The oceans are rising!

[ThinkForYourself]

I'm suggesting the numbers might not be accurate because it is well known that Florida is losing its' beaches already, not to rising sea levels, but to coastal erosion...

You completely missed the point.

It has nothing to do with losing beaches, except those beaches will be submerged.

If you can, go down to a beach, and stand on the edge of the water. Then imagine the water rising up to eye level. Then turn 360 degrees. Any part of the beach that is below your eye level would be submerged, and lost as a beach.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You guys let somebody take over this thread and make it about Obama. Please don't make this about Obama.

For some people Obama is their favorite topic: "It is raining today. Obama. I need to go to work (Obama). What is for breakfast? (Obama). I think (Obama) I will have eggs(Obama) and (Obama) toast (Obama)." Can't they think of anything else?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Accepting climate change would mean changing habits, such as exchanging SUVs for smaller cars.

That just is not true. One can accept climate change and drive whatever one likes. Have you seen what Al Gore drives?

Those who can't fit their fat butts into anything smaller than an SUV don't want this to happen.

IMO That is a rather mean spirited, intolerant and bigoted statement.

 

[grasping the after wind]

For some people Obama is their favorite topic: "It is raining today. Obama. I need to go to work (Obama). What is for breakfast? (Obama). I think (Obama) I will have eggs(Obama) and (Obama) toast (Obama)." Can't they think of anything else?

Well he did promise to lower the sea levels. When you raise people's expectations that high there are bound to be those that believe you have such super powers. I wanted to address you previous post to me but I am having trouble quoting it. All I am getting is a blank screen. I will continue to attempt it.

 

[JustOneWay]

Well he did promise to lower the sea levels. When you raise people's expectations that high there are bound to be those that believe you have such super powers. I wanted to address you previous post to me but I am having trouble quoting it. All I am getting is a blank screen. I will continue to attempt it.

He never promised to lower the sea levels

 

[doubtingmerle]

Well he did promise to lower the sea levels. When you raise people's expectations that high there are bound to be those that believe you have such super powers.

Actually what he said was:

The journey will be difficult. The road will be long. I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. But I also face it with limitless faith in the capacity of the American people. Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth. This was the moment - this was the time - when we came together to remake this great nation so that it may always reflect our very best selves, and our highest ideals. Thank you, God Bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America​

Nothing there at all about super powers to lower oceans.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Still a blank screen. I will improvise.
Quotes in this post all from doubtingmerle

Did you not see my screen name--doubtingmerle? I call myself a doubter. Wen I say that somebody denies or doubts, that is not an insult. It is a compliment if the person has good reason to doubt.

So I ask why you doubt. I do not get upset that, like me, you doubt some things. I only ask if you have a reason for those doubts.

Well you call yourself a doubter but not a denier why is that? Because perhaps you do not find the concept of denial the same as the concept of doubt?

Are you not aware that scientists have presented that evidence? See, for instance:

Climate Change: Evidence and Causes » Climate Change at the National Academies

Is that what you were looking for?

AS I skimmed through the pamphlet you linked to I did not find concrete physical evidence of a cause and effect relationship. It does cite computer model data as a reason to assume a cause and effect relationship. If I am missing something perhaps you could be so kind as to quote the exact parts that show the concrete physical evidence I am searching for. When one is unimpressed by computer modelling, as i am, then it hardly suffices in this case or in the case of predictions of future disasters. I do however, not categorically rule out that the computer models may be correct I am sure they often are correct especially when used for much simpler situations with many less variables involved. I do not deny, I merely doubt that predictions of climate catastrophe by computer modeling can be relied upon in guiding policy for economic and taxation purposes.. I also doubt that there is any economic or taxation policy that will effect climate change .

Excuse me, but you are aware that nobody says this, yes? So why make up something that nobody says?

Excuse me, but I have been told that exact thing by people more than once. When making a categorical statement It is never a good idea to trust that every one understands the limits of computer modelling. So why did you state something to be a fact when there was no possible way you know what every being on the planet has said?

"Computer models" was only one of the 4 points in the OP. The issue is that multiple computer models all show consistently that carbon dioxide is the problem. That is important.

If multiple computer models show that a large hurricane is heading toward your location on the beach, you would not bring up the straw man that the forecasters should not claim their forecasts are infallible, would you?

