't mean any of the events written in it - include the accounts of Jesus life - are true.

Also know that "sticking with the church" has little to do with a true relationship with God. Just like "Sticking" with your wife after an affair doesn't mean you love Her, nor does simply being there in a marriage means your a father to your children..

To be in love with your wife your do indeed must be present in the relationship, but you must also choose to love her, and forgive her if necessary. Just like being a father is more than bragging about one's attendance in the kids lives. You must actively want to be apart of that relationship..

If you want to be in a relationship with the Lord do not go before Him looking to have Him, prove Himself to you, but Humble yourself before the Lord and allow Him to lift you up.

I want to experience God. I want to believe. I DO believe that there is ~something~ greater than us humans out there somewhere... but I'm not so sure that it's the God of the Bible.

If there is ~something~ greater than the God of the Bible out there, then why hasn't it made any effort to contact or preserve any type of relationship the whole of humanity?

 

[MinorityofOne]

Actually, the Bible is a "life-preserver" to save us from ourselves. God's written Word is an "Owner's Manual" for Abba's Children that they may become educated regarding how to achieve maximum happiness and fullness of life--in this age and in the age to come.

I've been happier since I've begun seriously questioning my faith - and I'm not the only one who thinks so. In the months immediately after I started questioning my faith in the Christian God, friends and family remarked on how 'different' and 'happy' I seemed - even some of my most fervently Christian friends believed I'd experienced a positive change before I told them that my faith was less than rock-solid! Of course, then they were a little concerned (as I expected)...

I want the Christian God to open me to his truth, if he does, in fact, exist - millions upon millions of Christians claim to have experienced a personal relationship with God, even those that have been converted for very short periods of time. Which brings me to the next topic...

Hi MinorityofOne, I do not think the early acceptance of the four Canonical Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, was based on avoiding "inconsistencies." Rather, these four were widely accepted at the time the Canon was being documented, whereas other texts came later and from second hand sources. For example, many believe the Gospels of Judas and Thomas were written in the second half of the second century, or nearly 100 years after our four.

Folks that reject the Bible say the bible is full of contradictions, and then if that assertion is deconstructed, they say the lack of contradictions indicates it was put together not on the basis of truth, but on the basis of avoiding contradictions. Or in other words, a seemingly no win situation. I have known several strong willed individuals in my life, and rather than saying they want to do this, they find an endless list of problems with any other option than the one they have chosen. Our job, as believers in Christ, is to present the gospel accurately, and demonstrate the gospel by our lives. Many people choose to reject it, and they have compelling reasons for their choices.

May God Bless

Sure, on the surface the Bible might have some contradictions... if I cherry-picked scriptures out of context, I'm sure I could find two that disagree. However, I'm convinced that there are no inconsistencies in the Bible that interfere with it's core message, for certain. I'm still not certain why God seems to have a personality change sometime between the Old and New Testaments, but I chalk that up to ignorance.

It might have been put together because the men that assembled it were after the truth, or it could have been because they were just trying to be consistent... I don't really know, I have no real insight into the minds of the men who assembled it, and it isn't a big stumbling block for me... in fact it's one of the best things about the book! I'm hoping to study how the book was assembled sometime in the near future so I can draw my own conclusions from personal experience and research instead of just basing my beliefs on other sources!

"Living a christian life style" (as you have already proved) has little to do with Starting and maintaining a relationship with God. Just like living a Korean life style don't make you a Korean. Granted it makes you aware of the mechanics behind the culture, but even so, it doesn't change your heritage.

As I said in the beginning scripture is for all of those who seek to start, and maintain a relationship with The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Feeding a curiosity is not the purpose of scripture. God is not a god of amusements nor a god who displays signs and wonders to simply give his children a sense of His being.

God is a God of Love. If you wish to know Him then Approach Him, through the means of love He has left for us...

I have 'approached' him many times. I've desperately sought a relationship with him, I've desperately sought to experience his presence as so many of my friends and family claim to have done. I'm not hoping to see a pillar of flame come down from the heavens, as amazing as that might be - I just want to get that feeling that other Christians seem to have, that feeling where they *know* God is with them. Even when my faith was rock-solid, I never experienced this.

