Tellyontellyon

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It's omniscience something that is essential to God's nature.. or is it specific to God the Father?

Matthew 24:36 KJVBut of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Can God the Son not be omniscient? Or, can he choose to not be omniscient? Was he pretending?
Can God, whichever person of God, choose to not be omniscient?

When God gives man free-will, he is in a sense withholding his control over what happens to allow humans to have some measure of control...
Could he also withhold his omniscience at that point too?

Can God allow himself be surprised or disappointed...? That would imply that he didn't know what would happen, and therefore had withdrawn his omniscience as well as his control (power) in order to allow man to have some control over his destiny/salvation?
 

trophy33

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It's omniscience something that is essential to God's nature.. or is it specific to God the Father?
God's nature.

Matthew 24:36 KJVBut of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Can God the Son not be omniscient? Or, can he choose to not be omniscient? Was he pretending?
When Jesus was born as a human, He was limited by the human body, namely the limited capacity of the human brain. After His resurrection, the limitation went away.

Can God, whichever person of God, choose to not be omniscient?
No.

When God gives man free-will...
He does not.

Can God allow himself be surprised or disappointed...?
No.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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It's omniscience something that is essential to God's nature.. or is it specific to God the Father?

Matthew 24:36 KJVBut of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Can God the Son not be omniscient? Or, can he choose to not be omniscient? Was he pretending?
Can God, whichever person of God, choose to not be omniscient?

When God gives man free-will, he is in a sense withholding his control over what happens to allow humans to have some measure of control...
Could he also withhold his omniscience at that point too?

Can God allow himself be surprised or disappointed...? That would imply that he didn't know what would happen, and therefore had withdrawn his omniscience as well as his control (power) in order to allow man to have some control over his destiny/salvation?
The very definition of " omniscience" , one with unlimited knowledge, tells us that God has a Divine nature. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three are all in One. This is the Trinity. Though Jesus Christ of Nazareth retained foreknowledge while on earth He also claimed to have restrained knowledge subject to His Father's will. It remains a mystery why only the Father knows the "day and hour" perhaps in the flesh Jesus Christ of Nazareth was limited.

Blessings
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's omniscience something that is essential to God's nature.. or is it specific to God the Father?

Matthew 24:36 KJVBut of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Can God the Son not be omniscient? Or, can he choose to not be omniscient? Was he pretending?
Can God, whichever person of God, choose to not be omniscient?

When God gives man free-will, he is in a sense withholding his control over what happens to allow humans to have some measure of control...
Could he also withhold his omniscience at that point too?

Can God allow himself be surprised or disappointed...? That would imply that he didn't know what would happen, and therefore had withdrawn his omniscience as well as his control (power) in order to allow man to have some control over his destiny/salvation?
The attribute we call The Simplicity of God describes all his attributes to be at once present and each inclusive of all the other attributes. None are of his essence. They all ARE Him.

In other words, the attributes are OUR way of looking at him, since we must compartmentalize to try to grasp the whole understanding. He is not well-described by our minds and words. One way to look at it is shown in a little saying that goes something like: "He is not good because it is good to be so, but good is what it is, because God is good". God does not exist by the principle of existence, but existence is what it is because God exists.

All fact depends on God for it to be, and not the other way around. "Essential to his nature" doesn't really begin to describe any of his attributes. I mention that because the human mind wants to produce something it can comprehend to describe what it is at any time considering, but when it is considering God it really cannot do so. The fact God became man is bad enough to grasp, but that he would put aside his power as God, to live by the power of his Father is incomprehensible to us. But that is what he did.

As God, the choice was made before the foundation of the world. As man he did not have omniscience. Free will, of the sort you are trying to describe, where God must put aside some of his omniscience, is a logical self-contradiction. Simple cause-and-effect demands that all that has happened did so as a result of what came before it. And God is First Cause, or he is not God. And God is [at least] omniscient or he is not God.

As you consider this, it should be noted that Scripture speaks of this concerning Christ (Philippians 2:6-8), but not concerning the Father nor the Spirit of God, nor even God himself (the whole trinity) as such. He did not cloak his omniscience nor hide anything from himself, but simply lived as a normal, limited, human —normal, that is, but for his virgin birth.
 
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BobRyan

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It's omniscience something that is essential to God's nature.. or is it specific to God the Father?