If multiple computer models show a hurricane is coming, usually they do not agree where the hurricane will go but let us pretend they do, I can move to a location that the models do not show it is coming and hope the models are correct. The same can be done for climate change if you like. Of course there is evidence that weather is somewhat , but not all that much, predictable using computer models. There is no good evidence to show how reliable computer models are at predicting climate changes. Since our weather predicting computer models often come to different conclusions and each of them turn out to be correct sometimes but not all the time, the fact that the computer models that you mention agree would seem to me to be less of a reason to be sure of them. It would seem that there is a possibility that they all agree because the people doing the programming are all relying upon the same basic assumptions. In other words the models agree because the programmers agree. Saying this is not accusing anyone of a conspiracy it is simply a matter of the consensus of opinion . If over 90 percent of people believe something is the case they usually will agree on the parameters within which that thing is the case and if only those in the 90 percent that agree are doing any of this modelling then it is somewhat safe to assume they are somewhat of the same mind and somewhat likely to model in a somewhat similar way using somewhat similar assumptions.

You have a point there. Even if humans respond in an overwhelming way, it is still likely that eventually all the fossil fuels that can economically be burnt will be burnt, and that most of the rain forests will eventually be cut down. Global warming is based on the total amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, not the rate at which we add it. So if we burn it all eventually but at a slower rate, then all we would be doing is delaying the inevitable, with slightly less environmental damage. Is that worth doing? That is an important question to ask.

But ignoring the question is not, in my opinion, a good idea.

It is indeed possible that the carbon in the atmosphere contributes to global warming but I am not aware that most scientist claim that global warming is based on the total amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere alone. I beleive that there are several other factors that scientist would say play a part in it even if they think that carbon dioxide is the driving force. Additionally, the burning of fossil fuels is only one source of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. If we were to immediately refrain from burning even one more fossil fuel today there would still be other sources of carbon dioxide contributing to the atmospheric levels of the stuff.

I do not ignore the question, I simply do not think that there is any way to answer it with any reliablity and I am quite certain that the majority of "solutions" that are being proposed are unreasonable and will prove to be most likely ineffective. Additionally I suspect that there are some elements among the political and the corporate interests that see this as an opportunity to attempt to sell something to the public that cannot be sold as is but might be sold if they can convince people that by buying this product or government policy it would help save the world from global catastrophe even if only in a small way. It is possible that both the corporate and political con men being con men and global warming posing a real problem can be true at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive concepts.

 

[DaisyDay]

He never promised to lower the sea levels

It's hard to resist the bait.

Has this graphic been posted yet?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Actually what he said was:

The journey will be difficult. The road will be long. I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. But I also face it with limitless faith in the capacity of the American people. Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth. This was the moment - this was the time - when we came together to remake this great nation so that it may always reflect our very best selves, and our highest ideals. Thank you, God Bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America​

Nothing there at all about super powers to lower oceans.

Nothing there that doesn't scream narcissist either. Humility not one of his strong points. I face this challenge with profound humility? If humility means arrogance I suppose. After all we know how even is, is a relative term open to interpretation to Presidential politicians. I do not know if he was self deluded enough to actually believe that because he was elected to political office we BEGAN to provide care and jobs and the planet begins to heals but being the cause of all those things beginning sure sounds like super powers to me. Sorry btw he only promised to slow the rise of the oceans not lower their levels so i was mistaken in that.

 

[DaisyDay]

Nothing there that doesn't scream narcissist either.

You have a different definition of "narcissist" than most people if that is your conclusion.

 

[Aldebaran]

Nothing there that doesn't scream narcissist either. Humility not one of his strong points. I face this challenge with profound humility? If humility means arrogance I suppose. After all we know how even is, is a relative term open to interpretation to Presidential politicians. I do not know if he was self deluded enough to actually believe that because he was elected to political office we BEGAN to provide care and jobs and the planet begins to heals but being the cause of all those things beginning sure sounds like super powers to me. Sorry btw he only promised to slow the rise of the oceans not lower their levels so i was mistaken in that.

Tell me about it! The whole part of the speech just make a person want to puke after reading it. That's how it makes me feel anyway. It's so full of politician-speak that it's almost transparent in its phoniness. Hey, maybe that's what he meant when he said his administration would be the most transparent.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I do not understand why people deny climate change. We have known for a century that increased levels of carbon dioxide cause planets to warm. We have shown conclusively that burning fossil fuels has raised the carbon dioxide levels of our atmosphere (from 280 ppm to 400 ppm). Based on that we would predict that temperatures would rise, and sure enough, they have. Attempts to attribute this temperature rise to natural causes have repeatedly found those causes inadequate, while the effects expected from increases in carbon dioxide closely match what we observe.

