The Old Testament for Christians

[visionary]

The quote in the OP is wacky and is poorly thought out. Classic cult mentality- everyone is wrong but us.

If I didn't have a life, I would address it point by point. But I have a life.

Good thing he has come here to learn more.

 

[visionary]

I am looking for feedback on something I wrote which is copied below. I don't know much about Messianic Judaism but I just ran into a Messianic blog about keeping the Torah, and that inspired me to post here. What I wrote below was written with Orthodox Christians in mind, but I am curious to know what Messianics think of it.



Q. What is the Old Testament?

A. The Old Testament is God's ethics explained in a collection of many types of writing.

Mount Sinai reveals God's kingdom, laws, ordinances, statutes, and what is required to live a righteous life in His eyes.

Q. Is this ethics required for salvation?

Would God do anything that does not pertain to our salvation, way of Life, truth, and our life in Him? if yes, then learn the wisdom in following them.

A. No, not in the Christian view. The Christian view is that salvation comes from faith in Christ.

Without God there is no salvation

Q. Then what is the point of the Old Testament for Christians?

Lots... hang around us and you will see why we believers find the old testament packed with God's wisdom, prophecies, knowledge, and practicality for daily living to His glory.

A. Those with true faith in Christ should want to follow Christ which clearly includes trying to adhere to God's will, and God's will includes the ethics of the Old Testament. Jesus prayed that "Thy will be done" (Thy referring to God). James said "faith without works is dead". Being ethical is referred to in Christianity as "works". Since faith should imply works, works are proof of faith.

Yep

Q. Is there any other benefit to following God's ethics?

So many blessings that it is like opening up another world that God lives in and sitting down at His table and understanding what He means when He said this or that. Worth every order He requires to be obeyed.

A. Yes, the Old Testament repeatedly points out that a society that follows God's ethics will prosper but an unethical society will fail, for example in Deuteronomy 28. In an ethical society, people can trust each other and this trust makes the society strong. It also makes life better for moral people.

Yes, it is for this world and the world to come. The more who are involved in living His Way, the better it is for everyone.

Q. What about those Christians who claim to have faith without works? A. Their faith is a lie.

Their faith has a long ways to go. Like a child who obeys their parents without understanding all the ins and outs of why. As they mature, the understanding comes... or the rebellion.

Q. But millions of Protestant claim this. A. Modern Protestants are the world's biggest liars and their faith is the ultimate lie. These modern Protestants all believe that they are like prophets and have a direct line to God who tells them what to do. Of course this is nonsense and what they interpret as God's word is nothing more than their own emotions telling them what to do. So in fact their faith is in their own emotions, not in Christ or God. Their worship is self-worship. They do this in God's name, violating the third of the Ten Commandments which says not to misuse God's name. How can I be sure of this? Jesus addressed modern Protestantism directly here:

--------------------------------------------------
“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
--------------------------------------------------
Matthew 7:15-23

What kind of fruit does modern Protestantism produce? Clearly bad fruit, every modern Protestant society today is a moral disgrace.

While you may be lumping the bunch, it doesn't change that some individuals are hearing the call to come out.

Q. But wasn't the Reformation all about overthrowing the unjustified works of the Catholic Church? A. Yes, but these works weren't God's works. The Catholic Church also misused God's name to invent works in the name of God that aren't actually works of God. Martin Luther rejected these Catholic works but offered no substitute. John Calvin fixed this by correctly pointing out that true faith should produce true works as found in the ethics of the Bible. Though Luther and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on many theological points, this is one point on which they are in complete agreement.

Light comes a little at a time. Like a good shepherd, God leads them as fast as they are able to handle.

Q. So then Protestantism was on the right path? A. Yes, on this issue, early Protestantism was on the right path. This was true of all early Protestant sects influenced by Calvin and was especially true of the Puritans. And what were the fruits of this form of Protestantism? The Enlightenment, the British Empire, and the United States. Not bad, I think. Judged by these fruits, the early Protestants were doing something right.

Every step of the way, you can see God's hand leading.

Q. So where did Protestantism go wrong? A. In America in the early 1800s in the Christian Second Great Awakening. This was time of public fairs full of snake oil salesmen, and religion was much the same. All kinds of religious claims were being sold to the public, but the one that took hold, the easy remedy for salvation, was that an emotional experience that one took to mean "accepting Christ" was the means for Salvation. In particular, a preacher named Charles Finney promoted this view. This was a clear rejection of John Calvin's views including his view of the relationship between faith and works. So Christian works died for Protestants. From this point on, Protestant societies went into moral decline.

This doesn't mean the the truth isn't marching on. God's children hear His voice and they are still following. It will soon be just a remnant. Believers will always be awaiting for His return. God protects His own.

Q. Didn't Christ come to replace the Law with Faith? A. The whole concept of "the Law" is misunderstood. The Old Testament is not a law book, it is a book of ethics. The Old Testament contains laws that were specific to the Israelite society of that time. These laws are examples of applied ethics, but these laws were never meant to be eternal, not even for Jews. The part of the Old Testament that contains these laws is called the "Torah" in Hebrew, and Torah means "teaching", not "law". Of course some laws are so basic that they are in fact fundamental ethical principles, so they are eternal because ethical principles are eternal. The obvious example of this is the Ten Commandments.

