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The Old Testament originally does not believe in the existence of the soul.

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Rami77

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"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?
 

All Becomes New

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Interesting observation. However, there is a problem with your understanding, but it is not your fault.

"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)

Jesus uses a passage from the Torah to demonstrate there will be a final resurrection to the Sadducees who did not believe in the final resurrection.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

Christians have latched onto the idea of a specific "soul" because the writings of the New Testament seem to indicate that they have valued it, however indiscernible and inexplicable the idea actually is.

Since I can't get into a time-machine and go back and ask someone like Saul of Tarsus why he thought as he did, I have to instead settle for progressive study on the subject, such as can be had by doing a little historical and cultural inquiry ...

 
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Lukaris

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Actually some Jews did believe that the breath of life is our soul. It is true they had ( & have) varying beliefs but St. Paul testifies that Adam was made a living soul ( 1 Corinthians 15:45). Actually read all of 1 Corinthians 15:1-58 on the total matter of life & resurrection etc.

The KJV is most precise on this:


1 Corinthians 15:45

King James Version

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
 
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Rami77

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Interesting observation. However, there is a problem with your understanding, but it is not your fault.

"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32)

Jesus uses a passage from the Torah to demonstrate there will be a final resurrection to the Sadducees who did not believe in the final resurrection.
Thank you for your reply.
I know that there are some indications of resurrection in OT, but I still believe the Jews and their book originally don't believe in the existence of the soul or the afterlife.
 
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Rami77

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Christians have latched onto the idea of a specific "soul" because the writings of the New Testament seem to indicate that they have valued it, however indiscernible and inexplicable the idea actually is.

Since I can't get into a time-machine and go back and ask someone like Saul of Tarsus why he thought as he did, I have to instead settle for progressive study on the subject, such as can be had by doing a little historical and cultural inquiry ...

Thank you for your valuable participation. :praying:
 
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Rami77

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Actually some Jews did believe that the breath of life is our soul. It is true they had ( & have) varying beliefs but St. Paul testifies that Adam was made a living soul ( 1 Corinthians 15:45). Actually read all of 1 Corinthians 15:1-58 on the total matter of life & resurrection etc.

The KJV is most precise on this:


1 Corinthians 15:45​

King James Version​

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Thank you for your participation. :praying:
 
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trophy33

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The Old Testament originally does not believe in the existence of the soul.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?
I think you are somehow mistaken. The search for the word "soul" just in the Old Testament yielded 628 verses.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

Rami. I think I'm guilty of having not actually answered your question: "Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?"

Personally, I think modern Christians hold onto the book of Genesis because it was valued by early first century Christians, and they claim it was alluded to and referenced by Jesus, Himself.

Moreover, many modern Christians also believe that God's prophetic utterances to humanity are progressive in nature, with God giving a little more for people of the ancient world to know, bit by bit, until the time came about in which Jesus was to appear in the 1st century.

Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to find that Moses didn't have much to say about the human "soul"... ??? Nevertheless, Moses was a prophetic predeccesor to Jesus, and Jesus valued him.
 
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Rami77

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I think you are somehow mistaken. The search for the word "soul" just in the Old Testament yielded 628 verses.
They are about God as a Ruah. I'm a native speaker. I can tell much about the word Ruah (Soul). It means comfort or relief. The sunny hot weather of the Middle East makes people feel discomfort. When the wind comes, people feel comforted and relieved. So, they named the wind Reeh or Rauh because it brings comfort. Jews would describe God as Ruah because he is like the wind: powerful and unseen.
 
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tampasteve

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the Jews and their book
Just to be clear, it is our book as well. The Old Testament is just as much a part of the collection of books that we call the "Bible" as the New Testament is. Both are necessary for the faith.
 
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trophy33

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They are about God as a Ruah. I'm a native speaker. I can tell much about the word Ruah (Soul). It means comfort or relief. The sunny hot weather of the Middle East makes people feel discomfort. When the wind comes, people feel comforted and relieved. So, they named the wind Reeh or Rauh because it brings comfort. Jews would describe God as Ruah because he is like the wind: powerful and unseen.
Again, you seem to be somehow mistaken. There are hundreds of verses in the Old Testament using the word soul and its not ruah.

For example:
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Dt 6:5

Transliteration: nephesh
Definition: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
 
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Rami77

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Rami. I think I'm guilty of having not actually answered your question: "Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?"

Personally, I think modern Christians hold onto the book of Genesis because it was valued by early first century Christians, and they claim it was alluded to and referenced by Jesus, Himself.

Moreover, many modern Christians also believe that God's prophetic utterances to humanity are progressive in nature, with God giving a little more for people of the ancient world to know, bit by bit, until the time came about in which Jesus was to appear in the 1st century.

