The Omniscience of God
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What verse in the Scriptures do you point toward as denying that God is fully aware of what happens in His Universe?
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Goinheix
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That is fate. In many literature (and movies) fictions it have been discused the condition of fate. Edipo was told that he will kill his own father and maried his own mother. Whatever was donew to avoid that fate, actually was leading into the fate. Thingd goes in a way that all started hapening because the prediction itself. In modern literatre we have may examples where the past cant be changed.
Fate is in that direction; predestination isnt. Fate is like we are actors in a plot that was writen by God and we can not avoid happening. That is not hte biblical conception.
I believe that the people of ninive did change theyr "fate". If not, all the book of Jona is a joke.
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98cwitr
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Goinheix
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1 Until few day ago I was convinced that God is omnicient. It is because of this thread that I figured out that I dont know any verse saying that.
2 I still believe that God is omnicient, but now I like to have a verse to support my believe.
3 prophecies are not predictions of the future. ancient civilization and even the modern civilization seak for knowing the fture...fortune tellers. That is not the function of the prophecy and the prophets. A prophet is somebody being the anouncer of God words and revelations. A prophet is recogniced by knowing what only God knows; it can be of the present, past or future. The most of the predictions are like "dont you eat that becase you will fell sick" A prophesy sis like "if you dont study you will fail the test" The future prediction has the object of correcting the present. If the present is corrected, then the prediction dont hapens.
Some others prophesies are anouncing the future itself. Those prophesies were sent mainly to the people of Israel in captivity for giving them confort.
We as christians have to make a effort to diference the profecies from the past fortune tellers.
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I don't think there's a problem with man having free will (I believe in limited free will, man can choose to eat a sandwich at lunch but can't choose to make pain go away on it's own or choose God through his own)
I always found this interesting...
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Man did what he wanted, God did what he wanted.
Or this one...
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
In other words, I will use Assyria to punish Israel then punish Assyria for punishing Israel even though they thought all they were doing is what they wanted to do in the first place.
I dunno, just stuff to think about.
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Goinheix
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Very good link. But
Jesus didnt know who was the person who touched him. He knew that power was taken from him (mark 5:30) but not who was the person. that is also clear in 3:32. In the Gospels it is clear that Jesus didnt know many things. And that is a matter for other threads about the divine atributed that Jesus had.
If we erase that mentioning of Jesus that the author do, everything else is very good. But
In the Bible we have many text saying of God having a knowledge superior to any man. It is clear that the knowledge of God is very wide, long and deep; but actually it seem not to be any text saying of the complete omnicience of God. Even I John is refering (Know everything) to the heart, not to literally everything.
We are having a progres and geting closer. I keep expecting for more clues.
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Goinheix
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My nice just came from Boca Raton Fl. She brought some toys for my daughter cat. She (my nice) have a cat and her cat enjoy a lot those same toys. She knew that my cat will like it, and how he will play. One of the toys is a ball with light, and she told us "he will like the ball more by night hours". She knew all that. We also knew it aswell. But all of us, including her, did wait for the cat reaction. Now I tel you that my doughter cat did love those toys.
We have to ponder if God knowledge is not similar. God knows our words before we speak, and knew what Abraham was about to do with Isaac. But yet, God had to wait for Abrahm to take the knife to kill Isaac. The, He really knew for sure. We have to ponder thouse thots.
We have to ponder if God knowledge is not similar. God knows our words before we speak, and knew what Abraham was about to do with Isaac. But yet, God had to wait for Abrahm to take the knife to kill Isaac. The, He really knew for sure. We have to ponder thouse thots.
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98cwitr
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The Acts 4 verses are great examples that free will is only a perception and that predestination applies to both the elect and nonelect. It says that God determined their gathering together beforehand.
As far as Assyria is concerned, it reminds me of the description of Pharaoh's purpose in Romans 9, you should check it out.
@Goinheix, did you read the verses in the link? Please read this too:
http://godknowsthefuture.info/
http://www.allaboutgod.com/open-theism.htm
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98cwitr
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Comfort? As in: "it's going to be okay" kind of thing, even though it might not actually turn out okay? And if it didn't actually turn out that way that would make God a liar.
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Goinheix
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Comfort? As in: "it's going to be okay" kind of thing, even though it might not actually turn out okay? And if it didn't actually turn out that way that would make God a liar.
When somebody in hurt to dead, the next guy tell him to relax because he will be OK. That is not the confort God is giving. Hes confort is: every will be OK because I am God and will make it happens. believeme that I have both the willing and the power. It not necesarely means that he saw the end of the movie, but he has the capability to take his promess to the end.
tomorro i will read all you are posting and linking. tonight - a minute ago - i was checking Open Theism in wikipedia and it seems interesting.
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Sorry for the delay my friend, I have been quite busy.
God's knowledge is infinite, but there is no verse in the Bible that tells us that God knows everything. At the same time, there are many Bible passages which indicate that He does not know some things.
