The Old Testament for Christians

[Lukaris]

Joshua lied about what God said. Joshua was a homicidal psychopath. Moses picked him because he was the best choice of a rather pathetic lot. I explained this in detail here:

Scripturist - Joshua

So yes, in the eyes of a psychopath, the Torah can mean whatever the psychopath wants it to mean, whatever is convenient for him. Unsurprisingly this is the approach of most modern religion since modern culture is fundamentally psychopathic. But there is this thing called common sense. And I say that a common sense interpretation of the Torah means no shopping or doing chores on the Sabbath. Do you disagree? And can you name anything that Jesus did that violates a common sense interpretation of the Torah?

What is the major issue you have regarding the Sabbath? In a basic sense, we observe the Sabbath on Sunday in living the day but our call to worship God is through the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ on this day. On Saturday late afternoons/early evenings we have Vespers which is a sabbath service. Our weekly Sabbath actually begins the weekly Great Vespers at this time. Ideally (not by rigid compulsion since every personal situation is unique), we are to fast until partaking of the Eucharist on Sunday. Liturgically, Sunday actually begins at 6:00 PM secular time on Saturday. Our weekly Vespers service is a year round echo of the Great Vespers of Holy Saturday (the day after Good Friday & day before "Easter" which we call Pascha or our Passover). The significance of Holy Saturday is explained here: Holy Saturday: The Blessed Sabbath | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

We do not pick apart the Old Testament but accept its revelation & express it as fulfilled by Jesus Christ in our liturgical worship . We treat the New Testament book of Revelation in this way also. We are free to personally read & ponder the Bible , carefully cite scripture in discussion ,but we do not divisively & subjectively rile the order of faith.

 

[fschmidt]

What is the major issue you have regarding the Sabbath?

Please read the book that I linked to, which answers this question. And note that the author is Christian while I am not, so he is better qualified to give you an answer than I am. If you have any questions about the book, I can try to answer.

 

[fschmidt]

obviously not, you pick and choose what you believe about the OT and NT, and that is the opposite of how Orthodoxy approaches things.

I thought Orthodoxy means an Orthodox view of the core principles of Christianity, not a detailed specification of how to interpret every aspect of the Bible. But if I am wrong, if Orthodoxy entirely prohibits independent thought, then please let me know and I will move on.

 

[Lukaris]

I thought Orthodoxy means an Orthodox view of the core principles of Christianity, not a detailed specification of how to interpret every aspect of the Bible. But if I am wrong, if Orthodoxy entirely prohibits independent thought, then please let me know and I will move on.

The "core principles" you keep inquiring about have been stated. The overall summation of the old covenant is to love God & neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 19:16-24,Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-37, 1st Corinthians 13, see Romans 12 & 13 etc.), live this by the golden rule (Matthew 7:1-12, Luke 6:31-36 etc.), lived out in alms giving, prayer & fasting (Matthew 6:1-18). The 10 commandments or their core "principles" as stated by St. Paul in Romans 13:8-10, see also Leviticus 19, Deuteronomy 5 & 6 )

Traditional sin as laid out in Leviticus 18 is reaffirmed in Romans 1 but its severity is tempered by the Sermon on the MOunt (Matthew 5-7) chiefly by the commands to love God & neighbor.


I am sorry but i do not have time to read something by a non Orthodox author (no disrespect to the author or you) but I do not have home internet & have used my break & lunch time at work to try to answer yhour questions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I thought Orthodoxy means an Orthodox view of the core principles of Christianity, not a detailed specification of how to interpret every aspect of the Bible. But if I am wrong, if Orthodoxy entirely prohibits independent thought, then please let me know and I will move on.

no you can have independent thought, but Orthodoxy means correct glory. so our teaching and our dogmas are not negotiable. this does not mean you cannot have a mind of your own, it just means that what has been revealed as truth is, well, truth.

as some examples, folks like Met Hilarion Alfeyev, Fr Sergei Glagolev, Ron Moore, Fr Justin Matthews, Fr Peter Jon Gillquist, Avro Part, etc are all Orthodox Musicians, who in their own unique and creative ways, have made original music that still expresses the Truth of Orthodoxy.

 

[fschmidt]

no you can have independent thought, but Orthodoxy means correct glory. so our teaching and our dogmas are not negotiable.

So what have I written in this thread that conflicts with Orthodox teaching or dogmas?

 

[fschmidt]

I am sorry but i do not have time to read something by a non Orthodox author (no disrespect to the author or you) but I do not have home internet & have used my break & lunch time at work to try to answer yhour questions.

The irony here is that if you kept the Sabbath then you would have time to read it. The Sabbath provides time for religious reading. Modern culture is trapped in a vicious cycle where people are religiously ignorant because they don't keep the Sabbath and they don't keep the Sabbath because they are religiously ignorant.