Deniers will make a big deal that the temperature has been largely on a plateau for the last decade, while ignoring the fact that this plateau is very high--9 of the 10 hottest years on record have occurred in the last decade. Yes, the global temperature has changed little this decade--while still making 2014 the hottest year on record--but the total heat content of the earth has continued to rise rapidly. Where is that heat going? Much of it is melting the polar ice caps. A recent study in Antarctica indicates the ice is melting at an alarming rate, which could cause much of the ice cover to destabilize and slowly flow into the sea. See, for instance, https://news.vice.com/article/the-w...at-a-much-higher-rate-than-previously-thought. This could lead to disastrous sea level rises.

Climate change, global warming, and rising sea levels could have a devastating effect in the lives of our grandchildren. I don't write this for me. I don't expect to be here for the worst of the effects. But for the sake of those we love, shouldn't we all be concerned?

The world's major science organizations have issued strong warnings about the dangers of climate change. So why ignore the science, and persist in denial of climate change caused by burning fossil fuels?

I guess we should start planning on moving coastal cities? The reasons of why isn't as important as to the fact that they are rising period. They will rise. We cannot stop it.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I do not know if he was self deluded enough to actually believe that because he was elected to political office we BEGAN to provide care and jobs and the planet begins to heals but being the cause of all those things beginning sure sounds like super powers to me.

Do I need a bigger font? Let's try again. What he said was:

I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. But I also face it with limitless faith in the capacity of the American people. Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal;​

If necessary, there is a bigger font where that one came from.

He was not saying he would do these things. He was saying that he had faith in Americans, and if we as Americans decide to do these things, we Americans can.

Saying that Americans can do things if they set their mind to it as not the same thing as claiming super powers, or that changes will occur just because one is in charge.

 

[Aldebaran]

Do I need a bigger font? Let's try again. What he said was:

I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. But I also face it with limitless faith in the capacity of the American people. Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal;​

If necessary, there is a bigger font where that one came from.

He was not saying he would do these things. He was saying that he had faith in Americans, and if we as Americans decide to do these things, we Americans can.

Saying that Americans can do things if they set their mind to it as not the same thing as claiming super powers, or that changes will occur just because one is in charge.

But if "Americans" won't vote to do it, he'll do it on his own. Executive priviledge, you know. That's the way it turned out.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The whole part of the speech just make a person want to puke after reading it. That's how it makes me feel anyway.

Why do you want to puke when you hear politicians talk about the greatness of the American people and what we can do if we set our minds to it?

Yes, he used a little rhetorical license in his buttering up of the American people. He sure was flattering us. It is great to see people express such great faith in Americans, even if they used a little rhetorical license in express their admiration of Americans.

I am sorry that hearing Obama speak about the great things Americans can do if they set their minds to it makes you puke.

 

[brewmama]

This for instance? Is that what you are referring to?

Carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More like this.

http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Story-C...59605&sr=8-4&keywords=geology,+climate+change

http://www.amazon.com/Global-Warmin...59605&sr=8-2&keywords=geology,+climate+change

 

[brewmama]

Do I need a bigger font? Let's try again. What he said was:

I face this challenge with profound humility, and knowledge of my own limitations. But I also face it with limitless faith in the capacity of the American people. Because if we are willing to work for it, and fight for it, and believe in it, then I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal;​

If necessary, there is a bigger font where that one came from.

He was not saying he would do these things. He was saying that he had faith in Americans, and if we as Americans decide to do these things, we Americans can.

Saying that Americans can do things if they set their mind to it as not the same thing as claiming super powers, or that changes will occur just because one is in charge.

Yeah. He's saying it because HE became President.

 

[DaisyDay]

Yeah. He's saying it because HE became President.

That's reading into it.

 

[amanuensis63]

Step back and get a little perspective on planetary history.

Indeed! It because we know about the planet's history that we have even more data to show that the current climate changes are likely largely due to humanity!

The way we know how much an effect has on a given system is to understand the other effects when it is not around. Because we know how the earth has changed throughout it's history before humans were around we can tell that most of the factors driving warming today are mostly due to human activity!

 

[amanuensis63]

From the link:

"Historically, there's been a lot of uncertainty in measurements of Antarctic melting because the continent is so remote and difficult to study. That makes it tough to predict future ice loss, which is necessary to help coastal communities around the world prepare for sea level rise. Michael Oppenheimer, a Princeton University geoscientist who was not involved in the study, said that the new research provides important clues to how Antarctica will change in the future"

That isn't science. That's pseudoscience

You are wrong. This is exactly how science is done. They EXPLORE and INVESTIGATE and study.

These people are braving the Drake Crossing year after year to study in a very harsh and remote environment and you are sitting safely in your home spreading untruths about them????

Shame.