You do know that you are preaching to the choir.

Q. So then what is all this talk about "the Law" about? A. In fact it is the Pharisees who made Judaism legalistic. They focused on law instead of ethics and then they added their own laws. Jesus particularly objected to the added laws of the Pharisees. Jesus defended the Old Testament in Matthew 5:17-20. In English translations, Jesus seems to be defending "the Law" but in Hebrew versions of Matthew that were found, Jesus says "the Torah", not "the Law", which means that Jesus is defending the teachings of the Old Testament. Paul attacked the Law which is not what the Old Testament is really about and is largely a construct of the Pharisees.

Yes Yeshua is defending the law. Paul is controversial even in his day with the things he said and did.

Q. How can one be sure that the Old Testament is really about ethics and not law? A. Just read it. What do the prophets talk about? What does most of the Old Testament talk about? Is it law or is it ethics? Read it and decide for yourself.

You have a good starting point. I hope that those further behind you see what you are presenting and come closer.

Q. Aren't Jews the ones who follow the Old Testament? A. Not at all. Most Jews today are Rabbinic Jews and Rabbinic Jews follow the Talmud, not the Old Testament. The Talmud is based on the Old Testament but twists it beyond recognition and explicitly rejects God's authority which is replaced by the authority of the rabbis (Talmud, Bava Metzia 59a-b). The Orthodox rabbis of today are the direct descendants of the Pharisees. It is Orthodox Jewish law that every Orthodox rabbi must be taught by another rabbi which connects in an unbroken chain back to the Pharisees from the time of Jesus.

You would be amazed of the reports coming in of rabbis today coming to the faith and preaching the gospel. It is really good news. The time of the gentiles is about over now.

Q. Should Rabbinic Judaism be hated for twisting God's word? A. No. Catholicism and modern Protestantism also twist God's word. We should focus on improving ourselves instead of hating others for being misguided.

No believer should hate.

Q. Is all Judaism so misguided? A. No, Karaite Judaism follows the Old Testament, but it is a small sect of Judaism.

Aren't we all in some aspect, in one way or another. As Yeshua said, we all have gone astray.

Q. Who else follows the Old Testament? A. The Puritans followed the ethical principles of the Old Testament better than Jews ever did. The ethical principles of God are available to anyone who wants to follow them. Unfortunately it seems that few major religions are interested in God's ethics today. That is why the modern world is such a mess.

I think your focus too much on others rather than what is ahead for our own salvation. Many think that once saved always saved. But there is more to it than just getting in the door. There are things that are required and one of them is to walk in the light.

Q. How should a Christian follow God's ethics today?
A. Read the Bible and follow it.

That is a start. Make sure that they pray earnestly for guidance and courage to follow Him in the face of what they have been taught, thought they knew, or what interferes with their current lifestyle.

Q. But many parts of the Old Testament seem archaic. How should these parts be applied?A. One needs to understand the historical context and use this to find the underlying principles which can be applied today. I admit that this isn't easy. So it is best to do this with the help of an Old Testament Bible study group.

That is a subject that takes more than one post to cover.

Q. Where can one find a good Old Testament study group? A. I offer an online Old Testament study group here:

Scripturist

We have many resources available for you to learn more about Messianic Judaism if you are interested.

I also plan to offer a local group in El Paso where I live. You can also ask your priest.

We do not have priests.

Q. Are you, the author, Christian? A. No, my beliefs are similar to Karaite Judaism.

That is a good start.

Q. Why should we listen to you if you aren't Christian? A. Jesus considered the good Samaritan to be his neighbor. The Samaritans weren't just any group, like most pagans. The Samaritans worshipped the same God as the Jews and had almost the same Torah. So Jesus's point was that people who share the same God and same ethics, and prove this by actually helping each other, are neighbors even if they have different beliefs and different ethnicity. True neighbors should help each other, so I would like to help Christians understand the Old Testament.

I hope that adds more to what you have started here.

 

[fschmidt]

Thanks visionary, I really appreciate that you took the time to respond. I am satisfied with your answers and I would gladly join a church/synagogue that reflected your opinion. Of course you have to understand that I am not Christian/Messianic. My motive is very simple, I want to be around good people. You said "we all have gone astray" but some are worse than other. I personally find modern culture to absolutely horrible, and even if you say that we shouldn't hate, I do hate modern culture and its members. I would never hate anyone for their beliefs, but beyond a threshold of immorality, I can no longer tolerate people.

If Messianic Judaism follows the Torah, which would make it moral, and it isn't racist, then I would be interested in joining a group. I live in El Paso and there is one Messianic synagogue here but I was very dissatisfied with its service. There was no emphasis on morality. Maybe it is an exception, and I am here to find out.

 

[visionary]

Is this too far away?

ETZ Chayim-Tree-Life
134 S Main St
Las Cruces, NM
(866) 874-7250

http://www.etz-chayim.org/who-we-are/our-beliefs

 

[fschmidt]

Is this too far away?

