the old testament?

[Guyfoo]

I wasn't really sure where to put this so i just stuck it in here.

Anyway, i see many christians on this form happly quote leviticus and his views on homosexuality from the old testament but when you qoute something like shaving is an abomination then the old testament is no longer relavent or out of context.

I want to know is the old testament the word of god and if so then why are people ignoring the parts that don't suit there lifestyle, such as eating pork?

And if it is not then what? did god change his mind? Or was put in the bible by accident?

Could someone please explain?

 

[WatersMoon110]

As far as dietary laws go, I believe that both Peter(?) and Paul make a case for why they no longer apply. Peter (or some other disciple) has a dream where God tells him that it is okay to eat pork. Paul makes the case that if Jewish laws could have saved people, then there would have been no need for Jesus to save everyone, and thus there is no longer a need to follow old laws.

Of course, I would make the case that if Jesus abolished dietary laws, He also abolished laws against men sleeping with male temple prostitutes and the like.

 

[SweetAngeline2]

When Jesus came he did away with the dietary rules, it's in...Paul's letters, I think. He did not however, recant God's views on homosexuality--in fact they are reiterated in 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10, and Romans 1:26-27.

 

[WatersMoon110]

When Jesus came he did away with the dietary rules, it's in...Paul's letters, I think. He did not however, recant God's views on homosexuality--in fact they are reiterated in 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10, and Romans 1:26-27.

Actually, Paul was apparently not talking about homosexuality, since he used a word different from any of the four Greek words used to describe homosexuals.

 

[Guyfoo]

Just for the record i wasn't being specific to deitary laws

"Jewish laws could have saved people, then there would have been no need for Jesus to save everyone, and thus there is no longer a need to follow old laws."

I am not sure i get this. So your saying people wern't following gods laws so he came back and said hey, forget about all those laws intead try these new ones(not in that context of course)

And if god knows what is going to happen before it happens then why would he hare created those laws in the first place. It just doesn't seem like something an all powerful and knowning god would do.

Also, the old testament is no longer relevent then why is it in the bible ?

 

[bunced]

As far as dietary laws go, I believe that both Peter(?) and Paul make a case for why they no longer apply. Peter (or some other disciple) has a dream where God tells him that it is okay to eat pork.

That was a symbolic dream, referring to the fact that both the Jews and the Gentiles can experience the hope that is found in Christ's message

 

[WatersMoon110]

Just for the record i wasn't being specific to deitary laws

"Jewish laws could have saved people, then there would have been no need for Jesus to save everyone, and thus there is no longer a need to follow old laws."

I am not sure i get this. So your saying people wern't following gods laws so he came back and said hey, forget about all those laws intead try these new ones(not in that context of course)

No. I'm saying that, assuming that one must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and rose from the dead to be saved, following the old laws does not lead to salvation.

Remember, Jesus berated the Pharisees, who strictly followed the old laws. Following all of the laws doesn't save people, Jesus does. And Jesus frees one from following any laws (according to Paul, anyway).

And if god knows what is going to happen before it happens then why would he hare created those laws in the first place. It just doesn't seem like something an all powerful and knowning god would do.

The only answer I can think of is what Jesus told to the Pharisees when they asked Him why God had permitted divorce, but Jesus was now speaking against it, that their hearts were "hardened" and so God gave them such rules.

Also, the old testament is no longer relevent then why is it in the bible ?

The Counsel of Nicaea?

 

[WatersMoon110]

That was a symbolic dream, referring to the fact that both the Jews and the Gentiles can experience the hope that is found in Christ's message

Maybe. Though, if it was Peter who had it, he did(according to Paul) agree with James, the (half)brother of Christ and first leader of the Church, that Gentiles should become Jewish (circumcised) before they became Christian.

 

[Merlin]

It really depends on the context of the question.
Is it a question of what is the law?
What is a sin?
Who does this law apply to?
etc.
Context is everything.

 

[WarEagle]

I wasn't really sure where to put this so i just stuck it in here.

Anyway, i see many christians on this form happly quote leviticus and his views on homosexuality from the old testament but when you qoute something like shaving is an abomination then the old testament is no longer relavent or out of context.

I want to know is the old testament the word of god and if so then why are people ignoring the parts that don't suit there lifestyle, such as eating pork?

Why should we follow commands that weren't given to us?

 

[Guyfoo]

It really depends on the context of the question.
Is it a question of what is the law?
What is a sin?
Who does this law apply to?
etc.
Context is everything.

I see what your saying, but is it not hard to decied what was law of the time, and what is sin?
Also i assume you don't take the bible a the whole word of god. This post is more aimed at people who believe the bible is the word of god. But yeah the more the merrier.

Why should we follow commands that weren't given to us?

*shrug* I don't follow commandments

 

[WarEagle]

*shrug* I don't follow commandments

But you seem to expect us to follow commands that weren't even given to us. Seems a little inconsistent on your part.

