The Non Christian Views of Paul?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Further more here we see that everyone is needed in the ministry... And we Christians are like the body of Christ and we are all needed and need each other. St. Paul gave us great insight indeed in the Christian message. He knew that not everyone had the same gifts as he also admited to his "weaknesses".... as we all have them. Here he gives a sense of what he considered the Chrisitan Church to be...having solidarity in faith by be in communion with one another.

Greetings. That is easier said than done as you will have different sects/denominations of Christianity coming here and all giving their "spirit led" views on the Bible.

I am "Solo Scriptura", so I only use the Bible as my source of Knowledge of YHWH and His Christ Jesus so my view of Paul and Jesus will probably differ from other Christians and hence I would think more confusion for non-Christians.......Just my humble thoughts.......


http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7213672

 

[Druweid]

My point Dru is that they know very well who Paul was from the Bible. But if you do not "accept" it and try to rationalize every single bit of it...then you do end up in "slander" since like Secundulus mentioned Paul was in the company of other Apostles and communicated with others...Why then single him out? oh...yeah...it becomes an easier target does he? Bottomline Paul lived a life of evangelization and preached the kerygma of Christ, and also died a martyr to his call. That in itself makes him a legitemate follower of Christ. Period.

Well, I would say that Paul is singled out since Christianity as a whole is based on his writings. While I would certainly agree that people all-too-often present their disbeliefs in a slanderous fashion (a practice we all know is forbidden on this forum), certainly there must be room for more civilized discourse. You might still consider it slanderous, but it would be, at least, civilized. And as I said before, to address the disbelief of non-Christians, you would certainly benefit from knowing the source and/or nature of that disbelief.

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

 

[Druweid]

And what are your reservation about Paul? If I may ask...

Did I mention that I don't discuss such things in public? Actually, as I mentioned before, only with those whom I know very well.

Kindest Regards,
-- Dru

 

[Druweid]

Greetings. The Muslims appear to have done that with their Koran as according to their Prophet and Book, the Koran erases all the errors and contradictions found in the Jewish/Christian Bible...

I'm no expert on the Koran, but of course, I'll take your word for it.

Without Paul the rest of the NT/NC simply becomes a book for the OC Jews who still await on a Messiah that will never come to them except thru the Spirit and the Faith of their Messiah/Savior, Jesus.......

Definitely agreed.

-- Druweid

 

[Philothei]

Well, I would say that Paul is singled out since Christianity as a whole is based on his writings. While I would certainly agree that people all-too-often present their disbeliefs in a slanderous fashion (a practice we all know is forbidden on this forum), certainly there must be room for more civilized discourse. You might still consider it slanderous, but it would be, at least, civilized. And as I said before, to address the disbelief of non-Christians, you would certainly benefit from knowing the source and/or nature of that disbelief.

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

How civilized it is telling someone....we "know" Christianity is this.... opposing your view completely and bashing it? It would better to ask is that what you believe? As to give a chance for us to answer it and then make the appropriate comments. I did not see this happening in this case... But nevertheless it is valuable to repeat it here... And no I am not talking about you Druweid

 

[Druweid]

How civilized it is telling someone....we "know" Christianity is this.... opposing your view completely and bashing it?

Whole-heartedly, I couldn't agree with you more, such a practice is contemptible, and those who do it are not interested in honest, civilized debate.

It would better to ask is that what you believe? As to give a chance for us to answer it and then make the appropriate comments.

It might be better, but then tends to elicit more general concepts and ideas. Those who seem to want to antagonize or just flaunt their disbelief tend to be uncooperative in narrowing the focus of a discussion for better clarity. It's so much easier to defend a claim when it's kept in vague generalities.

And no I am not talking about you Druweid

Oh, perish the thought! I would never have thought that of you. We may have our heated discussions, but I never forget you are a fine and decent person.

Blessings,
-- Druweid

 

[ahmid]

Now I would like to learn what non-christian people who have some knowledge about Christianitythink about St.Paul.(since many of the non-christians of this board were in Christianity some while or more)

Was there a poll taken on your claim that many non-christians here were once christian? I have not seen many non-christians respond to this...perhaps they have converted to christianity.

Do you think he was just the 13th disciple and there is a co-existence with his teaching and the theaching of Jesus (according to Bible) as christians say.Or was he another man?

There are some both Isamic and non-Islamic opinions about him being a self prophet of Christianity who added his own philosophy to the religon.