Matthew 24:36 KJVBut of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
you would think it is intrinsic in the nature of God. But Christ showed in a number of places where He refused to use his own power to solve something and refused to use His own God ability in other areas as well. More than that - God can not die. Christ had to allow Himself to die on the cross - at least the human nature of Christ.
Can God the Son not be omniscient? Or, can he choose to not be omniscient?
To say that He cannot choose something -- for example - cannot choose to refrain from using His God ability if that is required is to limit what He "can" do.


Can God allow himself be surprised or disappointed...? That would imply that he didn't know what would happen
In Gen 6 He makes that very case - saying he repented for having made mankind - but was he really kept from knowing something or is it conveying LESS truth about God to portray Him as saying "sure you failed! of course you failed! I always knew you would fail", OR does His true anguish of spirit over the fall of mankind get more accurately stated in the words He uses in Gen 6.
 
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Peacemaker1

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The very definition of " omniscience" , one with unlimited knowledge, tells us that God has a Divine nature. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three are all in One. This is the Trinity. Though Jesus Christ of Nazareth retained foreknowledge while on earth He also claimed to have restrained knowledge subject to His Father's will. It remains a mystery why only the Father knows the "day and hour" perhaps in the flesh Jesus Christ of Nazareth was limited.

Blessings
Not much of a mystery when the hour is told exactly when..



Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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so, who is going to be ready, when the thread shows already no understanding of what knowing the day and hour means ?
We can go back to one of Christ's parables, the "Ten Virgins".
The take away...be prepared when the day and hour comes. Blessings.
 
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Peacemaker1

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We can go back to one of Christ's parables, the "Ten Virgins".
The take away...be prepared when the day and hour comes. Blessings.
why don't all go back with me, and see that the take from the parable in Matthew chapter 25, is the very same as the take for Matthew 25, that the Son of man comes at an hour when we are not aware of.

See again how that is EXACTLY, the summing up by Jesus Himself, that we do not know the day nor the hour when the Son comes. ( but the Son knows)




Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Matthew 2512 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.



Now everybody, look at the five unwise.

Ephesians exhorts us to awake as we are sleeping, to arise form the dead and Christ shall give us light. ( Christ knows the day, as He is the day who gives us light.)

We are exhorted to walk carefully, not as fools, but as wise.

We are to look at this time, where the days and the teachers ( forums) are evil.

We are to not be unwise ( as Jesus taught) but we are to understand what the will of the Lord is, which is to not be drunk with the drunken. ( instead to be filled with the Spirit.)



Matthew 2512 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;




Now I hear the wise asking, how are we filled with the Spirit, how do we not be drunk with the drunken ?


Jesus gives two parables, answering, how at this time when the days are evil, ( many false prophets deceiving many.) we are to pray always, so we do not faint. ( lose faith, not be ready for when Christ comes, at the hour we think not))

Jesus shows the doubt that He will find any of faith when He comes.

Three chapters later in Luke, we are exhorted again by Christ to take heed to ourselves, as our hearts will be overcome by drunkenness, and cares of this life, so that the day of Christ comes on us unawares.

This day is told how it comes, as a snare it comes on ALL THEM WHO DWELL ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH.

We are therefore exhorted by Christ to pray always, to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that have come to pass, so we may stand before the Son of man.



Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;


Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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so, who is going to be ready, when the thread shows already no understanding of what knowing the day and hour means ?
You are missing the point. My question is about the Nature of God and the Trinity. Also, whether God is willing and able to restrict his capabilities... and whether or not that is necessary? The question is all there in the OP.
But you have decided to focus on a different question... one that I didn't ask. Perhaps English isn't your first language, or perhaps it's the kind of brain you have... but you picked up on a device I used to illustrate the question rather than the question itself... Then again maybe it's not to do with your understanding of how language is used, or a diverse brain... perhaps you misunderstand how the 'Exploring Christianity' section of this forum works... Or perhaps you just like to show us your knowledge of scripture... Or perhaps you simply feel that quoting scripture is what is really needed in any circumstance, even if it is not relevant to the question.
In any case, would you mind awfully if we focus on the question that I asked, rather than the one that you would like to answer.
Again.. the question is about the nature of God's abilities in the context of the Trinity. Read the OP again and maybe have a crack at it.
P.S. if you have issues with how other people are responding, perhaps p.m. them directly rather than introducing a secondary debate on the thread.
For your information, the 'Exploring Christianity' threads are not debate threads (the O.P. may ask clarifying questions). Please don't debate on these threads, it is off topic.
Cheers.
 