Do you think I was 'doing it wrong'? I'm getting that vibe, but you haven't explicitly stated this. If so, what do you think I could do differently in the future to 'do it right'?

Also know that "sticking with the church" has little to do with a true relationship with God. Just like "Sticking" with your wife after an affair doesn't mean you love Her, nor does simply being there in a marriage means your a father to your children..

To be in love with your wife your do indeed must be present in the relationship, but you must also choose to love her, and forgive her if necessary. Just like being a father is more than bragging about one's attendance in the kids lives. You must actively want to be apart of that relationship..

If you want to be in a relationship with the Lord do not go before Him looking to have Him, prove Himself to you, but Humble yourself before the Lord and allow Him to lift you up.

I'm completely aware of this. You are 'preaching to the choir', as it's said. As mentioned above, I have 'humbled myself before him' hoping to be 'lifted up', but again, I have never felt or experienced his presence. Even as a child he did not respond to me as I tried time and time again to speak with him and listen to him, though I believed in him with all my heart, mind, and soul. I have seen people break down in tears of joy after I've shared gods word with them and accept Jesus' sacrifice without hesitation, becoming fervent followers of his almost overnight, yet I cannot feel his presence, even though I can see the effect 'his words' (scripture) have on others. Baffling.

If there is ~something~ greater than the God of the Bible out there, then why hasn't it made any effort to contact or preserve any type of relationship the whole of humanity?

Maybe it has and we haven't picked up on it - plenty of people never even hear about the God of the Bible in their lifetime, which makes me wonder if the God of the Bible has made an effort to 'contact or preserve any type of relationship (with) the whole of humanity?' Sure, he 'inspired' people to write the Bible according to Christians, but it's message is never heard by much of the world today, and went unheard by countless billions in the past.

This is all random, possibly-meaningless speculation, though!

 

[ebia]

Yo. :o My name is Minority of One, and I am awesome.

Moving on, there's one thing about Christianity that's been a major stumbling block for me: the Bible. First, some fact that I don't think any of you will disagree with!

~The Bible is the one and only accepted religious text of the Christian community.

~The Bible was written over a period of several hundred (maybe thousand?) years by many different authors.

~The Bible is, according to most Christians, divinely inspired by God.

~The Bible contains no falsehoods, errors, or contradictions - again, according to the Christian community.

Right?

Okay! Now, on to my primary question:

Why should I believe that any of the words contained in the Bible, let alone *all of them* are true and/or inspired by God?

Why does one end up trusting any text? Usually its either because you already trust the author, or because you read it and find out that it helps you make sense of whatever it is the text is about.

 

[drich0150]

Do you think I was 'doing it wrong'? I'm getting that vibe, but you haven't explicitly stated this. If so, what do you think I could do differently in the future to 'do it right'?

I have 'humbled myself before him' hoping to be 'lifted up', but again, I have never felt or experienced his presence.

though I believed in him with all my heart, mind, and soul. I have seen people break down in tears of joy after I've shared gods word with them and accept Jesus' sacrifice without hesitation, becoming fervent followers of his almost overnight, yet I cannot feel his presence, even though I can see the effect 'his words' (scripture) have on others.

Humbling one's self before God is not a singular act. It is a life style. If you properly humble yourself before God you will effectively live the rest of your life a humble man. (no matter the outcome.)

You may believe that you have humbled yourself before God, but can a humble man truly expect a tit for tat relationship with God? Does a humble man have a right to expect God to reward his Humility with the same gifts as others have received? Can a Humble man dictate terms to God?

Whatever your reasoning your efforts were either found to be empty, or the reward(s) God gave you for your genuine efforts were ignored by you in lieu of something more substantial, or even more recognizable. We are told not all of us will have the same gifts.. This includes the "big' burst of emotion that you seek. Perhaps your gift may have had to do with something more in the line of service or in finances..

When one Truly humbles Himself before God He does not look to Gain, but to Give. So if you try again don't keep an account of All the Many Many Great Things You have done.. simply Live your life as a servant or slave would. Kneel before the Lord and be still and know He is God. If you can Honestly do this in your Heart, then no matter what your "gift" looks like you will be content.


