The Non Christian Views of Paul?

[Jane_the_Bane]

Both of them contradict Paul. <snip>

Now, wait a second...

Are you actually telling me that you discard these two based solely on how much they disagree with your sectarian of choice??? And you do so based on a scriptural canon that was cherry picked by Paul's followers in subsequent centuries?
I'm sorry, but that degree of gullibility is downright dysfunctional.

It's as if a Scientologist maintained that the Raelists must be false prophets, based on the fact that they don't know about thetans or auditing - and then points to Dianetics in order to substantiate his point.

It's kinda embarrassing, really. Fremdschämen for Beginners.

I mean, hey, does that mean that if it weren't for Paul and the Bible, you'd readily accept any claim, no matter how absurd? UFOs, hobgoblins, angelic visitations?

 

[peaceful soul]

Once there was a thread about The Non Christian Views of Jesus.Now I would like to learn what non-christian people who have some knowledge about Christianitythink about St.Paul.(since many of the non-christians of this board were in Christianity some while or more)

Do you think he was just the 13th disciple and there is a co-existence with his teaching and the theaching of Jesus (according to Bible) as christians say.Or was he another man?

There are some both Isamic and non-Islamic opinions about him being a self prophet of Christianity who added his own philosophy to the religon.

Before you begin, you should consider why didn't the other Apostles/Disciples refute his teachings on Jesus. Why don't you see them condemning his teachings? Why don't they discount Him as an Apostle? Answer that first before you continue.

 

[huldah153]

Paul was fabricated by Marcion, the works of Josephus supplied Roman Catholic novelists with additional material to NT "scripture", common practice undoubtedly.

That the Pauline Epistles were tampered with is even admitted by orthodox theologians; but to the best of my knowledge, the only "scholar" who supports the idea that Paul himself was invented by Marcion, is a pseudohistorian named Acharya S.

 

[TheD]

to the best of my knowledge, the only "scholar" who supports the idea that Paul himself was invented by
Marcion, is a pseudohistorian named Acharya S.

Marcion is the most likely candidate, that's all that's being presented on my part.

Marcion created what would become the NT Paul as a messenger for his own ideas,
he almost certainly used biographical material from his own life, particularly the power struggle
he waged with the collective in Rome. Marcion, like "Paul", alone knew the truth, a mystery made
manifest to him by revelation. As a shipping magnate from Sinope (a Black Sea port, a hundred
miles north of Galatia) Marcion enjoyed financial independence and was able to travel extensively.
At one point he even financed the church in Rome before being excommunicated and returning to
the east. He would have been familiar with the sea lanes and attendant dangers that figure so prominently in the Pauline story. To give his theology added "authority" it had to be back projected into an
earlier "apostolic age". He may have chosen the name Paul (meaning "small" or "humble") as reflective
of his own position. When Catholicism commandeered Marcion's creation, the novelists in Rome
would undoubtedly have used the works of Josephus, the all-purpose source books of the Christians,
for additional material. here they found not a Paul but a Saul, an Herodian aristocrat of unsavoury character. This material became the core for the preamble to Paul's story, his "life in Judaism". And
the life of Josephus himself certainly was plundered: episodes in the Jewish historian's biography
resonate just too closely with the Pauline story, particularly the shipwreck on the way to Rome.
Josephus was not just an historian. Before the war, he had been appointed by the high priest Ananias
as governor in Galilee, with a brief that meant suppressing ("persecuting") radical movements. One
of the bandit groups he had to deal with in and around Tiberias was led by a bandit chief called...Jesus.
So Jesus the son of Sapphias [chief magistrate of Tiberias], one of those whom we have already mentioned as the leader of a seditious tumult of mariners and poor people, prevented us, and
took with him certain Galileans, and set the entire palace on fire ... Jesus and his party slew all
the Greeks that were inhabitants of Tiberias, and as many others as were their enemies before
the war began.&#8211;Josephus , Life 12.

 

[Secundulus]

Ignatius wrote this before Marcion. Thus your Marcionite theory fails.

And ye are, as http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vi.html?highlight=paul#highlightPaul wrote to you, “one body and one spirit, because ye have also been called in one hope of the faith. Since also “there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.” Such, then, are ye, having been taught by such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most faithful.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vi.html?highlight=paul#highlight

Ignatius - a.d. 30–107
Marcion - a.d. 110-160

 

[Chesterton]

What of Joseph Smith or Muhammed?

Also consider Smith and Mohammed were nobodies (criminals even?) who stood to make a name for themselves, whereas Paul was the opposite. He was a prestigious Pharisee who had much to lose in Jewish society. Also the former two took on the role of “prophet”, they desired and accepted the title. When people mistakenly wanted to regard Paul too highly, he admonished them not to, and pointed to Christ. And the only title he gave himself was “slave and bond-servant”.