 

[Merlin]

I see what your saying, but is it not hard to decied what was law of the time, and what is sin?
Also i assume you don't take the bible a the whole word of god. This post is more aimed at people who believe the bible is the word of god. But yeah the more the merrier.

I am a fundamentalist/literalist.
No, it's not hard at all to decide the law and sin.
The Bible is quite clear.

 

[Guyfoo]

But you seem to expect us to follow commands that weren't even given to us. Seems a little inconsistent on your part.

Ohhh wait sorry, i misread your reply, i thaugh you said commandments, and i actually didn't have a clue what you were on about. I understand now. Okay what i am saying is, people are happy to quote the old testament when it comes to things like homosexuality but then compleatly ignore the rest of its teachings because it doesn't suit there lifestyle. Just to make that clear

Now to what you said. Maybe it was just my church but i was raised to believe that the old testament was also the word of god. It is one half of the christian bible, therefore part of the christian teachings. So i would think it is part your commands from god. I don't know maybe i am getting this all wrong but for some reason i can't see god having a chage of mind or giving one set of people to follow these rules and another to a diffrent set of people. It just doesn't make sense

But anyway, i assume you don't qoute the old testament then since it isn't part of the christian teachings.

I am a fundamentalist/literalist.
No, it's not hard at all to decide the law and sin.
The Bible is quite clear.

Are you sure? I would love to know how you can tell?

 

[WarEagle]

Okay what i am saying is, people are happy to quote the old testament when it comes to things like homosexuality but then compleatly ignore the rest of its teachings because it doesn't suit there lifestyle. Just to make that clear

Again, we don't practice the things you're talking about (ie. shellfish, shaving the corners of your beard, etc) not because they don't suit our lifestyle, but because they weren't things that we're commanded to do.

Those were things that were given to the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant, not to the church under the New Covenant.

The reason we do observe the OT's condemnation of homosexuality is that the Bible repeats God's condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament, to the church under the New Covenant.

I think maybe where you're getting confused is that there are several different kinds of laws in the OT (ie. "dietary", "ceremonial", "moral", etc.)

Dietary and ceremonial laws, which would include the shellfish thing and shaving your beard were done away with.

The moral laws were not. That's why it's still a sin to steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.

Now to what you said. Maybe it was just my church but i was raised to believe that the old testament was also the word of god.

It is.

It is one half of the christian bible

It's actually about 2/3 of the Bible.

therefore part of the christian teachings.
So i would think it is part your commands from god. I don't know maybe i am getting this all wrong but for some reason i can't see god having a chage of mind or giving one set of people to follow these rules and another to a diffrent set of people. It just doesn't make sense

It may not make sense to you, but if you're going to say that we should follow the Bible when it says that we shouldn't eat shellfish, then, if you're going to be consistent, then you should also understand why we follow the Bible when it tells us that those things are not for us.

But anyway, i assume you don't qoute the old testament then since it isn't part of the christian teachings.

They are a part of the "Christian teachings" and I quote them all the time. In fact, I'm teaching an Old Testament survey in our church right now.

 

[Merlin]

Are you sure?

Quite sure.

 

[sbvera13]

The Bible is quite clear.

Acts 5:29
We ought to obey God rather than men.

1 Peter 2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man.

How do you know which one follow?

 

[TheManeki]

That was a symbolic dream, referring to the fact that both the Jews and the Gentiles can experience the hope that is found in Christ's message

Exactly. I have that part of the passage quoted as my signature.

I also think, by extension, that passage applies to more than just jews and gentiles. I think it applies to gays, atheists, and even to people who get under my skin. Especially to people who get under my skin. And that's a hard rule to follow.

 

[Stinker]

If one does not consider all the studies concerning the 'Old Testament and homosexuality' they are making a grievious mistake, I believe. I know, because I grew up in the faith with the fundamentalist only understanding. I did a lot of damage to many people (psychologically/emotionally) because of this. It wasn't till years later that I was finally reached through repeated logical arguments presented to me. The conservative shell is very, very, thick.

My respose to people making the argument that lesbianism is not mentioned...therefore not condemed, was that it was just understood that sense God condemned the males for it....that He just figured He shouldn't have to repeat it for the females. The only time this broke down was when God mentioned both sexes in regards to beastiality.

 

[ebia]

I wasn't really sure where to put this so i just stuck it in here.

Anyway, i see many christians on this form happly quote leviticus and his views on homosexuality from the old testament but when you qoute something like shaving is an abomination then the old testament is no longer relavent or out of context.

I want to know is the old testament the word of god and if so then why are people ignoring the parts that don't suit there lifestyle, such as eating pork?

And if it is not then what? did god change his mind? Or was put in the bible by accident?

Could someone please explain?

It all has it's place in the narative. It's all "relevent" still, in that we can learn things from it, but it would be explicitly wrong, say, to keep those laws that were designed to keep Israel separate as that runs directly counter to what is now needed.

The Old Testament's authority is not for telling us what to do, but for telling us what has gone before so that how we play our part in God's unfolding drama is consistant with the earlier acts.