I have a question, Why do you want to know God? To what end?

 

[ephraimanesti]

I've been happier since I've begun seriously questioning my faith - and I'm not the only one who thinks so. In the months immediately after I started questioning my faith in the Christian God, friends and family remarked on how 'different' and 'happy' I seemed - even some of my most fervently Christian friends believed I'd experienced a positive change before I told them that my faith was less than rock-solid! Of course, then they were a little concerned (as I expected)...

MY FRIEND,

So the question occurs to me--if you are so much "happier" now since beginning the process of dismanteling your "faith," why are you here seeking to bolster it up again? Something doesn't quite fit somewhere!

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[MinorityofOne]

Why does one end up trusting any text? Usually its either because you already trust the author, or because you read it and find out that it helps you make sense of whatever it is the text is about.

A very short answer, but a very helpful one - I hadn't really thought about it like this before. I suppose my new question becomes 'how trustworthy are the authors of the Bible', but I'm sure books have been written about that; I'll attempt to find and read one in the near future.

Humbling one's self before God is not a singular act. It is a life style. If you properly humble yourself before God you will effectively live the rest of your life a humble man. (no matter the outcome.)

You may believe that you have humbled yourself before God, but can a humble man truly expect a tit for tat relationship with God? Does a humble man have a right to expect God to reward his Humility with the same gifts as others have received? Can a Humble man dictate terms to God?

Whatever your reasoning your efforts were either found to be empty, or the reward(s) God gave you for your genuine efforts were ignored by you in lieu of something more substantial, or even more recognizable. We are told not all of us will have the same gifts.. This includes the "big' burst of emotion that you seek. Perhaps your gift may have had to do with something more in the line of service or in finances..

When one Truly humbles Himself before God He does not look to Gain, but to Give. So if you try again don't keep an account of All the Many Many Great Things You have done.. simply Live your life as a servant or slave would. Kneel before the Lord and be still and know He is God. If you can Honestly do this in your Heart, then no matter what your "gift" looks like you will be content.


I have a question, Why do you want to know God? To what end?

To quote a man I'm beginning to respect, 'living a Christian lifestyle has little to do with starting and maintaining a relationship with God'. I don't really know what you mean by a 'tit for tat' relationship - if you mean 'God, I did *this* for you, now you need to do *this* for me,' no, I don't expect that.

I don't keep an account of 'All the Many Many Great Things' I have done. I have memories, though (as most of us do), and particular experiences stick with me - like the guy breaking down in tears - but I'm neither boasting or bragging, I'm simply trying to explain where I'm coming from in life.

I'd say I've 'given' up some things in service of God - time, money, experiences (saying 'no' to things that I know are against God's word), relationships (that were unhealthy according to scripture). I fear that if I do what you say, drich - live my life as a servant/slave of God, accepting him even when I've never felt his presence - I'll simply be going through the motions, and my heart will not truly be in it.

-

You know, I just looked up 'feeling Gods presence' in google, on a whim, and a random website caught my eye. On it, the author of the site had basically repeated your points with more eloquence than either of us could muster, and... you make a lot more sense now. I shouldn't base what I do on 'feelings' - I *feel* like I need to experience God's presence to be a 'real' Christian, but perhaps that isn't the case. According to this site, great men such as John Bunyan (of Pilgrim's Progress fame) struggled with their faith immensely because they struggle to 'feel' and 'experience' God, just as I do. I should follow scripture because it lays down a moral code that I believe is 'right' and 'good', and if I 'feel' God in the future, great; if not, perhaps I'll continue to struggle as I do now... but big deal. Growth comes out of sorrow, not joy.

I mean, I can hardly trust my senses... right now, the Earth is hurtling through space at great speed, but I feel like the ground I'm standing on is perfectly still.

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
- John 14:23

Simple enough.