ETZ Chayim-Tree-Life

It's not too far but I generally don't drive on shabbat, but I would make an exception for this. They list "Bible Study - 4:30pm" on their home page but don't say what day of the week. Do you know? If not, I will ask them. I would try the Bible Study first if it isn't on shabbat.

 

[mercy1061]

I am looking for feedback on something I wrote which is copied below. I don't know much about Messianic Judaism but I just ran into a Messianic blog about keeping the Torah, and that inspired me to post here. What I wrote below was written with Orthodox Christians in mind, but I am curious to know what Messianics think of it.


Q. What is the Old Testament?

A. The Old Testament is God's ethics explained in a collection of many types of writing.

I consider the old testament to be the old testament from the bible. Of course I always say "torah kingdom law" is the first place to start.

Q. Is this ethics required for salvation?

A. No, not in the Christian view. The Christian view is that salvation comes from faith in Christ.

Each person have a different ethical code, so I will have to say no. Ethics today is different than ethics in the 1800's when USA and Great Britain were built upon legalized slavery.

Q. Then what is the point of the Old Testament for Christians?

A. Those with true faith in Christ should want to follow Christ which clearly includes trying to adhere to God's will, and God's will includes the ethics of the Old Testament. Jesus prayed that "Thy will be done" (Thy referring to God). James said "faith without works is dead". Being ethical is referred to in Christianity as "works". Since faith should imply works, works are proof of faith.

You ask broad questions for a mass group of people, each christian would have to answer that question. What if the ancient jews were called christians?

Q. Is there any other benefit to following God's ethics?

A. Yes, the Old Testament repeatedly points out that a society that follows God's ethics will prosper but an unethical society will fail, for example in Deuteronomy 28. In an ethical society, people can trust each other and this trust makes the society strong. It also makes life better for moral people.

What you call ethics, the torah does not call ethics. Ethics change, torah kingdom law does not change.

Q. What about those Christians who claim to have faith without works?

A. Their faith is a lie.

Q. But millions of Protestant claim this.

A. Modern Protestants are the world's biggest liars and their faith is the ultimate lie. These modern Protestants all believe that they are like prophets and have a direct line to God who tells them what to do. Of course this is nonsense and what they interpret as God's word is nothing more than their own emotions telling them what to do. So in fact their faith is in their own emotions, not in Christ or God. Their worship is self-worship. They do this in God's name, violating the third of the Ten Commandments which says not to misuse God's name. How can I be sure of this? Jesus addressed modern Protestantism directly here:

--------------------------------------------------
“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
--------------------------------------------------
Matthew 7:15-23

What kind of fruit does modern Protestantism produce? Clearly bad fruit, every modern Protestant society today is a moral disgrace.

Q. But wasn't the Reformation all about overthrowing the unjustified works of the Catholic Church?

A. Yes, but these works weren't God's works. The Catholic Church also misused God's name to invent works in the name of God that aren't actually works of God. Martin Luther rejected these Catholic works but offered no substitute. John Calvin fixed this by correctly pointing out that true faith should produce true works as found in the ethics of the Bible. Though Luther and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on many theological points, this is one point on which they are in complete agreement.

Q. So then Protestantism was on the right path?

A. Yes, on this issue, early Protestantism was on the right path. This was true of all early Protestant sects influenced by Calvin and was especially true of the Puritans. And what were the fruits of this form of Protestantism? The Enlightenment, the British Empire, and the United States. Not bad, I think. Judged by these fruits, the early Protestants were doing something right.

James was a jew, and you give gentile christian the credit for what was written down by the hand of a jew. This is the issue I have with your question, you did not give proper credit to the author. Gentiles did not write about faith and works, and you expect them to honestly tell you what it means? I do not agree with John Calvin.

Q. So where did Protestantism go wrong?

A. In America in the early 1800s in the Christian Second Great Awakening. This was time of public fairs full of snake oil salesmen, and religion was much the same. All kinds of religious claims were being sold to the public, but the one that took hold, the easy remedy for salvation, was that an emotional experience that one took to mean "accepting Christ" was the means for Salvation. In particular, a preacher named Charles Finney promoted this view. This was a clear rejection of John Calvin's views including his view of the relationship between faith and works. So Christian works died for Protestants. From this point on, Protestant societies went into moral decline.

You claim that early protestants were on the right path, but did you know that early protestants owned slaves, yet you are against racism? It is like saying George Washington was the first president?

Q. Didn't Christ come to replace the Law with Faith?

A. The whole concept of "the Law" is misunderstood. The Old Testament is not a law book, it is a book of ethics. The Old Testament contains laws that were specific to the Israelite society of that time. These laws are examples of applied ethics, but these laws were never meant to be eternal, not even for Jews. The part of the Old Testament that contains these laws is called the "Torah" in Hebrew, and Torah means "teaching", not "law". Of course some laws are so basic that they are in fact fundamental ethical principles, so they are eternal because ethical principles are eternal. The obvious example of this is the Ten Commandments.

Ethics are not mandatory; voluntary, law is mandatory. All successful societies have laws to govern them.