 

[TheD]

Doesn't make "Paul" less of a fabricated apostle though.

 

[Secundulus]

Doesn't make "Paul" less of a fabricated apostle though.

You have stated that Marcion fabricated him. Follow through with your hypothesis in the face of the evidence I have posted. Do not give up so easily.

 

[TheD]

I'm not competing with anyone Secundulus.
I don't use biblical figures for chronology, if that's something you would like me to justify my hypothesis
with. I don't have scholarship as a profession, there are many plausible outcomes but I'm not going to suggest Paul actually was a living, breathing, apostle, since no unbiblical evidence has been given of his remains (if any existed).
I have some parallel's if that will satisfy you, otherwise my contribution is of no worth here.

 

[TheD]

I have no disagreement on any A.D historian being presented in the making of "Paul".
My conclusion may as well result in agreement with the assumption of Ignatius, instead of Marcion.
I have not read any of their writings, but at the same time I don't have doubt that Marcion's literature
was used by the Catholic church in the forming of the NT epistles.
As previously quoted, the evidence would be within Marcion's own biography, the rest being supplied
in adding too the scriptures by church literates. It doesn't upset any of my notions, in fact it gives
me more reason to do further reading on Igantius' writings as well.

1st parallel: But when John [of Gichala] was come to the city of Tiberias, he persuaded the men to revolt from their fidelity to me...A messenger had come to me from Silas, whom I had made governor of Tiberias...Upon the receipt of this letter of Silas, I took two hundred men along with me, and traveled all night...Having dismissed the guards I had about me, excepting one, and ten armed men that were with him, I attempted to make a speech to the multitude...But before I had spoken...to provide for my own safety, and escape my enemies there...[I was] carried upon the back of one Herod of Tiberias, and guided by him down to the lake, where I seized a ship, and got into it, and escaped my enemies unexpectedly, and came to Tarichese.&#8211;Josephus, Life 17
But Paul thought not good to take John with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia ..And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.&#8211;Acts 15.38,40
And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas.&#8211;Acts 16.25,29

2nd parallel: At this time it was that two great men, who were under the jurisdiction of king Agrippa, came to me out of the region of Trachonius, bringing their horses and their arms, and carrying with them their money also. And when the Jews would force them to be circumcised, if they would stay among them, I would not permit them to have any force put upon them, but said to them, Every one ought to worship God according to his own inclinations, and not to be constrained by force; and that these men, who had fled to us for protection, ought not to be so treated as to repent of their coming hither.&#8211;Josephus, Life 23
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. And after they had held their peace, James answered...Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.&#8211;Acts 15.1,19

3rd: So the men of power perceiving that the sedition was too hard for them to subdue, and that the danger which would arise from the Romans would come upon them first of all, endeavoured to save themselves, and sent ambassadors, some to Florus, the chief of which was Simon the son of Ananias; and others to Agrippa, among whom the most eminent were Saul, and Antipas, and Costobarus, who were of the king's kindred; and they desired of them both that they would come with an army to the city, and cut off the seditious before it should be too hard to be subdued.&#8211;WAR, 2, 17.
Saul...made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
(Acts 8.3)
Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself: I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews. (Acts 26.1,2)

4th: AFTER this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink; Costobarus, therefore, and Saul, who were brethren, together with Philip, the son of Jacimus, who was the commander of king Agrippa's forces, ran away from the city, and went to Cestius.&#8211;WAR, 2, 20.1
And he spake boldly...and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Which when the
brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. (Acts 9.29,30)

Well that's evidence obviously for how they manipulated Josephus' writings. Saul/"Paul" just serves
as mythical representation of Marcion's account of his own existence, if I could back up this assertion
with something I'd gladly show it too you if it were available.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Non Christian Views of Paul?

Does this mean Christians can't post/vote

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5858522&page=13
Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have surround me, a crowd of evil doers have compass me as lion my hands and feet.

Phil 3:2 Beware of-the Dogs, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision!
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship, boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Revelation 22:15 Without the Dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a Falsehood .

 

[Druweid]

Acts 9:7 "...heard the sound..." NIV
Acts 22:9 "...companions..did not understand the voice of him.." NIV

So they heard a sound but did not understand it, as Paul did. This phenomenon is repeated on various occasions as when Jesus hears "I have glorified it and will glorify it again." (john 12:28) Only a few understood the noise while others only heard thunder.

Um, I'm sorry, but no. You are exploiting the convenience of an alternate translation.

