The Non Christian Views of Paul?

[TheD]

You can only believe that if you think Paul lived to be over 100 years old. That seems like a stretch.

He's fictional, he can live for however long you desire.

Luke begins with the conception of Christ, not with a fully grown man.

Actually, the first to present JC is "Matthew". It doesn't really matter anyways. The reference is of the Transfiguration, Christ was fully grown then, no?

Please provide some reference for believing that the Apostles were raiding anything. Nothing in either biblical or secular history indicates anything of this sort.

I said their representatives, not the apostles themselves. This covers several competing Christian sects. They happened to harass the Jews though, that''s certainly biblical.

 

[Chesterton]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Generally, with the rise of Catholicism though they get free deification once there work has been done in scarring civilized advancement.[/FONT]

Deification? I thought they only earned sainthood? Gee, maybe I should look into scarring civilized advancement - if only I can figure out how to benefit from it several centuries after I've been tortured to death.

 

[TheD]

Deification? I thought they only earned sainthood? Gee, maybe I should look into scarring civilized advancement - if only I can figure out how to benefit from it several centuries after I've been tortured to death.

The prayers too 'saints' speaks too them like deities. I thought deification would be a proper word for it. Specifically, Judaism brought less harm then Christianity when it came to living in foreign territory. Reap
what you've sown, of course with an 'eternal spirit' you don't have to worry about that tortured corpse.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Thank you brother Secundulus for setting the record straight through the Church records, I have been gone today...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Um, I'm sorry, but no. You are exploiting the convenience of an alternate translation.

Look at the original Greek (transliterated via Strong's Concordance):

Acts 9:7 - "akouō men phōnē" (hearing - truly - a voice)
Acts 22:9 - "akouō ou phōnē" (hearing - not - a voice)

Now granted, the word "phōnē" may be translated as "sound," but since we're talking about the same word, used in similar context, on two different occasions, it is still a contradiction. The same goes for the word "akouō."

Regards,
-- Druweid

. . . In the original Greek, however, there is no real contradiction between these two statements. Greek makes a distinction between hearing a sound as a noise (in which case the verb "to hear" takes the genitive case) and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message (in which case it takes the accusative). Therefore, as we put the two statements together, we find that Paul's companions heard the Voice as a sound (somewhat like the crowd who heard the sound of the Father talking to the Son in John 12:28, but perceived it only as thunder); but they did not (like Paul) hear the message that it articulated. Paul alone heard it intelligibly (Acts 9:4 says Paul ekousen phonen--accusative case); though he, of course, perceived it also as a startling sound at first (Acts 22:7: "I fell to the ground and heard a voice [ekousa phones] saying to me," NASB). But in neither account is it stated that his companions ever heard that Voice in the accusative case.
-- Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, by Gleason L. Archer, p. 382.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/533

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

. . . In the original Greek, however, there is no real contradiction between these two statements. Greek makes a distinction between hearing a sound as a noise (in which case the verb "to hear" takes the genitive case) and hearing a voice as a thought-conveying message (in which case it takes the accusative). Therefore, as we put the two statements together, we find that Paul's companions heard the Voice as a sound (somewhat like the crowd who heard the sound of the Father talking to the Son in John 12:28, but perceived it only as thunder); but they did not (like Paul) hear the message that it articulated. Paul alone heard it intelligibly (Acts 9:4 says Paul ekousen phonen--accusative case); though he, of course, perceived it also as a startling sound at first (Acts 22:7: "I fell to the ground and heard a voice [ekousa phones] saying to me," NASB). But in neither account is it stated that his companions ever heard that Voice in the accusative case.
-- Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, by Gleason L. Archer, p. 382.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/533

Seems we may need to have greek lessons.

I put this up as an example in post 35

#5456.....voice/sound..last time used in Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.......

Young) Acts 9:7 And the men who are journeying with him stood speechless, hearing indeed the voice/sound/fwnhV <5456> but seeing no one,

Textus Rec.) Acts 9:7 oi de andreV oi sunodeuonteV autw eisthkeisan enneoi akouonteV men thV fwnhV mhdena de qewrounteV

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 21:3 and I hear a voice/fwnhV <5456> , great, out of the heaven saying "behold! the booth of the God with the men, and He shall be boothing with them and they peoples of Him shall be. And He, the God shall be with them [*a God to them]".

5456. phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose), saying or language:--noise, sound, voice.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Philothei speaks Greek, natively... Let's call her. I go to a Greek Church but it is not my language.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Philothei speaks Greek, natively... Let's call her. I go to a Greek Church but it is not my language.