-

Oh, I almost forgot to answer your question. I could've sworn I mentioned it already... I believe that the philosophy Jesus lays out in the New Testament is *fantastic*, that's the reason why I want to know and follow God. Heaven, hell... these are just words to me. I can't know with any certainty what the afterlife is like, so I don't particularly care if following the Christian God leads me to heaven... or oblivion. Maybe I'm apathetic, I dunno. Sorry, I'm rambling now.

EPHRAIM, I think I answered your question in the above wall of text. I want to 'bolster it up again' because I honestly believe the philosophy presented by Jesus in the New Testament is the best lifestyle a person can live, both for their own benefit and for the benefit of others.

 

[Dragons87]

A very short answer, but a very helpful one - I hadn't really thought about it like this before. I suppose my new question becomes 'how trustworthy are the authors of the Bible', but I'm sure books have been written about that; I'll attempt to find and read one in the near future.



To quote a man I'm beginning to respect, 'living a Christian lifestyle has little to do with starting and maintaining a relationship with God'. I don't really know what you mean by a 'tit for tat' relationship - if you mean 'God, I did *this* for you, now you need to do *this* for me,' no, I don't expect that.

I don't keep an account of 'All the Many Many Great Things' I have done. I have memories, though (as most of us do), and particular experiences stick with me - like the guy breaking down in tears - but I'm neither boasting or bragging, I'm simply trying to explain where I'm coming from in life.

I'd say I've 'given' up some things in service of God - time, money, experiences (saying 'no' to things that I know are against God's word), relationships (that were unhealthy according to scripture). I fear that if I do what you say, drich - live my life as a servant/slave of God, accepting him even when I've never felt his presence - I'll simply be going through the motions, and my heart will not truly be in it.

-

You know, I just looked up 'feeling Gods presence' in google, on a whim, and a random website caught my eye. On it, the author of the site had basically repeated your points with more eloquence than either of us could muster, and... you make a lot more sense now. I shouldn't base what I do on 'feelings' - I *feel* like I need to experience God's presence to be a 'real' Christian, but perhaps that isn't the case. According to this site, great men such as John Bunyan (of Pilgrim's Progress fame) struggled with their faith immensely because they struggle to 'feel' and 'experience' God, just as I do. I should follow scripture because it lays down a moral code that I believe is 'right' and 'good', and if I 'feel' God in the future, great; if not, perhaps I'll continue to struggle as I do now... but big deal. Growth comes out of sorrow, not joy.

I mean, I can hardly trust my senses... right now, the Earth is hurtling through space at great speed, but I feel like the ground I'm standing on is perfectly still.

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
- John 14:23

Simple enough.

-

Oh, I almost forgot to answer your question. I could've sworn I mentioned it already... I believe that the philosophy Jesus lays out in the New Testament is *fantastic*, that's the reason why I want to know and follow God. Heaven, hell... these are just words to me. I can't know with any certainty what the afterlife is like, so I don't particularly care if following the Christian God leads me to heaven... or oblivion. Maybe I'm apathetic, I dunno. Sorry, I'm rambling now.

EPHRAIM, I think I answered your question in the above wall of text. I want to 'bolster it up again' because I honestly believe the philosophy presented by Jesus in the New Testament is the best lifestyle a person can live, both for their own benefit and for the benefit of others.

How encouraging!! I would like to draw things back a bit, if I may.

Our Lord Jesus, when He was on Earth, didn't say He was here to offer us a guiding philosophy in life, or make our existence on earth feel better. No, He said He was here to offer salvation (John 3:16-17).

That is the core message that I believe one has to return to before they think about going to church, before they think about serving God and others, and even before they think about building a personal relationship with Him.

First things first, if Jesus is your Saviour, you probably need to first realise why you need to be saved and whether you accept His reasons.

 

[ephraimanesti]

EPHRAIM, I think I answered your question in the above wall of text. I want to 'bolster it up again' because I honestly believe the philosophy presented by Jesus in the New Testament is the best lifestyle a person can live, both for their own benefit and for the benefit of others.

MY BROTHER,

The problem is that Jesus is not a philosopher and what He taught and demonstrated is not a "lifestyle"--"best" or otherwise.

