The Olivet Discourse Cannot Be Divided!

[Straightshot]

"It would be my hope that anyone reading these posts compare what I say to the sources or scripture provided and judge the truth for themselves."


You can squawk until the cows come home BAB, but the fact is that the Irvingites and their false prophetess did not present a two stage second coming, but the same post-tribulation thinking that you yourself promote

There is simply no way that anyone would or could construct a two stage coming from the exegetical doctrine of the Irvingites

What anyone reading your post can see is that you are fabricating a story and using it to promote your post-tribulation rant .... with the hoax of the MacDonald/Darby story created by David McPherson and the like

Refusing to admit the error of your way just goes further to destroy your entire bluster on this forum

You have the right to teach your false dogma, but you should give some thought to what you are doing .... this kind of behavior has a question of your credibility now, and could have a more serious impact upon your ultimate fate

 

[BABerean2]

There is simply no way that anyone would or could construct a two stage coming from the exegetical doctrine of the Irvingites

Really...

The following excerpt is from pages 3-5 of the article in the link at the bottom and is based on the historical written record found in "The Morning Watch", which was the periodical of the Irvingites and also contains the testimony of those who were present at the time.


"The Morning Watch – September 1830

The official quarterly publication of the Irvingite charismatics was called, "The Morning

Watch." It had exclusively promoted a posttribulation second coming through mid-


1830. But, the September 1830 issue featured part two of an article by someone named,

“Fidus,” promoting the theory that the seven letters in Revelation describe seven

consecutive “Church Ages.” In this article, Fidus articulated the new idea of a partial

pretribulation rapture. He saw the Philedelphian (Spirit filled) church being raptured

prior to the tribulation, and the Laodicean church representing the rest of Christianity.

(See Appendix D for the full text of this article). The Morning Watch was quickly


becoming the vehicle for providing a biblical basis for Margaret MacDonald’s

pretribulation rapture of “Spirit filled” Christians.

4

The Morning Watch – June, 1831

In the June 1831 issue of The Morning Watch, Edward Irving made his


pretribulationism crystal clear. His biblical support for the elite “Spirit-filled” believers

being raptured before the tribulation was the catching up of the “man-child” in

Revelation 12. Irving argued that the body of Christ has been "united to Him by

regeneration of the Holy Ghost, 'born of God, sons of God,' (Rev. ii. 27; xii. 5). And therefore we

with him are called Christ (1 Cor. xii. 12)." Irving went on to say that, "with this key [that


Spirit filled Christians are also “Christ,” and that the catching up of the “man child”

refers to the rapture of Spirit-filled believers] the Old Testament prophecies which speak of


Christ must be interpreted, ... and especially those prophecies which speak of the pregnant

woman: to all which an explicet key is given to us in the xiith chapter of Revelation; where,

though the child is spoken of as one (ver. 5), it is also described as many (ver. 11), who


overcame the acuser; and when that number is accomplished, there are still a remnant of her seed,

whom the dragon doth persecute and seek to destroy (ver. 17). This two-fold company – the


one gathered before, and the other after the travailing woman is cast out into the


wilderness, ... – do together constitute the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, which

cometh down from heaven." (pp. 301-302).

The Morning Watch – December, 1832

An anonymous writer in the December 1832 (p. 249) issue of The Morning Watch likely


referred to Margaret MacDonald's letters (and probably her friend Mary Campbell &

Emily Cardale of London) with the following words; "The Spirit of God has caused several


young women, in different parts of Great Britain, to condense into a few broken sentences more

and deeper theology than ever Vaughan, Chalmers, or Irving uttered in their longest sermons;

and therefore more than all the rest of the Evangelical pulpits ever put forth in the whole course

of their existence."

Robert Baxter (1833)

British Lawyer, Robert Baxter, was an early member of the Irvingite charismatics. Baxter


had previously been a posttribulationist, but eventually adopted the pretribulation


rapture views of Irving. He, along with several other “prophets” of the Catholic

Apostolic Church, gave many prophecies, all of which failed. He later became

disillusioned with the whole movement, and abandoned Irvingism (and

pretribulationism). Upon his departure, he wrote an expose of Irvingism, called

Narrative of Facts, Characterizing the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr. Irving's

Congregation (1833), including Irving's early pretribulation teachings. "An opinion had


been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the second coming of Christ, and


before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the


Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus


saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and Lot was saved from

5

Sodom." Baxter wrote that the coming of the Lord was the main topic of the prophetic


utterances in Irving's congregation. Looking back, he thought they had all been

deceived by lying spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. (See Appendix E).