Lacking home internet is irrelevant. I linked to page to order a paper copy, and I think it is even free.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So what have I written in this thread that conflicts with Orthodox teaching or dogmas?

your saying Joshua was a psychopath certainly does...

 

[fschmidt]

your saying Joshua was a psychopath certainly does...

Does this conflict with dogma or only teaching that isn't dogma? If the latter, isn't a teaching that isn't dogma merely church opinion in which case members of the church may hold a different opinion?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does this conflict with dogma or only teaching that isn't dogma? If the latter, isn't a teaching that isn't dogma merely church opinion in which case members of the church may hold a different opinion?

he is a saint of the Church who points us to Christ, not a psychopath.

 

[Lukaris]

The irony here is that if you kept the Sabbath then you would have time to read it. The Sabbath provides time for religious reading. Modern culture is trapped in a vicious cycle where people are religiously ignorant because they don't keep the Sabbath and they don't keep the Sabbath because they are religiously ignorant.

Lacking home internet is irrelevant. I linked to page to order a paper copy, and I think it is even free.

Well I am posting an excerpt from yours (or the teaching you adhere to) to interpret Joshua and it does not line up with Orthodoxy since it even says so:


[I]There remains one question; why did Moses select Joshua to lead Israel? I think the answer is simple, namely that Joshua proved to be the most effective warrior in Israel. Moses was both idealistic and practical at the same time. Moses knew that the most important thing was that Israel win the battles and take Israel. I assume that Moses also knew that Joshua was a psychopath, but Moses believed that the ends justify the means. Joshua would eventually die, so his tyranny would end and the Israelites would get Israel. This was the end that Moses wanted. [/I]

[I]It is worth looking at how the major religions view Joshua. "In rabbinic Jewish literature Joshua is regarded as a faithful, humble, deserving, wise man." "Among the early Church Fathers, Joshua is considered a type of Jesus Christ." And for Muslims "Joshua was exceptional among the Israelites for being one of the few faithful followers of God." All of which proves that today's religions have no understanding of the Bible, probably because human IQ has dropped significantly since biblical times. The interpretation of Joshua that I presented here is my own, from no other source than the Bible. But I think my interpretation clearly follows from the text. If anyone disagrees, feel free to post a response. [/I]


A person replied:


[I]This is why I read your posts, Franklin. No where else do I know where I could find a candid, honest interpretation of the Bible that doesn't draw its conclusions first before reading the text. That explains why mainstream religion is useless; they already "know" what the truth is before even looking at the text.[/I]

Scripturist - Joshua


I fail to see how the above statements can reconciled to the words of the Lord Christ:

Luke 24:44-45New King James Version (NKJV)

The Scriptures Opened
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

 

[fschmidt]

I fail to see how the above statements can reconciled to the words of the Lord Christ:

Luke 24:44-45New King James Version (NKJV)

The Scriptures Opened
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

And I fail to see the conflict. I don't think Jesus was speaking to any of the early church fathers here.

I can't think of 2 more different people than Jesus and Joshua.

 

[Lukaris]

And I fail to see the conflict. I don't think Jesus was speaking to any of the early church fathers here.

I can't think of 2 more different people than Jesus and Joshua.

Personally I admit to not being able to comprehend some of the harsh aspects of the Old Testament but I do not try to redefine them. I have tried to provide the Orthodox viewpoint in my earlier posts from a major saint of the church (St. Maximos the Confessor). You claim that there is a disconnect between what the Lord said & the early fathers & refer to Joshua as a "psychopath?" Joshua was clearly entrusted with the law:

Joshua 1:8New King James Version (NKJV)

8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.


An early church father St. Stephen testified of Joshua before his stoning which was approved of (& later repented of) by a later church father maned St. Paul.

Acts 7:44-46New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s True Tabernacle
44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob.


Acts 7:58-60New King James Version (NKJV)

58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can't think of 2 more different people than Jesus and Joshua.

that is because you think you know more than everyone who came before you. you say that the human IQ as dropped since Biblical times, and yet the folks of Biblical times and after hold him in high regard. do you have any solid evidence to post that backs up your claim?

 

[fschmidt]

Lukaris, God may have told Joshua to obey that Torah but that doesn't mean that Joshua did. I don't see any indication of trust. Your translation says "This Book of the Law shall not depart" but mine, HCSB, says "This book of instruction must not depart". My Hebrew isn't good enough to judge which is better. Your quotes from Acts don't say much about Joshua, nothing that contradicts my view. And I don't know what St. Stephen said, and whether whatever it is should be considered dogma not to be questioned.

Army Matt, there is no way to know for sure what ancient people thought. We can only interpret what they wrote and I interpret it differently than you do. But I can give another clearer example. Procopius was the historian who recorded the reign of emperor Justinian whom he seemed to praise in "Wars of Justinian" but whom we know he hated from "Secret History". I only read the latter and I don't know if there are hints against Justinian in the former.