Q. So then what is all this talk about "the Law" about?

A. In fact it is the Pharisees who made Judaism legalistic. They focused on law instead of ethics and then they added their own laws. Jesus particularly objected to the added laws of the Pharisees. Jesus defended the Old Testament in Matthew 5:17-20. In English translations, Jesus seems to be defending "the Law" but in Hebrew versions of Matthew that were found, Jesus says "the Torah", not "the Law", which means that Jesus is defending the teachings of the Old Testament. Paul attacked the Law which is not what the Old Testament is really about and is largely a construct of the Pharisees.

Again, you sound like a calvinist, with this idea of causing division among Pharisee Saul and the Pharisees. You say Pharisee Saul attacked the law, then you say the pharisees are legalistic, I disagree with both of your claims. All of the pharisees taught the law, Yeshua told the jews to obey them.

Q. How can one be sure that the Old Testament is really about ethics and not law?

A. Just read it. What do the prophets talk about? What does most of the Old Testament talk about? Is it law or is it ethics? Read it and decide for yourself.

You mean the "law and prophets", the two or three witnesses required to establish law that gave birth to faith from the patriarchs? Of course, you can always observe the simple "law of nature".

Q. Aren't Jews the ones who follow the Old Testament?

A. Not at all. Most Jews today are Rabbinic Jews and Rabbinic Jews follow the Talmud, not the Old Testament. The Talmud is based on the Old Testament but twists it beyond recognition and explicitly rejects God's authority which is replaced by the authority of the rabbis (Talmud, Bava Metzia 59a-b). The Orthodox rabbis of today are the direct descendants of the Pharisees. It is Orthodox Jewish law that every Orthodox rabbi must be taught by another rabbi which connects in an unbroken chain back to the Pharisees from the time of Jesus.

Q. Should Rabbinic Judaism be hated for twisting God's word?

A. No. Catholicism and modern Protestantism also twist God's word. We should focus on improving ourselves instead of hating others for being misguided.

Q. Is all Judaism so misguided?

A. No, Karaite Judaism follows the Old Testament, but it is a small sect of Judaism.

Q. Who else follows the Old Testament?

A. The Puritans followed the ethical principles of the Old Testament better than Jews ever did. The ethical principles of God are available to anyone who wants to follow them. Unfortunately it seems that few major religions are interested in God's ethics today. That is why the modern world is such a mess.

Q. How should a Christian follow God's ethics today?

A. Read the Bible and follow it.

Q. But many parts of the Old Testament seem archaic. How should these parts be applied?

A. One needs to understand the historical context and use this to find the underlying principles which can be applied today. I admit that this isn't easy. So it is best to do this with the help of an Old Testament Bible study group.

Q. Where can one find a good Old Testament study group?

A. I offer an online Old Testament study group here:

Scripturist

I also plan to offer a local group in El Paso where I live. You can also ask your priest.

Q. Are you, the author, Christian?

A. No, my beliefs are similar to Karaite Judaism.

"The law of nature" is for everyone, including the animals. Observe the rainbow in the cloud.

Q. Why should we listen to you if you aren't Christian?

A. Jesus considered the good Samaritan to be his neighbor. The Samaritans weren't just any group, like most pagans. The Samaritans worshipped the same God as the Jews and had almost the same Torah. So Jesus's point was that people who share the same God and same ethics, and prove this by actually helping each other, are neighbors even if they have different beliefs and different ethnicity. True neighbors should help each other, so I would like to help Christians understand the Old Testament.

I thought the samaritans (Mount Gerazim) were related to the jews and/or judiasm. The pharisees even called Yeshua a samaritan, Yeshua descended from the tribe of Judah. Samaritan actually means "torah keeper". Moses divided the 12 tribes of Israel into two groups, 6 tribes to worship at Mt Ebal (where the altar was built) and 6 tribes tribes to gather at Mt Gerazim.

 

[mercy1061]

Again, the agreements between Yeshua and the Pharisees are such that we can assume they agreed except when stated otherwise, something that does not apply to Buddhists or Zoroastrians or Odinists or Tzedukim. Any serious student of religion that does not have an ideological "axe to grind" will come to the same conclusion.

I agree. This is an excellent point, I am so glad you said it.

The Sadducees did not believe in resurrection, according to the NT, and there is no reason to dispute that New Testamentarian claim.

I will have to disagree with you here, the Sadducees believed in the resurrection, but they viewed the resurrection differently than the pharisees such that their theological position would mean to most that they disagreed with the resurrection. The sadducees have an interesting view or interpretation concerning the resurrection. Yeshua agreed with them as well.
This is why he cleverly avoided their question, by saying the law only applies to those who are living, Pharisee Saul understood the wisdom of Yeshua's answer. The Sadducees attempted to trap Yeshua by having him apply the law of Moses to a wife after death. This is why they were wrong, but it was still an excellent question, and by their question you can clearly read they believed in the resurrection.


The sadducees example/question fits rather nicely within what is taught inside the law of Moses. Christians misinterpret Matt 22:23-24

23 The Sadducees did not believe that people would rise to life after death. So that same day some of the Sadducees came to Jesus and said:

24 Teacher, Moses wrote that if a married man dies and has no children, his brother should marry the widow. Their first son would then be thought of as the son of the dead brother.