Bring up verses that you have questions on...I can bring up the greek fairly quickly and I can also look up exact word forms of them and where they are used......

 

[ahmid]

Bring up verses that you have questions on...I can bring up the greek fairly quickly and I can also look up exact word forms of them and where they are used......

Brother, I did not understand your rendering on acts 9:7 but I did understand Bushmaster's.

-------------------------------------------------
Even as Paul thru Jesus Christ convinced idol worshiping infidels in the first century; likewise do I move about Breaking the Sword of Islam. For the true G*d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. I will love G*d and my neighbor. By Jesus Christ, all evil is bound from hindering. --- Ahmid Truth

G*d thru Jesus Christ bless Zakaria Botros - today he is reaching up to 50 million Muslims in the middle east through televised evangelism via satellite. Reportedly hundreds a week are turning to Christ and abandoning Islam... Hallelujah. 3lotus.com
Help Stop Islam! ...over 12,000 selfish attacks since 9/11 ... Islam Killshttp://christianforums.com/showthre...d.php?p=49020070////////////////lpost49020070

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I'd differentiate between the heavily fictionalized Paul of "Acts", the historical Paul who wrote some of the epistles that are attributed to him, and the anonymous author(s) who wrote epistles in Paul's name that eventually made it into the Biblical canon.

"Acts"-Paul is mostly a myth, albeit one that is at least partially based on historical realities.

Thitch. ^^ At least pretty much.

I also think that the author of the genuine Pauline epistles (Rom, Gal, 1+2 Cor ...) and their protagonist are the same person and that those genuine Pauline epistles are our earliest, most fertile and reliable sources on (early) Christianity.

One ought to be wary though about reading those epistles and their contents in the light of later stories and tales. For instance, Paul's conversion experience is pretty much as it is described in Gal, though I'd be careful (to say the least) about all those colorful details from Acts. Likewise, his "seeing" of Christ (1 Cor 15) should not be conflated with the type of "seeing" that is ascribed to the apostles in the Gospel tales.


ETA: Oh yeah, I almost forget ... The poll. I did not vote.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thitch. ^^ At least pretty much.

I also think that the author of the genuine Pauline epistles (Rom, Gal, 1+2 Cor ...) and their protagonist are the same person and that those genuine Pauline epistles are our earliest, most fertile and reliable sources on (early) Christianity.

One ought to be wary though about reading those epistles and their contents in the light of later stories and tales. For instance, Paul's conversion experience is pretty much as it is described in Gal, though I'd be careful (to say the least) about all those colorful details from Acts. Likewise, his "seeing" of Christ (1 Cor 15) should not be conflated with the type of "seeing" that is ascribed to the apostles in the Gospel tales.


ETA: Oh yeah, I almost forget ... The poll. I did not vote.

Greetings. Don't forget the Visions of JESUS and the future Consummation the Apostle John witnessed in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.

Ezekiel and Revelation go together like "white on rice". Of course the Jews and Muslims debunct the Christian NT/NC so they will not read Revelation....Thoughts?

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit she is lifting me between the Land and the Heavens, and she is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate the inner the one facing north-ward which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously.

Reve 17:3 And He carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Greetings. Don't forget the Visions of JESUS and the future Consummation the Apostle John witnessed in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.

Ezekiel and Revelation go together like "white on rice". Of course the Jews and Muslims debunct the Christian NT/NC so they will not read Revelation....Thoughts?

I think that whoever wrote the book Revelation knew the Scriptures darn well. (Likewise for the Gospels etc.)

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit she is lifting me between the Land and the Heavens, and she is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate the inner the one facing north-ward which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously.

Reve 17:3 And He carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think that whoever wrote the book Revelation knew the Scriptures darn well. (Likewise for the Gospels etc.)

Yepperz....JESUS seemed to have known them quite well also as they Testified about Him

John 5:39 "Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them Life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them into ages of ages is ascending, and not they are having Rest of day and of night [Hebrews 4:3]

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Both [Mohammed and Joseph Smith] contradict Paul. <snip>

Now, let me repeat:

Are you actually telling me that you discard these two based solely on how much they disagree with your sectarian of choice??? And you do so based on a scriptural canon that was cherry picked by Paul's followers in subsequent centuries?
I'm sorry, but that degree of gullibility is downright dysfunctional.

It's as if a Scientologist maintained that the Raelists must be false prophets, based on the fact that they don't know about thetans or auditing - and then points to Dianetics in order to substantiate his point.

It's kinda embarrassing, really. Fremdschämen for Beginners.