I personally consider the book of Joshua to be a masterpiece written intentionally on 2 levels. For those of lesser intelligence, it is probably best that they consider the founder of their country to be a hero regardless of what a monster he was. (This is the approach taken with Mao by the current communist party in China, praising him for the masses while the intelligent in China recognize that he was a monster.) For those of higher intelligence, the clues in the book of Joshua are so obvious as to what a monster Joshua was. For me, this is an example of why I love the Old Testament and its brilliant writing.

Of course there is little solid argument for either side in these kinds of questions, but I invite you to consider my arguments that I presented in my article that I linked to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Army Matt, there is no way to know for sure what ancient people thought. We can only interpret what they wrote and I interpret it differently than you do. But I can give another clearer example. Procopius was the historian who recorded the reign of emperor Justinian whom he seemed to praise in "Wars of Justinian" but whom we know he hated from "Secret History". I only read the latter and I don't know if there are hints against Justinian in the former.

I personally consider the book of Joshua to be a masterpiece written intentionally on 2 levels. For those of lesser intelligence, it is probably best that they consider the founder of their country to be a hero regardless of what a monster he was. (This is the approach taken with Mao by the current communist party in China, praising him for the masses while the intelligent in China recognize that he was a monster.) For those of higher intelligence, the clues in the book of Joshua are so obvious as to what a monster Joshua was. For me, this is an example of why I love the Old Testament and its brilliant writing.

Of course there is little solid argument for either side in these kinds of questions, but I invite you to consider my arguments that I presented in my article that I linked to.

sorry, no need. the Revelation of the Church is why the book of Joshua was written. so that is the context to read the work. no amount of links you provide or personal opinion devoid of historic or Biblical substance means much, unless I want to think that you know more than the Abrahamic religions, all of whom you admittedly say hold Joshua in high regard.

it would be like me writing somewhere that I know more about your best friend than you do, because I read about him, although I admit I never actually know him. and while my writing is contrary to those that do know him, I will still assert that I am correct.

pretty absurd.

 

[Lukaris]

The Biblical record is consistent re Joshua and towards Rahab who let in the scouts to survey Jericho:

The case against Canaan is given in the book of Wisdom (in the Orthodox & Catholic canon): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=wisdom+12:+1-11&version=DRA

Joshua is praised in the book of Sirach: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=sirach+46:1-10&version=DRA


Joshua & Rahab are praised in the New Testament; in Hebrews: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11:30-31&version=NKJV and in James: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:24-26&version=NKJV


"The sun rises and the sun sets" says scripture (Ecclesiastes 1:5). Likewise the Logos appears sometimes as risen and sometimes as set, depending on the manner of life and spiritual status and essence or quality of those pursuing virtue and searching for divine knowledge. Blessed is he who is like Joshua (per Joshua 10:12-13) keeps the Sun of righteousness from setting in himself throughout the whole day of this present life, not allowing it to be blotted out by the dusk of sin & ignorance. IN this way he will truly be able to put to flight the cunning demons that rise up against him." St. Maximos the Confessor (Philokalia, vol. 2, 2nd c. on Theology #31).

 

[fschmidt]

no, according to the Law, there were many things that Christ did that violated the Sabbath if one merely looks at it in an external way. because Jewish history is full of people (Joshua and David to name two) who violated the Sabbath or the Law, if one only looks at it superficially.

So then waging war is in the spirit of the Sabbath according to you?

Orthodox Jews at least make up absurd legal loopholes to justify things like this, and then keep the basic commandment. Here is the Jewish excuse:

Ask the Rabbi, JewishAnswers.org » Joshua, Jericho, and the Sabbath

I confess I am probably wrong to present on this forum an interpretation of Joshua aimed at the intelligent. But I am not a salesman and I am not good at making up nonsense that appeals to the masses. I am very sorry about this deficiency of mine.

By the way, Lukaris, your New Testament quotes praise Rahab, not Joshua. There is nothing wrong with Rahab, she was an honest prostitute looking out for the best interest of her family.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So then waging war is in the spirit of the Sabbath according to you?

no, but since it was commanded by God, it kinda takes precedence. Christ said the Sabbath was made for man

I confess I am probably wrong to present on this forum an interpretation of Joshua aimed at the intelligent.

yeah, zero historic or Biblical evidence to back up a claim is aimed at the intelligent....

But I am not a salesman and I am not good at making up nonsense that appeals to the masses. I am very sorry about this deficiency of mine.

you are right, you are not a salesman and you are not good at making up nonsense to folks who know how to read. you are forgiven your deficiency.

Orthodox Jews at least make up absurd legal loopholes to justify things like this, and then keep the basic commandment. Here is the Jewish excuse:

only because they have a different understanding of what the Sabbath is.

 

[fschmidt]

Jesus said "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town." I think that applies to forums too, and I will follow this advice. I posted to the Messianic forum where I got a better reception.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7848312/