Our Lord had one purpose and one purpose ONLY in accepting His/our Father's will regarding the details of His birth, life, death, Resurrection, and bestowal of the glorious Gift of the Holy Spirit His Body the Church--to return Abba's lost lambs to His Father's Fold. In short, He did not come to earth to teach, but to lead us--Abba's prodigal sons and daughters--Home.

Trying to turn what our Lord has said and done into a "philosphy" and "lifestyle" is a futile endeavor at best and blasphemy at worst, and even if this vain attempt could succeed--which it can't--the result would only be a weak and wavering shadow of the fullness of what Jesus our Christ has done for us.

So my question to you is: Why not embrace the totality of Jesus' glorious gift to you, with faith and gratitude, rather than be content with a few scattered crumbs falling from His Eternal Table?

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[Jesusfreak93]

I feel it is your overblown sense of self-pride which is the real problem. The Bible says all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. There's nothing good about humans, we are sinful people, and pride is a factor that seperates us from God, and because of that seperation, you can't understand what God's word is saying.

 

[MinorityofOne]

How encouraging!! I would like to draw things back a bit, if I may.

Our Lord Jesus, when He was on Earth, didn't say He was here to offer us a guiding philosophy in life, or make our existence on earth feel better. No, He said He was here to offer salvation (John 3:16-17).

That is the core message that I believe one has to return to before they think about going to church, before they think about serving God and others, and even before they think about building a personal relationship with Him.

First things first, if Jesus is your Saviour, you probably need to first realise why you need to be saved and whether you accept His reasons.

Explain to me, in your own words (or, more appropriately, God's/The Bible's words ), why I need to be saved. My understanding of the 'why' is pretty thorough, but perhaps you can expand my mind and expose me to a truth or two that I am not aware of!

MY BROTHER,

The problem is that Jesus is not a philosopher and what He taught and demonstrated is not a "lifestyle"--"best" or otherwise.

Our Lord had one purpose and one purpose ONLY in accepting His/our Father's will regarding the details of His birth, life, death, Resurrection, and bestowal of the glorious Gift of the Holy Spirit His Body the Church--to return Abba's lost lambs to His Father's Fold. In short, He did not come to earth to teach, but to lead us--Abba's prodigal sons and daughters--Home.

Trying to turn what our Lord has said and done into a "philosphy" and "lifestyle" is a futile endeavor at best and blasphemy at worst, and even if this vain attempt could succeed--which it can't--the result would only be a weak and wavering shadow of the fullness of what Jesus our Christ has done for us.

So my question to you is: Why not embrace the totality of Jesus' glorious gift to you, with faith and gratitude, rather than be content with a few scattered crumbs falling from His Eternal Table?

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

I have not rejected Jesus' salvation; no, far from it. In fact, this thread was started so that I could hear some 'proof' that the Bible is true and reliable... because if the Bible is not true and reliable, the salvation it offers isn't either! I've gotten some great answers from many of the posters, and a few not-so-helpful ones, but everyone is trying to help me out and I'm infinitely greatful for that.

Faith has always been a struggle for me, ephraim, for reasons I've listed in previous posts. Here's an example of why it's been difficult ... when a Christian around me does something I consider strange - speaking in tongues/gibberish or experiencing the gift of 'holy laughter', for example - I ask them why they did that. 'I feel the spirit' or something similar is the usual answer. I confess not understanding, and the inevitable response is 'If you had ever felt the spirit, you would understand!' Surely you can understand why this was difficult for me; if every other believer in my life can feel the presence of God, and I cannot, am I really a believer? I've followed his teaching, I've loved him with all my heart, mind, and soul, sought a relationship with him fervently, and I've experienced the good he can work through me... but I cannot feel his presence. Ever.

I feel it is your overblown sense of self-pride which is the real problem. The Bible says all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. There's nothing good about humans, we are sinful people, and pride is a factor that seperates us from God, and because of that seperation, you can't understand what God's word is saying.

What makes you think that I have an overblown sense of self-pride? Because I asked for some evidence that the Bible is a reliable source outside of 'The Bible says that the Bible is true, therefore the Bible is true?'

What would I need to do to 'understand what God's word is saying'? What more could I do to close the gap between myself and God?