The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the same.

[reddogs]

The Old Covenant and New Covenant are not the same according to the actual language of the New Covenant -- Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:4-12

What is "The same" is the Gospel. It is the same in OT and NT - as we see in Gal 1:6-9 and Gal 3:8.

The New Covenant is the Gospel. The Old Covenant is not.

The Old Covenant is of the form "Obey and live".

Both covenants use the moral law of God as the standard of right and wrong... but the "agreement" (Covenant) is different.

But what of the intent and purpose of the "agreement". Obamacare may have got its differences, but it was basically the same like the old "agreement" of health care laws, to take care of the people.

 

[Gary K]

You are right to say that the Gospel (the same Gospel) operates from Adam to Revelation - and as Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel.

But the old covenant and new covenant are not the same.

The Old Covenant is "Obey and Live" there is no Gospel there. Gal 3 makes this clear

I would disagree with this assertion as you are leaving out some important textual evidence from the OT.

The new covenant was said to be based upon "better promises". Whose promises and why are they better? Because they are God's promises, not the promises of fallen human beings. But are those promises in the new convenant really new, or were they only new to the Jews of Jeremiah's time and Christ's time? What Jesus taught during His lifetime here wasn't new. His teachings only swept aside the rubbish of manmade teachings that had covered up what God had already taught the Isrealites/Jews in the OT. The Sermon on the Mount was nothing new. Those principles are found throughout the OT.

Let's look at the promises of God under the old covenant which are the same as the "new" covenant promises.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Who promised to sanctify people under the old covenant? Who promised to circumcise the hearts of His people so that they might live? You know, obey and live instead of disobey and die. The Isrealites missed these lessons and based their promises upon their own power. You know, the deficient power of the fallen human heart.

Were these things known during old covenant days?

Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.*n2
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

And here is even greater proof that this was known before new covenant times, i.e. before Jesus' day.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

If there was ever a just person on earth it was Jesus. If there was ever an honest person on earth it was Jesus. We know Jesus was both of these things because He never sinned. And here He is chiding Nicodemus because he is a teacher in Israel and hasn't a clue about the new birth. That means Nicodemus shoud have known these truths. It means they were taught in the OT or Jesus could not, as a just and honest man, have chided Nicodemus for his ignorance in this area.

The new covenant was simply the old time promises of God reiterated once again. It was the old truths given by God in the OT, and lost sight of early on by the Israelites and their descendents, being revealed and polished anew to draw attention to them as the solution for the failure the Israelites/Jews.

Here are the faulty promises:

Exodus 24:3 ¶And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.

If the Israelites and Jews had not relied upon their own power to obey, but had relied upon the promises of God their history and the world's history would be much different. They would not have failed to complete their mission to teach the world about God and His love.

The new covenant is still obey and live, disobey and die. Paul made that very clear.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Just like the Israelites of old if we do not allow God to sanctify us we will die for we will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[BobRyan]

I would disagree with this assertion as you are leaving out some important textual evidence from the OT.

The new covenant was said to be based upon "better promises".

In the Old testament.

Jer 31:31-33
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me,

That's Christ speaking in Jer 31..according to Hebrew 8.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me

Whose promises and why are they better? Because they are God's promises, not the promises of fallen human beings.

Christ said in Heb 8 and Jer 31 "not like the covenant I MADE"

It means they were taught in the OT or Jesus could not, as a just and honest man, have chided Nicodemus for his ignorance in this area.

true.

The new covenant was simply the old time promises of God reiterated once again.

No the Old Covenant - first made with Adam "Obey and live" -- perfect obedience means no condemnation by the Law of God.

But Adam failed.

So now the "agreement" the "Covenant" is the New Covenant from Adam to this very day -- that is the Gospel covenant preached toe Abraham Gal 3;8 just as it is preached to us to day Heb 4:1.

 

[BobRyan]

But what of the intent and purpose of the "agreement". Obamacare may have got its differences, but it was basically the same like the old "agreement" of health care laws, to take care of the people.