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Peacemaker1

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now, here is the way to Christianity, it is to believe in speaking less, and hearing more, that is how to be ready by the way.


also, to be ready is to be doers, not talkers only, as we only deceive our own selves and are not ready at all.

read more for how to do, and speak less for how you do not do, read HERE...



James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
 
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Divide

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It's omniscience something that is essential to God's nature.. or is it specific to God the Father?

Matthew 24:36 KJVBut of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Can God the Son not be omniscient? Or, can he choose to not be omniscient? Was he pretending?
Can God, whichever person of God, choose to not be omniscient?

When God gives man free-will, he is in a sense withholding his control over what happens to allow humans to have some measure of control...
Could he also withhold his omniscience at that point too?

Can God allow himself be surprised or disappointed...? That would imply that he didn't know what would happen, and therefore had withdrawn his omniscience as well as his control (power) in order to allow man to have some control over his destiny/salvation?

There's only one decent answer to this that I can see. How can Jesus be omniscient and not know when the rapture will be?

Simple. It is up to the Father and the Father hasn't made up His mind yet exactly when. The Father is keeping His options open and leaving the actual time up in the air for now until He decides, the time is right, Go!

When the Father decides it is time, He will tell Jesus and then Jesus will know but He doesn't know now when it will be because the Father has not decided yet.

So Jesus is omniscient and yet does not know when it will be.
 
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Peacemaker1

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sorry the time is told, here it is. ( only brutish people dont know or believe when the end is)


Psalm 92:5 O Lord, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.
6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
8 But thou, Lord, art most high for evermore.


Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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now, here is the way to Christianity, it is to believe in speaking less, and hearing more, that is how to be ready by the way.


also, to be ready is to be doers, not talkers only, as we only deceive our own selves and are not ready at all.

read more for how to do, and speak less for how you do not do, read HERE...



James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
I wish you would speak less and hear more
 
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Tellyontellyon

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There's only one decent answer to this that I can see. How can Jesus be omniscient and not know when the rapture will be?

Simple. It is up to the Father and the Father hasn't made up His mind yet exactly when. The Father is keeping His options open and leaving the actual time up in the air for now until He decides, the time is right, Go!

When the Father decides it is time, He will tell Jesus and then Jesus will know but He doesn't know now when it will be because the Father has not decided yet.

So Jesus is omniscient and yet does not know when it will be.

There's only one decent answer to this that I can see. How can Jesus be omniscient and not know when the rapture will be?

Simple. It is up to the Father and the Father hasn't made up His mind yet exactly when. The Father is keeping His options open and leaving the actual time up in the air for now until He decides, the time is right, Go!

When the Father decides it is time, He will tell Jesus and then Jesus will know but He doesn't know now when it will be because the Father has not decided yet.

So Jesus is omniscient and yet does not know when it will be.
Ah, you tried! Thank you.
That's an interesting take on things.. the different persons of God having different roles... God the Father, in this instance, decides when the 'rapture' is.
 
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Peacemaker1

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nah, the end is told twofold, it is awares to those of the light, unawares to those of darkness.

Jesus, then Paul, then Peter all give this same testimony, that the day comes as a thief, to all who should miss it, but of course Christ knows the day which is Christ.



Luke 21:34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

1 Thessalonians 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.





1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:10
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Philippians 2:16
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:




now we know well it is the day of Christ, of course Christ shows in HIs time and appearing He is the King of kings, the ONLY RULER, but now yet..




1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
 
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Tellyontellyon

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nah, the end is told twofold, it is awares to those of the light, unawares to those of darkness.

Jesus, then Paul, then Peter all give this same testimony, that the day comes as a thief, to all who should miss it, but of course Christ knows the day which is Christ.



Luke 21:34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

1 Thessalonians 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.





1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:10
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Philippians 2:16
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:




now we know well it is the day of Christ, of course Christ shows in HIs time and appearing He is the King of kings, the ONLY RULER, but now yet..




1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
So at the time that Jesus said that only the Father knows... Jesus was in darkness?
 
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