Robert Norton (1861)

Robert Norton was the author of "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic

Apostolic Church" (1861). Norton took a favorable view of the Irvingite movement,

writing in the preface that his book was offered "as proofs or illustrations of its heavenly

origin and character." (See Appendix F). Norton named Margaret MacDonald as the first


to proclaim the “new doctrine” of a pretribulation rapture, which was picked up by


Edward Irving.

Samuel P. Tregelles (1855/1864)

Samuel P. Tregelles was the most eminent Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 19th


century, with first hand knowledge of the Irvingites. In an 1855 article in The Christian

Annotator, Tregelles wrote that the true Christian hope is the final “advent” and "not

some secret advent, or secret rapture to the Lord, as Judaizers supposed might be the case...".2 (A


later Plymouth Brethren writer, William Kelly, also identified the Irvingites as the

“Judaizers”3). Nine years later, Tregelles published "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming,"

in which he wrote: “But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward


(about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness: … I am not aware that there was any


definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until


this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there


received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or

not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern


phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which


falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s

incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.”4 The last

statement, “not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation … without taint of sin,”

referred to the Irvingite cult’s heretical view of the person of Christ, and to the Apostle

John’s test that any spirit not acknowledging the true doctrine of the incarnation was of

“the spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:1-3)."


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

 

[Straightshot]

Face the truth BAB ..... you have snookered yourself

Your sources are spurious, and your multi doctrine of many colors [preterism/amil/post-tribulation thinking] is false

.... and the Lord's discourse projecting the future still pending is not divided

 

[Douggg]

But wait... didn't some of the folks to whom our Lord was speaking, and whose questions He was asking, really see Jerusalem "compassed about by armies"? Didn't some of them live to see the Temple desecrated and destroyed, and not one stone left standing on another?

Sure, but those things were not in Luke 17 which the opening post referred to, in an attempt to tie it to verses in Matthew 24 as already happened.

In Luke 17, the pharisees asked the question, not the disciples. When Jesus expanded his explanation to the events concerning his return, repeated in Matthew 24, he said to the the disciples, who were also present:

"Luke17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it."

ye shall not see it. That means those things in the verses presented in the opening post did not happen in 70 AD.

They did not see the abomination of desolation, and everything thereafter in Matthew 24.

 

[dysert]

(Blind post)

Jesus was asked two questions, so he answered two questions. One answer relates to AD70, and the other answer relates to a time yet future. If anyone is interested, I have written a paper which looks at the Olivet Discourse. You can read it at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxAJG5BgcLftb2lBRXhzU2tDLTA/view?usp=sharing

 

[Straightshot]

My comment


Understand this .... Israel has been attacked by gentile nations many times in the past and has been surrounded by hostile armies .... even today

The Lord's discourse is about a future surrounding that is coming and all of the other events that He speaks of will all take place "together" at the same time [Luke 21:22; 21:24; 21:25-28;21:31-36]

There are related events described which have never taken place on the earth which must be morphed by the preterist in order to make the projections fit 70 AD .... and this they do

The Lord did not come back in 70 AD .... only an idiot, or a deceiver could make the claim

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[BABerean2]

(Blind post)

Jesus was asked two questions, so he answered two questions. One answer relates to AD70, and the other answer relates to a time yet future. If anyone is interested, I have written a paper which looks at the Olivet Discourse. You can read it at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxAJG5BgcLftb2lBRXhzU2tDLTA/view?usp=sharing

Mr. Dysert,

I went to the link and printed out a copy of your paper.
It was very well done and I agree with your basic premise of the 2 questions and 2 answers.

The following is a worksheet I did for a small group Bible study that uses the same idea, but has some differences in the interpretation.

....................................................................................
Matthew Chapter 24:

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.



2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
(Simon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis.
This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….



Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.


However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, andwhich was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka. He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

John 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.



Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.


We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessedarethe barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?

_________________________________________________________

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summerisnigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,evenat the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth noman,no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noewere,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Twowomen shall begrinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Based on the language and the context in verses 24:38-39, what happens to those taken in verses 24:40-41?

This passage should be compared to the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13. Who are taken and who are left?


__________________________________________________________

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for, in His answer to the first question? _____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________



Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for in His answer to the second question? ____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

 

[dysert]

Mr. Dysert,

I went to the link and printed out a copy of your paper.
It was very well done and I agree with your basic premise of the 2 questions and 2 answers.

The following is a worksheet I did for a small group Bible study that uses the same idea, but has some differences in the interpretation.

....................................................................................
Matthew Chapter 24:

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.



2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
(Simon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis.
This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….



Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.


However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, andwhich was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka. He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

John 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.



Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.


We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessedarethe barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?

_________________________________________________________

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summerisnigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,evenat the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth noman,no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noewere,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Twowomen shall begrinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Based on the language and the context in verses 24:38-39, what happens to those taken in verses 24:40-41?

This passage should be compared to the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13. Who are taken and who are left?


__________________________________________________________

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for, in His answer to the first question? _____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________



Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for in His answer to the second question? ____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

Very nice. I bet your worksheet makes for an interesting Bible study.

 

[BABerean2]

Very nice. I bet your worksheet makes for an interesting Bible study.

You or anyone else is welcome to copy and use it, or any part of it, as you see fit.
.

 

[Winken]

The vote is in~~!!!

After careful consideration of the slugfest, the committee has come to the conclusion that on a scale from zero to 100,

1. ... both sides can't be right; 100
2. ... one side is wrong, the other right; 100
3. ... neither is right; 100
4. ... neither is wrong; 100

It's a draw!!!

 

[Dave Watchman]

The Olivet Discourse Cannot Be Divided!

I like the title of your post because I agree with it. The Olivet Discourse Cannot Be Divided! It is a true apocalyptic prophecy taking up two chapters in the book of Matthew. Starting at verse 7 Jesus runs through a fast pace synopsis that describes the specifications leading up to our appointed time of the end. It spans about 1,105 years that begin in 1914 and run through to about 3019 (est.) and the end of the 1000 years of Revelation 20. It's like a miniature version of the book of Revelation.

A poster raised a question at worthy this weekend, I already know what the answer is but see what you guys think.

Is Jesus talking about TWO future comings in the Olivet Discourse?

Matt.24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt.25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
​

Are these describing two different comings, one after the tribulation and the other after the 1000 years of Rev. 20.

The first resurrection in Matt. 24 is for the elect only, Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power.

The second visitation in Matt. 25 has Jesus on His Throne and is complete with the goats.

And I saw the dead, great and small,
standing before the throne.
Ba Ba Bad to the Bone.

 

[Winken]

(Blind post)

Jesus was asked two questions, so he answered two questions. One answer relates to AD70, and the other answer relates to a time yet future. If anyone is interested, I have written a paper which looks at the Olivet Discourse. You can read it at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxAJG5BgcLftb2lBRXhzU2tDLTA/view?usp=sharing

Superb paper! I printed it out, grabbed my highlighter, read it twice. My only real objection is to the use of the word "Palestine."

Thanks so much for the link!

 

[Jipsah]

The Lord did not come back in 70 AD .

That may be the first thing I've seen you post that was true.

 

[dysert]

Superb paper! I printed it out, grabbed my highlighter, read it twice. My only real objection is to the use of the word "Palestine."

Thanks so much for the link!

Thank you. What should I have used instead of "Palestine"?

 

[Douggg]

Mr. Dysert,

I went to the link and printed out a copy of your paper.
It was very well done and I agree with your basic premise of the 2 questions and 2 answers.

The following is a worksheet I did for a small group Bible study that uses the same idea, but has some differences in the interpretation.

....................................................................................
Matthew Chapter 24:

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.



2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
(Simon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis.
This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.


This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….



Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.


However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, andwhich was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka. He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

John 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.



Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.


We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessedarethe barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?

_________________________________________________________

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summerisnigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,evenat the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth noman,no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noewere,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Twowomen shall begrinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Based on the language and the context in verses 24:38-39, what happens to those taken in verses 24:40-41?

This passage should be compared to the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13. Who are taken and who are left?


__________________________________________________________

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for, in His answer to the first question? _____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________



Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for in His answer to the second question? ____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

Bab2, you left out....


"Luke17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it."

All you got to do is go to read the verses that follow. Did not happen in 70 AD. Preterist view destroyed with one verse.

 

[precepts]

The Olivet discourse cannot be future because the city and temple were destroyed in 70ad. Christianity's stumbling block is not interpreting scripture correctly.

The prophecy is a parable, and God speaks in parables. The prophecy is as much a parable as the "Watch" parables. You could say the "Watch" parables are the continuation of the Olivet discourse prophecy:

Luk 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
Luk 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
Luk 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
Luk 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

No how do you suppose these verses fit into the Olivet discourse?

Christianity's stumbling block and the key to understanding the Olivet discourse is understanding how "those standing there" or "that generation" not "passing away," or not "tasting death" until they see the Son of Man returning on a cloud, etc, is interpreted. God is not a man that he should lie, so how could "that generation" not "taste death" until all those things were fulfilled? Rev 20.