The key to unlock the door is: Matt 22:28, we read a resurrection presumption is made in their question to Yeshua

28 When God raises people from death, whose wife will this woman be? She had been married to all seven brothers.

The followers of Yeshua took the side of Pharisees over against Sadducees on this and probably other issues as well. There is NOT ONE recorded instance of a Sadducee following Yeshua or supporting the movement of Yeshua, whereas the gospels and NT is filled with stories of Pharisees converting or being favorable to Yeshua, from Paul to Nicodemus.

I agree in part, Yeshua agreed with the pharisees and the sadducees. Yeshua publicly endorsed the pharisees since publicly they were the strictest torah teachers, but he also rebuked them. Yeshua said "woe to them".To my knowledge Yeshua never rebuked any sadducees. Something to ponder.

For those interested in learning the historical, unbiased truth about Pharisees and Sadducees, I recommend this excellent study:

Pharisees and Sadducees - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Although I proudly wear the mj label, I reserve the right to be a free thinker. This is what "torah kingdom law" is all about, Moses leading the ancient jews out of the land of bondage. Why would I leave the pharoah's house, then make a bunch of rules that do not agree with torah to enslave myself and my brothers?

 

[Hoshiyya]

You are actually confirming my point here. I agree that Protestantism went bad quickly, but during its brief success it shined brighter than the other cultures you mentioned. And as I said, one needs a priesthood or aristocracy for stability. Democracy is intrinsically unstable and doesn't last long. The cultures you mentioned weren't democratic, and China had a Confucian meritocracy which is close to optimal for stability.

I will look into the authors you mentioned, I haven't read them.

Well I guess I agree with your point then.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Could you elaborate? I have browsed the Talmud, not read it. What part of the Talmud would you recommend I read? What Pharisee doctrine did Jesus endorse? What is wrong with my view of the Samaritans and what is wrong (nontrivially) with their beliefs?

fwiw , i wouldn't recommend reading nor studying the talmud. (for several reasons, mostly because too much in it seems as wrong as the errors of the ecf in the world church -- unless enough time and care is taken to pick out just what is right according to Scripture; basically i guess,if you read any of it, as anything else, test test test, don't count on it as authoritative or correct, but only as questionable and unreliable source)

 

[annier]

fwiw , i wouldn't recommend reading nor studying the talmud. (for several reasons, mostly because too much in it seems as wrong as the errors of the ecf in the world church -- unless enough time and care is taken to pick out just what is right according to Scripture; basically i guess,if you read any of it, as anything else, test test test, don't count on it as authoritative or correct, but only as questionable and unreliable source)

I think talmud can be useful to understand cultural context of the scripture. But...even there, much might be different than what was original Judaism.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The quote in the OP is wacky and is poorly thought out. Classic cult mentality- everyone is wrong but us.

If I didn't have a life, I would address it point by point. But I have a life.

Good thing he has come here to learn more.

Unfortunately, based on what has been done before in other places, it seems the goal really wasn't to learn more as much as to have a platform for blasting the OT with the appearance of asking questions. This is said in light of things which occurred before where the same questions in the OP were asked - and after going through dialogue, it was said explictly where the OT could not be trusted (even after others noted otherwise) and that even people like Joshua could not be trusted....with him promoting a book he made on the issue. All of that really comes off as an attempt to Prosthelytize on the forums (despite saying one is not a believer in Christ ) - something which the forums don't allow for non-Christians to do anyhow.

On calling the OT account a lie and denouncing Joshua, As said elsewhere:

Joshua lied about what God said. Joshua was a homicidal psychopath. Moses picked him because he was the best choice of a rather pathetic lot. I explained this in detail here:

Scripturist - Joshua

So yes, in the eyes of a psychopath, the Torah can mean whatever the psychopath wants it to mean, whatever is convenient for him. Unsurprisingly this is the approach of most modern religion since modern culture is fundamentally psychopathic. But there is this thing called common sense. And I say that a common sense interpretation of the Torah means no shopping or doing chores on the Sabbath. Do you disagree? And can you name anything that Jesus did that violates a common sense interpretation of the Torah?

I personally consider the book of Joshua to be a masterpiece written intentionally on 2 levels. For those of lesser intelligence, it is probably best that they consider the founder of their country to be a hero regardless of what a monster he was. (This is the approach taken with Mao by the current communist party in China, praising him for the masses while the intelligent in China recognize that he was a monster.) For those of higher intelligence, the clues in the book of Joshua are so obvious as to what a monster Joshua was. For me, this is an example of why I love the Old Testament and its brilliant writing.

Of course there is little solid argument for either side in these kinds of questions, but I invite you to consider my arguments that I presented in my article that I linked to.

I am looking for feedback on something I wrote which is copied below. In particular, I would like to know if anything I wrote conflicts with Orthodox Christianity in any way.