I mean, hey, does that mean that if it weren't for Paul and the Bible, you'd readily accept any claim, no matter how absurd? UFOs, hobgoblins, angelic visitations?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Yepperz....JESUS seemed to have known them quite well also as they Testified about Him

JESUS? You mean the one that stars in the Gospels? lol

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

JESUS? You mean the one that stars in the Gospels? lol

Howdy. Well the Jews were/are expecting Someone to come to them......I would say it was JESUS or my Faith is in Vain....

Miykah 5:3 Therefore He shall give up them till season/time one trevailing she brings forth.
And remnant of brothers of him, they shall return on sons of Me, Yisra'el.
4 And he stands and he Shepherds/07462 ra`ah in strength of YHWH, in majesty of name of YHWH, Elohiym of him. [Matthew 1:21/Reve 12:2,5]

Reve 12:2 and having in belly, and she is crying-out, trevailing, and being tormented to be bringing forth/tekein <5088> (5629)
5 And she brought forth a Son, male, who is being about to be Shepherding/poimainein <4165> (5721) all the nations in rod/staff, iron. And is caught away the child of her toward the God, and toward the throne of Him.

 

[ahmid]

I think that whoever wrote the book Revelation knew the Scriptures darn well. (Likewise for the Gospels etc.)

Perhaps it was G*d who revealed his truths to the writers, from the prophets to John and Paul. Did you think of that? Perhaps there is a connection...did you think of that? Christian apologetics does a near job of explaining things but a belief in Jesus opens the 'floodgates of heaven' so that things hidden become clear.

'Even as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts.'

-------------------------------------------------
Even as Paul thru Jesus Christ convinced idol worshiping infidels in the first century; likewise do I move about Breaking the Sword of Islam. For the true G*d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. I will love G*d and my neighbor. By Jesus Christ, all evil is bound from hindering. --- Ahmid Truth

G*d thru Jesus Christ bless Zakaria Botros - today he is reaching up to 50 million Muslims in the middle east through televised evangelism via satellite. Reportedly hundreds a week are turning to Christ and abandoning Islam... Hallelujah. 3lotus.com
Help Stop Islam! ...over 12,000 selfish attacks since 9/11 ... Islam Killshttp://christianforums.com/showthre...d.php?p=49020070////////////////lpost49020070

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

All it takes to write the book of Revelation is a copy of the Septuagint, a proper grounding in Greek philosophy, a gift for metaphor and some pen, ink and parchment.
Certainly not a mean feat, but nowhere near supernatural.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All it takes to write the book of Revelation is a copy of the Septuagint, a proper grounding in Greek philosophy, a gift for metaphor and some pen, ink and parchment.
Certainly not a mean feat, but nowhere near supernatural.

Greetings. Revelation is a book mainly written to the OC Hebrew Israelites/Jews so they should be the one reading that book.
The question is, is JESUS the one prophecied to come to the Israelites/Judeans in the OT?

[ISA] Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, those, which they-shall-take-fast/hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/Men, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of a-Man/0376 'iysh, a-Judean/Y@huwdiy, to-say 'We-are-going with-Thee that We-hear Elohiym with-Thee'. [Mark 6:56]

Mark 6:56 And the-where ever He into-journeyed into villages, the cities, the fields/hamlets, in the market-places, they place the ones being sick and they beside-called Him that if-even the hang-foot of the garment of Him they should be touching, and as manysoever as touch of Him/it, were Saved.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Greetings. Revelation is a book mainly written to the OC Hebrew Israelites/Jews so they should be the ones reading that book.

Actually, the most widespread interpretation of that book would see it as a metaphorical message to Christians suffering under Roman persecution. But there are certainly other ways of reading it, too.

The question is, is JESUS the one prophecied to come to the Israelites/Judeans in the OT?

Well, the authors of the gospels certainly tried to make it look that way. But again, is that so very difficult when you can basically write the gospel with a copy of the "prophecies" right next to you? (ACTUAL prophecies, not Christian revisionist readings of OT passages that were in no way connected to the messianic prophecies.)

Why do you think do two gospels bother to trace Jesus's lineage to the house of David (although they can barely agree on a the names or the number of generations in that genealogy)? Why do you think do they bother to explain why and how a guy from NAZARETH was supposedly born in Bethlehem? Why does one of them bother to explain that the family went to Egypt?
And why are the intervening years missing? Because they are irrelevant to the prophecies. It all started out with what was known of Jesus's ministry; the whole infancy stuff was quite obviously tagged on to "fulfill" a prophecy or another. I don't even think that it was deliberate fraud. It went more along the lines of: "Jesus WAS the messiah. The messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. So Jesus WAS born in Bethlehem, even if we know that his family lived in Nazareth."