Look at the original Greek (transliterated via Strong's Concordance):

Acts 9:7 - "akou&#333; men ph&#333;n&#275;" (hearing - truly - a voice)
Acts 22:9 - "akou&#333; ou ph&#333;n&#275;" (hearing - not - a voice)

Now granted, the word "ph&#333;n&#275;" may be translated as "sound," but since we're talking about the same word, used in similar context, on two different occasions, it is still a contradiction. The same goes for the word "akou&#333;."

Regards,
-- Druweid

 

[Secundulus]

I have no disagreement on any A.D historian being presented in the making of "Paul".
My conclusion may as well result in agreement with the assumption of Ignatius, instead of Marcion.
I have not read any of their writings, but at the same time I don't have doubt that Marcion's literature
was used by the Catholic church in the forming of the NT epistles.
As previously quoted, the evidence would be within Marcion's own biography, the rest being supplied
in adding too the scriptures by church literates. It doesn't upset any of my notions, in fact it gives
me more reason to do further reading on Igantius' writings as well.

1st parallel: But when John [of Gichala] was come to the city of Tiberias, he persuaded the men to revolt from their fidelity to me...A messenger had come to me from Silas, whom I had made governor of Tiberias...Upon the receipt of this letter of Silas, I took two hundred men along with me, and traveled all night...Having dismissed the guards I had about me, excepting one, and ten armed men that were with him, I attempted to make a speech to the multitude...But before I had spoken...to provide for my own safety, and escape my enemies there...[I was] carried upon the back of one Herod of Tiberias, and guided by him down to the lake, where I seized a ship, and got into it, and escaped my enemies unexpectedly, and came to Tarichese.–Josephus, Life 17
But Paul thought not good to take John with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia ..And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.–Acts 15.38,40
And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed. And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas.–Acts 16.25,29

2nd parallel: At this time it was that two great men, who were under the jurisdiction of king Agrippa, came to me out of the region of Trachonius, bringing their horses and their arms, and carrying with them their money also. And when the Jews would force them to be circumcised, if they would stay among them, I would not permit them to have any force put upon them, but said to them, Every one ought to worship God according to his own inclinations, and not to be constrained by force; and that these men, who had fled to us for protection, ought not to be so treated as to repent of their coming hither.–Josephus, Life 23
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. And after they had held their peace, James answered...Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God.–Acts 15.1,19

3rd: So the men of power perceiving that the sedition was too hard for them to subdue, and that the danger which would arise from the Romans would come upon them first of all, endeavoured to save themselves, and sent ambassadors, some to Florus, the chief of which was Simon the son of Ananias; and others to Agrippa, among whom the most eminent were Saul, and Antipas, and Costobarus, who were of the king's kindred; and they desired of them both that they would come with an army to the city, and cut off the seditious before it should be too hard to be subdued.–WAR, 2, 17.
Saul...made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
(Acts 8.3)
Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself: I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews. (Acts 26.1,2)

4th: AFTER this calamity had befallen Cestius, many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city, as from a ship when it was going to sink; Costobarus, therefore, and Saul, who were brethren, together with Philip, the son of Jacimus, who was the commander of king Agrippa's forces, ran away from the city, and went to Cestius.–WAR, 2, 20.1
And he spake boldly...and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. Which when the
brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. (Acts 9.29,30)

Well that's evidence obviously for how they manipulated Josephus' writings. Saul/"Paul" just serves
as mythical representation of Marcion's account of his own existence, if I could back up this assertion
with something I'd gladly show it too you if it were available.

Saul was not an uncommon name. it was the name of Israel's first King. Consider if you may be drawing parallels on the name of Saul where no such parallel really exists.

Yes, I have also read Josephus' book in its entirety.

Marcion is famous, and heretical, simply because he accepted Paul's writings and rejected the OT in its entirety. He was not alone in accepting the writings of Paul at that time though.

See this table http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Um, I'm sorry, but no. You are exploiting the convenience of an alternate translation.

Look at the original Greek (transliterated via Strong's Concordance):

Acts 9:7 - "akou&#333; men ph&#333;n&#275;" (hearing - truly - a voice)
Acts 22:9 - "akou&#333; ou ph&#333;n&#275;" (hearing - not - a voice)

Now granted, the word "ph&#333;n&#275;" may be translated as "sound," but since we're talking about the same word, used in similar context, on two different occasions, it is still a contradiction. The same goes for the word "akou&#333;."
Regards,
-- Druweid

#5456.....voice/sound..last time used in Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.......