Q. What is the Old Testament?

A. The Old Testament is God's ethics explained in a collection of many types of writing.

Q. Is this ethics required for salvation?

A. No, not in the Christian view. The Christian view is that salvation comes from faith in Christ.

Q. Then what is the point of the Old Testament for Christians?

A. Those with true faith in Christ should want to follow Christ which clearly includes trying to adhere to God's will and God's will includes the ethics of the Old Testament. Jesus prayed that "Thy will be done" (Thy referring to God). James said "faith without works is dead". Being ethical is referred to in Christianity as "works". Since faith should imply works, works are proof of faith.

Q. Is there any other benefit to following God's ethics?

A. Yes, the Old Testament repeatedly points out that a society that follows God's ethics will prosper but an unethical society will fail, for example Deuteronomy 28. In an ethical society, people can trust each other and this trust makes the society strong. It also makes life better for moral people.

Q. What about those Christians who claim to have faith without works?

A. Their faith is a lie.

Q. But millions of Protestant claim this.

A. Modern Protestants are the world's biggest liars and their faith is the ultimate lie. These modern Protestants all believe that they are like prophets and have a direct line to God who tells them what to do. Of course this is nonsense and what they interpret as God's word is nothing more than their own emotions telling them what to do. So in fact their faith is in their own emotions, not in Christ or God. Their worship is self-worship. They do this in God's name, violating the third of the Ten Commandments which says not to misuse God's name. How can I be sure of this? Jesus addressed modern Protestantism directly here:

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“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
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Matthew 7:15-23

What kind of fruit does modern Protestantism produce? Clearly bad fruit, every modern Protestant society today is a moral disgrace.

Q. But wasn't the Reformation all about overthrowing the unjustified works of the Catholic Church?

A. Yes, but these works weren't God's works. The Catholic Church also misused God's name to invent works in the name of God that aren't actually works of God. Martin Luther rejected these Catholic works but offered no substitute. John Calvin fixed this by correctly pointing out that true faith should produce true works as found in the ethics of the Bible. Though Luther and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on many theological points, this is one point on which they are in complete agreement.

Q. So then Protestantism was on the right path?

A. Yes, on this issue, early Protestantism was on the right path. This was true of all early Protestant sects influenced by Calvin and was especially true of the Puritans. And what were the fruits of this form of Protestantism? The Enlightenment, the British Empire, and the United States. Not bad, I think. Judged by these fruits, the early Protestants were doing something right.

Q. So where did Protestantism go wrong?

A. In America in the early 1800s in the Christian Second Great Awakening. This was time of public fairs full of snake oil salesmen, and religion was much the same. All kinds of religious claims were being sold to the public, but the one that took hold, the easy remedy for salvation, was that an emotional experience that one took to mean "accepting Christ" was the means for Salvation. In particular, a preacher named Charles Finney promoted this view. This was a clear rejection of John Calvin's views including his view of the relationship between faith and works. So Christian works died for Protestants. From this point on, Protestant societies went into moral decline.

Q. Didn't Christ come to replace the Law with Faith?

A. The whole concept of "the Law" is misunderstood. The Old Testament is not a law book, it is a book of ethics. The Old Testament contains laws that were specific to the Israelite society of that time. These laws are examples of applied ethics, but these laws were never meant to be eternal, not even for Jews. The part of the Old Testament that contains these laws is called the "Torah" in Hebrew, and Torah means "teaching", not "law". Of course some laws are so basic that they are in fact fundamental ethical principles, so they are eternal because ethical principles are eternal. The obvious example of this is the Ten Commandments.

Q. So then what is all this talk about "the Law" about?

A. In fact it is the Pharisees who made Judaism legalistic. They focused on law instead of ethics and then they added their own laws. Jesus particularly objected to the added laws of the Pharisees. Jesus defended the Old Testament in Matthew 5:17-20. In English translations, Jesus seems to be defending "the Law" but in Hebrew versions of Matthew that were found, Jesus says "the Torah", not "the Law", which means that Jesus is defending the teachings of the Old Testament. Paul attacked the Law which is not what the Old Testament is really about and is largely a construct of the Pharisees.

Q. How can one be sure that the Old Testament is really about ethics and not law?

A. Just read it. What do the prophets talk about? What does most of the Old Testament talk about? Is it law or is it ethics? Read it and decide for yourself.

Q. Aren't Jews the ones who follow the Old Testament?

A. Not at all. Most Jews today are Rabbinic Jews and Rabbinic Jews follow the Talmud, not the Old Testament. The Talmud is based on the Old Testament but twists it beyond recognition and explicitly rejects God's authority which is replaced by the authority of the rabbis (Talmud, Bava Metzia 59a-b). The Orthodox rabbis of today are the direct descendants of the Pharisees. It is Orthodox Jewish law that every Orthodox rabbi must be taught by another rabbi which connects in an unbroken chain back to the Pharisees from the time of Jesus.

Q. Should Rabbinic Judaism be hated for twisting God's word?

A. No. Catholicism and modern Protestantism twist God's word just as much. We should focus on improving ourselves instead of hating others for being misguided.

Q. Is all Judaism so misguided?

A. No, Karaite Judaism follows the Old Testament, but it is a small sect of Judaism.

Q. Who else follows the Old Testament?

A. The Puritans followed the ethical principles of the Old Testament better than Jews ever did. The ethical principles of God are available to anyone who wants to follow them. Unfortunately it seems that few major religions are interested in God's ethics today. That is why the modern world is such a mess.