Rev 20 is the only place since the dawn of creation that "death" is introduced to the world; mortal death is sleep. So, the true interpretation is that the prophecy is a parable, fulfilled in Rev 20's "Great White Throne" judgement.

The 2nd key to understanding why the prophecy isn't divided is believing exactly what the text says. And the text specifically states the "tribulation" was in those days:

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Concrete proof the tribulation began right after the temple and city destruction. And though I know there are some who will deny this fact, please note it can never be denied in a court of law.

The "Blueprint" for understanding the prophecy continues:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

So far we have 3 events: the temple and the city destruction; the tribulation after the temple and city's destruction; and now the sun and moon darkening, etc. This truly didn't happening in 70ad since the tribulation, though shortened, lasted past 70ad, but how do we interpret what the text specifically states was to happen? The answer is rightly interpreting Dan 7:11 and Rev 19:20. If we rightly interpret Dan 7:11 to be Rev 19:20 and Dan 7:9-10 to be Rev 4:1-2, we will rightly see Christ kingdom began during the reign of the scriptural 11th Roman emperor Nerva, Dan 7's fourth beast's 11th horn, the False Prophet, the 2nd beast in Revelation. We would rightly see that his two yrs reign was the shortening of the "tribulation," and that that part of the prophecy is also a prophecy that's fulfilled spiritually in the heavens (like the "that generation" parable), the proof Christ did inherit/possess the kingdom during the reign of these Roman kings, as prophesied in Dan 7:7-28 and in Revelation's account of the two beasts.

Once again, these are facts that can be denied by some, but not debunked by any; hence upheld in a court of law.

So, here endeth the lesson. Tomorrow will we do a review of what we've learned today.

Class is dismissed!

 

[Straightshot]

"The Olivet discourse cannot be future because the city and temple were destroyed in 70ad. Christianity's stumbling block is not interpreting scripture correctly. The prophecy is a parable"


I think you are the one who owns the block

 

[precepts]

Whether I own the block or not, you're still stumbling on it. So, try addressing the post and not the poster. Your tactic is a diversion, an excuse, to stray from the fact you have no answers.

 

[dysert]

The Olivet discourse cannot be future because the city and temple were destroyed in 70ad. Christianity's stumbling block is not interpreting scripture correctly.

The prophecy is a parable, and God speaks in parables. The prophecy is as much a parable as the "Watch" parables. You could say the "Watch" parables are the continuation of the Olivet discourse prophecy:

No how do you suppose these verses fit into the Olivet discourse?

Christianity's stumbling block and the key to understanding the Olivet discourse is understanding how "those standing there" or "that generation" not "passing away" or not "tasting death" until they see the Son of Man returning on a cloud, etc, is interpreted. God is not a man that he should lie, so how could "that generation" not "taste death" until all those things were fulfilled? Rev 20.

Rev 20 is the only place since the dawn of creation that "death" is introduced to the world; mortal death is sleep. So, the true interpretation is that the prophecy is a parable, fulfilled in Rev 20's "Great White Throne" judgement.

The 2nd key to understanding why the prophecy isn't divided is believing exactly what the text says, and the text specifically states the "tribulation" was in those days:

Concrete proof the tribulation began right after the temple and city destruction. And though I know there are some who will deny this fact, please note it can never be denied in a court of law.

The "Blueprint" for understanding the prophecy continues:
So far we have 3 events: the temple and city destruction, tribulation after, and now the sun and moon darkening. This truly didn't happening in 70ad since the tribulation, though shortened, lasted past 70ad, but how do we interpret what the text specifically states was to happen? The answer: rightly interpreting Dan 7:11 and Rev 19:20. If we rightly interpret Dan 7:11 to be Rev 19:20 and Dan 7:9-10 to be Rev 4:1-2, we will rightly see Christ kingdom began during the reign of the scriptural 11th Roman emperor Nerva, Dan 7's fourth beast's 11th horn, the False Prophet, the 2nd beast in Revelation. We would rightly see that his two yrs reign was the shortening of the "tribulation," and that that part of the prophecy is also a prophecy that's fulfilled spiritually in the heavens (like the "that generation" parable), the proof Christ did inherit/possess the kingdom during the reign of these Roman kings, as prophesied in Dan 7:7-28 and in Revelation's account of the two beasts.

Once again, these are facts that can be denied by some, but not debunked by any; hence upheld in a court of law.

So, here endeth the lesson. Tomorrow will we do a review of what we've learned today.

Class is dismissed!

There are a number of errors in this post, but since you & I (et al.) are coming from completely different foundational perspectives there's little point in going through them.