Consider the promise of God to forget the sins He has forgive. In several verses God says, "I will remember their sins no more"(e.g., Heb. 8:12). Of course, this can be considered a figure of speech, but it is also possible that God can sovereignty decide to remove from His own consciousness the sins He has forgive. In other words, it is possible that a perfect God can perfectly forget. Maybe we should take His words literally.
The Bible also tells us that God searches the hearts of people, which implies that God is seeking to discover things that He does not know. Further, God tests people to see what is in their hearts. Concerning Hezekiah we are told:
....God left him alone only to test him, That He might know all that was in his heart. (II Chron. 32:31)
Deuteronomy, chapter 8, tells us about God allowing the Hebrew people to wander in the wilderness for 40 years:
"...that He might humble you, testing you to know what was in your heart, whether you, would keep His commandments or not." (Deut. 8:2)
For another example of this testing to know, consider God's work in the life of Abraham. God told Abraham to kill his own son and offer him as a sacrifice (Gen. 22). In obedience, Abraham took his son up to the moutain and prepared him for the sacrifice, but God stopped Abraham right before he killed Isaac. God spokle through an angel: He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me." (Gen. 22:12)
God said, "...now I know...." Didn't God know before this? If we believe God's words literally, then we have to answer, "No."
Other Bible verses (e.g., 1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9; 1 John 3:20) tell us that God can see and know everything in the heart of a person, but how does this fit with the idea that God tests people to see what is in their heart? This is understandable if we consider the possibility that the human heart is able to initiate thoughts and desires. God can see into the heart of every person, but ideas that are not in the heart of a person today may arise tomorrow. Since God is moving through time with us, He continues watching, searching and testing.
No one knows for certain how the dynamics of God's awareness work, but let me propose a possibility. Perhaps God already knows if you are going to get in a car wreck tomorrow. He knows the exact time, location, and every minute detail of the even.t However, it may be that God will still be watching to see what is going to come out of your mouth the instant of the crash. Maybe He has created humanity with a free will and the ability to bring things forth from our own hearts without His predetermination of preknowledge. I am not saying this is true, but it is certainly a possibility because it fits with how we see God dealing with others in Scripture.
We must keep in mind that God is sovereign (He can do whatever He wants to do), and therefore, He can decide to not know certain things. On the other hand, if we say that God is omniscient, we maybe be denying his Sovereignty- we are saying that God has to know everything and He has no freedom to decide to not know all things.
If God already knew what every person was going to do, say, or pray, then He never would have the opportunity to respond and change His mind. Since the Bible tells us that God changes His mind, and nowhere does it tell us that He knows everything, we must question the traditionally accepted idea of omniscience.
Some of you might say that the examples I have given of God not knowing certain things are insignificant compared with the vast knowledge which God does have. Hence, they would be comfortable ignoring these minor "unknowns" and continue to describe God as omniscient.
I agree that God's knowledge is so vast that it is beyond our comprehension. He knows every blade of grass on the earth and every molecule on Jupiter. However, to have a biblical accurate understanding of God's nature, we must be careful to use biblical terms. God's knowledge is infinite. That is what the Bible teaches- no less, no more. Yet it is alarming to learn how many Christians will fight for a doctrine which is not in the Bible. They will fight as if God needs someone to defend Him. They will fight for something which- whether it is true or not- God chose not to reveal about Himself.
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Goinheix
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Nice work, and worth pondering. At the same time I can predict that amny brothers will feel ofended and call you an heretic. Following you I think (IMO) that nothing is beyond the capacity of God to know; nothing can be hide from Him...but there is things that He dont know because He is not interested in. Probably there is thing God will know at soon He decides to know it. That is IMO and I am ready to change my position on that.
Check the phisics. Some scientis believe that only exist the present; the very instant of the present. They understand that what did hapens, despite of having consecuences in our present, and being in our memory; are gone for good. They claim that if time travel were posible, it will be nowhere to go, since past and future dont exist. Future dont exist as well the past. Even the near future is determine by our present; future do not exist. In that theory, it is not possible to know or predict the future with 100% accuracy. In that case, God do not know of sokmething that dont exist. In the same manner God dont know about the planet orbiting between Earth and Venus (because it doesnt exist); God dont know the future. At the most, God can predict our future out of our present nature and condition; and can do it by knowing His own intends and plans.
All the above is not something I will defend as somebody tell the oposite.
Check the phisics. Some scientis believe that only exist the present; the very instant of the present. They understand that what did hapens, despite of having consecuences in our present, and being in our memory; are gone for good. They claim that if time travel were posible, it will be nowhere to go, since past and future dont exist. Future dont exist as well the past. Even the near future is determine by our present; future do not exist. In that theory, it is not possible to know or predict the future with 100% accuracy. In that case, God do not know of sokmething that dont exist. In the same manner God dont know about the planet orbiting between Earth and Venus (because it doesnt exist); God dont know the future. At the most, God can predict our future out of our present nature and condition; and can do it by knowing His own intends and plans.
All the above is not something I will defend as somebody tell the oposite.
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