Q. How should a Christian follow God's ethics today?

A. Read the Bible and follow it.

Q. But many parts of the Old Testament seem archaic. How should these parts be applied?

A. One needs to understand the historical context and use this to find the underlying principles which can be applied today. I admit that this isn't easy. So it is best to do this with the help of an Old Testament Bible study group.

Q. Where can one find a good Old Testament study group?

A. I offer an online Old Testament study group here:

Scripturist

I also plan to offer a local group in El Paso where I live. You can also ask your priest.

Q. Are you, the author, Christian?

A. No, my beliefs are similar to Karaite Judaism.

Q. Why should we listen to you if you aren't Christian?

A. Jesus considered the good Samaritan to be his neighbor. The Samaritans weren't just any group, like most pagans. The Samaritans worshipped the same God as the Jews and had the same Torah. So Jesus's point was that people who share the same God and same ethics, and prove this by actually helping each other, are neighbors even if they have different beliefs and different ethnicity. True neighbors should help each other, so I would like to help Christians understand the Old Testament.

​

 

[Belly Rumble]

Isaiah 56 and the Book of Revelation are the best passages in the Bible in my opinion that explain what Father is going to Judge you on when you die. Many Christians are not going to like what I am about to say. Father wants a few in every community to "Cry aloud, spare not, Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My People their transgression." Here we go, buckle up and leave the Devil at the Door! Remember, I am not Righteous and probably am the biggest sinner among you. The Last Book of the Bible is the one that Jesus wanted to make clear in once and for all how do you inherit Eternal Life. He gave these words to His Beloved Disciple John knowing that this would be the last Book in the entire Holy Bible. I am talking about the Book of Revelation. In this Book Jesus says that the "Only Ones" that get to spend Eternity with Father and Himself are called the: "Blessed Ones, Chosen Ones, & Faithful Ones" (Revelation 14:12-13, 17:14, 19:9, 20:6). In this last Book of the Bible we are told the only way to Eternal Life is to be in the group of people who: 1.) Keep the Commandments of God & 2.) have the faith and testimony of Jesus Christ. Now having said that, you may be wondering what does it mean to "keep the Commandments of God"?. Well hundreds of years before Jesus gave this revelation to John, Jesus "The Word" gave it to the prophet Isaiah. Jesus makes it very clear in Isaiah 56 what it means to keep the Commandments of God! In Isaiah 56:2 Jesus tells us who are the "Blessed Ones" just like He did in Revelation chapters 14, 17, 19, & 20. Jesus EVEN STOMPS HIS FEET WHILE HE TEACHES THIS JUST LIKE A TEACHER WOULD IF HE WAS TEACHING THE TEST. Jesus says in Isaiah 56:2 "the man who DOES THIS, and the son of man who LAYS HOLD ON IT" will receive the Salvation mentioned in verse 1. Jesus says throughout chapter 56 that THIS CHAPTER is for the Gentile Church!!! Jesus refers to the "church" here as the "sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord". Jesus also refers to the Gentile Church here as "Others besides those outcasts of Israel will be gathered to Father when Jesus Comes. Jesus capitalizes the "O" in others here not me. Jesus also says "Every Man who does THESE THINGS" are considered the Blessed Ones. Now, does Isaiah 56 lists of things you must do to be saved the same as the list in the Book of Revelation? YES!!! Here is how it is worded in Isaiah: 1.) The Blessed Ones choose what pleases Me. 2.) they love the "NAME OF THE LORD" and choose to be His Servants. {JESUS CHRIST}. 3.) Keep from defiling the SABBATH 4.) Keep from doing what is Evil. This list matches Revelation's list perfectly. The 10 Commandments found in Exodus 20 are the Commandments of God. Keep the SABBATH Holy is one of them and obviously one that really pleases Father. What is the true SABBATH? Do not let any one tell you it is anything other than Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Ok, how do we keep from defiling it? Now you need to turn 2 chapters forward and look at Isaiah 58. Jesus spells out how He wants you to act on the Sabbath 24 hour period. He makes it very clear in verse 3 not to have your business open during that 24 hour period!!! Unless you are feeding and clothing the poor at no charge!!! And, if you have employees helping you with that service they are not required to be there and you can not pay your employees. They have to want to come to serve the Lord. If you do this on the Sabbath, you must use it as a tool to teach the Truth about how to be saved. The Gospel of Jesus Christ while you are serving them for free. This is exactly why the "Western Nations chose to ignore the TRUE SABBATH. They do not want to close down between Friday nite to Saturday nite. Is this a requirement of Salvation? Think of it this way. There is only One that Jesus wants you to love and HONOR more than Himself or your Christian Brethren and that is Father. Father told you in Isaiah 56:4, rest of 56, and all of chapter 58 what pleases Him. Be careful not to defile the SABBATH, you may be the half of the Church that Jesus says "Depart from Me I never knew you." Remember, Father comes down to live with Jesus and Us after the 1,000 year Millennium is over. Jesus does not want a bunch of people hanging out beside Father for Eternity who did not try to please Him. Read it for yourselves.