Maybe we shouldn't be surprised to find that Moses didn't have much to say about the human "soul"... ??? Nevertheless, Moses was a prophetic predeccesor to Jesus, and Jesus valued him.
with God giving a little more for people of the ancient world to know, bit by bit, until the time came about in which Jesus was to appear in the 1st century.
Why bring it up bit by bit when the Egyptians already knew about the soul and afterlife a long time ago?

The author of OT was clear about it; Man is made of dust!
Are you familiar with the Golem story by the Jews? The Golem was made of mud, like Adam. Then a rabbi wrote the name of God on its head to get it animated, as Adam got animated by God's breath. No soul was required!

Thank you for your participation.
 
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Rami77

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Just to be clear, it is our book as well. The Old Testament is just as much a part of the collection of books that we call the "Bible" as the New Testament is. Both are necessary for the faith.
I believe in every word came out of the mouth of Jesus, and Jesus is my only teacher. If Jesus is all I need to be saved, then why go to others?

"
MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD
ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT
PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF
GOD
.
" (Matthew, 4:4)

"
He opened His mouth and began to
teach them, saying
" (Matthew, 5:2)

"
But do not be called Rabbi; for One is
your Teacher,
and you are all brothers.
" (Matthew, 23:8)

"
THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH
THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS
FAR AWAY FROM ME.
BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE
PRECEPTS OF MEN.
" (Matthew, 15:8)

I don't follow the old testament. All I need to be saved is in the words of Jesus in the Gospels.
 
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Rami77

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Again, you seem to be somehow mistaken. There are hundreds of verses in the Old Testament using the word soul and its not ruah.

For example:
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Dt 6:5

Transliteration: nephesh
Definition: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
That's true. That's why I said 'originally.' It means when the book was started there is no belief in the soul's existence.
 
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trophy33

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That's true. That's why I said 'originally.' It means when the book was started there is no belief in the soul's existence.
I do not understand what you mean. Deuteronomium is not original?

Or do you propose that Genesis was written first and then nothing else for a long time?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why bring it up bit by bit when the Egyptians already knew about the soul and afterlife a long time ago?
The Egyptians had their own doctrines about "the soul," but this isn't to say that the Egyptians were correct either theologically or even anthropologically, speaking in modern terms about it. We don't know that they were any more or less correct than were the later Greeks. We also would have to do some analytic study to see what conceptual differences the Egyptians had about the nature of the human soul in contrast to what 1st century Christians--or Jesus--had.

And why did God bring clarification in bit by bit? That's a good question, Rami, and I don't think there is an easy or clear answer to that.
The author of OT was clear about it; Man is made of dust!
I don't think we can say he [Moses?] was "clear" about it when 1) Man's being made from dust doesn't clearly and distinctly explain anything to the reader in a comprehensive manner, and 2) this statement isn't necessarily above or prior to all other statements about the nature of Humanity made in the Old Testament, or even in the book of Genesis itself. The place of Genesis isn't dependent on whether or not it mentions or explains the human soul. More specifically, what we find in the Old Testament theology alludes to the view that human beings are unified beings, so it would be more appropriate to say Moses likely thought of people as "being" souls rather than "having" souls in some distinct separateness.
Are you familiar with the Golem story by the Jews? The Golem was made of mud, like Adam. Then a rabbi wrote the name of God on its head to get it animated, as Adam got animated by God's breath. No soul was required!

Thank you for your participation.

Yes, I am familiar with the Golem story. Unfortunately, like the story of Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, I don't think the medieval Jewish myth of the Golem is relevant to the issue of whether or not we should value the Old Testament or even the book of Genesis.

While as Christians we aren't required to agree with all of the various tropes of Rabbinic/Talmudic Jewish thought, not to mention Kabbalistic thought, the place of Genesis as a part of the overall Tradition (or Canon) of biblical and also Christian thought is one that can't be readily jettisoned in a wholesale manner.

I think you're welcome to place the New Testament in priority over the Old Testament; I know I do. But I don't think we can simply dismiss it altogether since it provides the prophetic background and genetic identity by which the Messiah (i.e. Jesus) was to arrive into the World.

It would be unwise, and unscholarly, to evict the Old Testament from our biblical thought and erroneously take some view akin to that of Marcion.
 
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Rami77

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the god of the old testament is not our Father, but mans perception of Him ... or as Jesus put it "All who came before Me were thieves and robbers,"

none the less the old testament is as inspired by Him as the new ...
"All who came before Me were thieves and robbers,"
I love this verse. I believe in this verse to the letters.
 
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"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?
This was before the fall.
 
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