I take it the islamic opinions concern you the most.

Without considering the gospels...would any man jump on a cause the manner in which the historical Paul did with no ulterior motive? Did he gain any monetary compensation as muslim clerics and even pastors do today? Money is usually a strong driving force and Paul clearly mentions that a pastor is worthy of support but Paul himself claimed to give everything away to the poor. All he ever had was his cloak and walking shoes.

Consider the beatings Paul endured; why would any muslim endure beatings? Of course Paul died believing in his vision of Jesus and not just on blind faith.
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Even as Paul thru Jesus Christ convinced idol worshiping infidels in the first century; likewise do I move about Breaking the Sword of Islam. For the true G*d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. I will love G*d and my neighbor. By Jesus Christ, all evil is bound from hindering. --- Ahmid Truth

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[Druweid]

Without considering the gospels...would any man jump on a cause the manner in which the historical Paul did with no ulterior motive?

If Paul had an ulterior motive, how would we know? He certainly would not reveal such a thing. His companions, if they knew, would likely be "in on it," and therefore not divulge anything. Such theories are just that, theories, and likely always will be. Unless some new information comes to light, no argument could possibly disprove or sustain this within reason.

Did he gain any monetary compensation as muslim clerics and even pastors do today? Money is usually a strong driving force and Paul clearly mentions that a pastor is worthy of support but Paul himself claimed to give everything away to the poor. All he ever had was his cloak and walking shoes.

MMmmmm, long ago I knew of a priest who spoke of his vow of poverty on numerous occasions. And yet, as long as I knew him, he drove a Caddilac never more than 2 years old. 'Course, it didn't belong to him, per se', it belonged to the church. But please, not to question Paul's honesty, just that credibility would be enhanced if we had more than just his word on which to judge.


Respectfully,
-- Druweid

 

[Philothei]

Theologically speaking where do we see Paul having an ulterior motive? If his "life" cannot prove that he had integrity...then we have to look into his teachings...I think.

I cannot find anything that would contradict let us say for the sake of argument the Gospel of John. Since the Gospel of John was primarily the "gospel" par exellence in theology.

The continuity of the Christian message in Pauline writings is evident. I can pin point where Christ's words about equality, justice, and love one another are all presented and emphasized in Paul. At the same time Pauline epistles are "advisory" in nature and not per ce theological treatises...nevertheless they reflect the Christian message. What I am trying to say is that people should not understand reading Paul that he is writing "dogma" rather he is writting and giving out Christian advice based on what he knows and was taught about the Chrisitan message.

At least that is my perception of Paul.

And Druweid we can say that about all kinds of minister in any religion. I do not think that because someone is Christian automatically he starts reflecting Christ. For "many are called but few are chosen", God calls everyone and it is up to us to answer that call... not up to Him...We are born with free will and God respects that. If they do not follow Him and are Christians in name only how is the Christian message at fault here? Does it teach hypocricy? NO, as we know Christ was agaisnt the hypoctites right from the beginning....

 

[Arthra]

I think Paul is a truly interesting character and very pivotal for the developement of Christianity but I thought I would ask what people think it was meant when he wrote:

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Just thought I'd ask...

- Art

 

[Philothei]

Paul was struggling like all of humans (ah...like we are any different?) with the passions of the flesh... His "thorn" on his side was temptation of the flesh that can be anything... We are all reminded of our "bodily passions" so that we are humbled to know that we can never reach God and try to make ourselves so high in pride that we are blinded to God and his all wisdom... Paul was humbled by his "passion" and his struggle to uproot it. It expresses IMO the same struggle we see at the Gesthemane Garden by Christ... The difference is that Paul falls while the God-man Christ does not as he is God and sinless. I believe that Paul's humanity and fall is a cage for us as to know that whatever is not possible for men is possible to God.. And despite the fact we fall ....we still get up and continue our struggle as God forgives out of his everlasting grace and mercy.....

 

[Arthra]

I don't think anyone knows for sure what Paul's "thorn" was.. but there's been speculation about it.

- Art

 

[Philothei]

Excatly I agree with you Arthra.

 

[Arthra]

Some of the speculation:

"A physical ailment, however, seems more likely here, though the lack of details forbid a proper diagnosis. Physical infirmities that seem to fit the situation are malaria, Malta fever, epilepsy, convulsive attacks, and chronic ophthalmia."

Source:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/thorn.cfm