The old covenant agreement - first made with Adam was not to save him from sin - it was to preserve him in sinless eternal life through perfect obedience.

But Adam having failed that - needed a "different agreement" one that is the Jer 31 new covenant that offers forgiveness of sins to save the lost sinner and the miracle of a new heart and mind in harmony with the Law of God.

 

[reddogs]

The entire Old Covenant had to be abolished and a new one created that would be profitable to a people full of faults. This new covenant would be founded upon a law that was written in their hearts rather than on tables of stone. Through the indwelling Spirit of Messiah, our hearts and minds would be changed. As we abide in the living Torah (Messiah) the Torah would be written on our hearts. As the mind of Messiah formed in us, a mind that was obedient to Torah, Torah would be written in our minds.

This is why Paul wrote the following in 2 Cor 3:9-11:

“For if the ministration of condemnation [O.C.] be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness [N.C.] exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious [O.C.] , much more that which remaineth is glorious [N.C.].”
​

This new covenant would also include:

• a better sacrifice in the blood of Messiah Yeshua vs. animal blood (Heb 9:23)
• a better mediator in Messiah vs. Moses (Heb 8:6; 9:15, 24; 12:24; Gal 3:19 speaking of Moses).
• a better ministration in the spirit vs. the letter (2 Cor 3:6)
• a better High Priest in Yeshua vs. Aaron (Heb 7:24-28; 8:1-6)
• a better priesthood after the order of Melkizedek vs. Levi (Hebrews 7)
• better promises based on the eternal rather than the temporal (Heb 7:24-25; 8:5; 9:1 vs. 9:11; see also all the promises mentioned above under the subheading, “Yahweh’s Part”.
• a better tabernacle made without hands (Heb 8:1-6; 9:11, 24)

This covenant is truly a new thing that YHWH has created, totally unlike the Old Covenant. Everything is new and better. The only thing that is not new is Torah. However, we relate to it in a whole new way.

It was always there from the beginning at Creation, but the people forgot and so it had to be written in stone. But then Christ came and again put it in their hearts.

 

[reddogs]

In the Old testament.

Jer 31:31-33
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me,

That's Christ speaking in Jer 31..according to Hebrew 8.

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me



Christ said in Heb 8 and Jer 31 "not like the covenant I MADE"



true.



No the Old Covenant - first made with Adam "Obey and live" -- perfect obedience means no condemnation by the Law of God.

But Adam failed.

So now the "agreement" the "Covenant" is the New Covenant from Adam to this very day -- that is the Gospel covenant preached toe Abraham Gal 3;8 just as it is preached to us to day Heb 4:1.

I liked the following from this weeks lesson..
The New and Old Covenants, as they are often distinguished, contain the same components.


1. Sanctification: “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jer. 31:33,NKJV; compare Heb. 8:10).

2. Reconciliation: “I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (Jer. 31:33, NKJV; Heb. 8:10).

3. Mission: “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD’, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them” (Jer. 31:34, NKJV; Heb. 8:11).

4. Justification: “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jer. 31:34, NKJV; Heb. 8:12).

 

[BobRyan]

I liked the following from this weeks lesson..
The New and Old Covenants, as they are often distinguished, contain the same components.


1. Sanctification: “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jer. 31:33,NKJV; compare Heb. 8:10).

2. Reconciliation: “I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (Jer. 31:33, NKJV; Heb. 8:10).

3. Mission: “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD’, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them” (Jer. 31:34, NKJV; Heb. 8:11).

4. Justification: “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jer. 31:34, NKJV; Heb. 8:12).

Sadly the lesson got that point wrong.
Jer 31:31-34 explicitly says it is the NEW Covenant.
Heb 8:10-12 is the NEW Covenant - only because it is a direct quote of Jer 31:31-34 verbatim.

They "should" have said that the "NEW Covenant is the SAME in the OT as it is in the NT". Clifford may be getting an email since this is the second time someone has pointed this out to me this week. (Which is fine since it won't be the first time I was somewhat of an irritant over lunch with him )