 

[visionary]

Isaiah 56 and the Book of Revelation are the best passages in the Bible in my opinion that explain what Father is going to Judge you on when you die.

Judgment doesn't happen when you die. Judgment happen on the great Yom Kippur that Yeshua as our High Priest will be officiating.

Many Christians are not going to like what I am about to say. Father wants a few in every community to "Cry aloud, spare not, Lift up your voice like a trumpet; Tell My People their transgression."

Yes, that is what the Feast of Trumpets is all about, broadcasting the coming judgments that will be made in the heavenly court room. It is an appointed time

Here we go, buckle up and leave the Devil at the Door! Remember, I am not Righteous and probably am the biggest sinner among you.

Taking a position while clinging to the passage that talks about "no one is righteous" and think that it is the best position to take is not God's intent. Yeshua gave us the proof that living perfect in God's eyes are possible, and via Holy Spirit we can be in His Image.

The Last Book of the Bible is the one that Jesus wanted to make clear in once and for all how do you inherit Eternal Life.

Revelation is the revealing of what is going down in the end days and not about what you have to do to inherit Eternal life. Scripture has many good insights on how that process is done, especially in appoint times outline.

He gave these words to His Beloved Disciple John knowing that this would be the last Book in the entire Holy Bible. I am talking about the Book of Revelation. In this Book Jesus says that the "Only Ones" that get to spend Eternity with Father and Himself are called the: "Blessed Ones, Chosen Ones, & Faithful Ones" (Revelation 14:12-13, 17:14, 19:9, 20:6). In this last Book of the Bible we are told the only way to Eternal Life is to be in the group of people who: 1.) Keep the Commandments of God & 2.) have the faith and testimony of Jesus Christ. Now having said that, you may be wondering what does it mean to "keep the Commandments of God"?.

That is correct. But that is not the only place where these instructions are given. It is just the place in time, when it is crucial.

[Well hundreds of years before Jesus gave this revelation to John, Jesus "The Word" gave it to the prophet Isaiah. Jesus makes it very clear in Isaiah 56 what it means to keep the Commandments of God! In Isaiah 56:2 Jesus tells us who are the "Blessed Ones" just like He did in Revelation chapters 14, 17, 19, & 20. Jesus EVEN STOMPS HIS FEET WHILE HE TEACHES THIS JUST LIKE A TEACHER WOULD IF HE WAS TEACHING THE TEST. Jesus says in Isaiah 56:2 "the man who DOES THIS, and the son of man who LAYS HOLD ON IT" will receive the Salvation mentioned in verse 1. Jesus says throughout chapter 56 that THIS CHAPTER is for the Gentile Church!!! Jesus refers to the "church" here as the "sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord". Jesus also refers to the Gentile Church here as "Others besides those outcasts of Israel will be gathered to Father when Jesus Comes. Jesus capitalizes the "O" in others here not me. Jesus also says "Every Man who does THESE THINGS" are considered the Blessed Ones. Now, does Isaiah 56 lists of things you must do to be saved the same as the list in the Book of Revelation? YES!!! Here is how it is worded in Isaiah: 1.) The Blessed Ones choose what pleases Me. 2.) they love the "NAME OF THE LORD" and choose to be His Servants. {JESUS CHRIST}. 3.) Keep from defiling the SABBATH 4.) Keep from doing what is Evil. This list matches Revelation's list perfectly. The 10 Commandments found in Exodus 20 are the Commandments of God. Keep the SABBATH Holy is one of them and obviously one that really pleases Father. What is the true SABBATH? Do not let any one tell you it is anything other than Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Ok, how do we keep from defiling it? Now you need to turn 2 chapters forward and look at Isaiah 58. Jesus spells out how He wants you to act on the Sabbath 24 hour period. He makes it very clear in verse 3 not to have your business open during that 24 hour period!!!

You do realize that you are speaking to the choir here. Understand that Lev 23 is all about all the Sabbaths of the Lord... so it is more than just the weekly.

Unless you are feeding and clothing the poor at no charge!!! And, if you have employees helping you with that service they are not required to be there and you can not pay your employees. They have to want to come to serve the Lord. If you do this on the Sabbath, you must use it as a tool to teach the Truth about how to be saved. The Gospel of Jesus Christ while you are serving them for free. This is exactly why the "Western Nations chose to ignore the TRUE SABBATH. They do not want to close down between Friday nite to Saturday nite. Is this a requirement of Salvation? Think of it this way. There is only One that Jesus wants you to love and HONOR more than Himself or your Christian Brethren and that is Father. Father told you in Isaiah 56:4, rest of 56, and all of chapter 58 what pleases Him. Be careful not to defile the SABBATH, you may be the half of the Church that Jesus says "Depart from Me I never knew you." Remember, Father comes down to live with Jesus and Us after the 1,000 year Millennium is over. Jesus does not want a bunch of people hanging out beside Father for Eternity who did not try to please Him. Read it for yourselves.

Keep coming there is more to learn from the Lord.