Young) Acts 9:7 And the men who are journeying with him stood speechless, hearing indeed the voice/sound/fwnhV <5456> but seeing no one,

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 21:3 and I hear a voice/fwnhV <5456> , great, out of the heaven saying "behold! the booth of the God with the men, and He shall be boothing with them and they peoples of Him shall be. And He, the God shall be with them [*a God to them]".

5456. phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose), saying or language:--noise, sound, voice.

 

[TheD]

Saul was not an uncommon name. it was the name of Israel's first King. Consider if you may be drawing parallels on the name of Saul where no such parallel really exists.

Yes, I have also read Josephus' book in its entirety.

Marcion is famous, and heretical, simply because he accepted Paul's writings and rejected the OT in its entirety. He was not alone in accepting the writings of Paul at that time though.

See this table http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml.

I'm aware Saul was the name of Israel's first king.
It's easy to accept you're own writing, Marcion of course would do such a thing.
The fact that he wasn't alone adds more into the development of the fictional character "Paul",
with all it's Anti-Jewish NT encouragement. Which is one of the few reasons I have trouble accepting
Jesus at all. Thanks for sharing that canon table, it seems to be have been based
on independent vote or something of that nature.

 

[Secundulus]

The fact that he wasn't alone adds more into the development of the fictional character "Paul",
with all it's Anti-Jewish NT encouragement. Which is one of the few reasons I have trouble accepting
Jesus at all.

I don't think that Paul was anti-Jewish as we would understand the word - against Jews. He was anti-Judaism. He was against the established religion that rejected Jesus as the Christ. I think it is unfair to characterize Paul as Anti-Jewish when he, and all the other apostles, were Jews themselves.

At the time that Paul wrote, Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism, not something separate in itself.
--------------------------
I accidently erased what I wrote before.

Compare Paul to the Gospels and if you can find significant differences between them and Paul, that are not accounted for in Acts, your case is strengthened.

I only mention Acts because it was not written by Paul, it was written by Luke, and because it is accepted that it was written before the death of Paul around 64 AD.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Whe don't Muslims accept Paul as an Apostle?

1 corin 11:26 For as often ever ye may be eating the bread, this, and the drink-cup ye may be drinking, the death of the Lord ye are according-messaging until which ever He may be coming [Revelation 19:11]

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.

 

[TheD]

As for Paul, examine his writings and determine what he taught that was different from the four Gospels. If you can find any significant differences that are not accounted for in Acts, then your case is strengthened.

I only mention Acts because it was not written by Paul, Luke was the author, and because it is accepted that it was written prior to the death
of Paul in around 64 AD.

I'm a bit confused by you're request, specifically: "any significant differences that are not accounted for
in Acts." Is this statement referring to the agreement (or lack thereof) between the chapters selected?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sulpicius Quirinius (Greek 'Cyrenius' in Luke), Governor of Syria, conducted a taxation census of Judaea during 6-7 AD after Rome had deposed Archelaus and had annexed this minor province.The prefect appointed to Judaea was Coponius. Quirinius' census based on property not a head count did not extend to Galilee, a client kingdom which remained under the tetrarch Herod Antipas.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] And no census would have required heavily pregnant maidens to make a 100 mile journey south![/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Oops! Now, Acts 5.33 purports to tell the story of the disciples in the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30s AD. It calls as a 'witness' an archetypal Pharisee priest called 'Gamaliel' who advises the Sanhedrin to release the imprisoned disciples 'just in case they were doing God's work.' As part of his dubious argument he cites the fate of two previous Messiahs Judas the Galilean and Theudas. It just so happens Josephus (Ant. 20.5) also mentions both rebels the Judas who raised a tax revolt under Coponius (about 6 AD) and 'a certain magician Theudas' whose head was removed by the procurator Cuspius Fadus. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately for the Biblical chronology Fadus was appointed after the death of Herod Agrippa in 44 AD 'Gamaliel' is recalling an event which hasn't yet happened! Almost a century later closer to his own time and no doubt influencing the author of Luke a census was taken
in Egypt. The 'Kata Oikian' census of 104 AD required temporary city dwellers to return to their regular domiciles. This census did not extend beyond [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the borders of Egypt. Luke's story is a pick'n'mix of a dimly remembered history, used as a literary device to give his hero the 'prophesied' birth [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in Bethlehem.[/FONT]

Marcion claimed to have known "Paul", 2nd best ticket into gathering sheep I guess. He seems to have provided proto-Luke epistles, of course this would be behind his own fictional apostle for Jesus and
would easily be seen as separate chapters in the 'scripture'. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Marcion&#8217;s Christ descends fully grown
from heaven (as had a number of Greek gods), and appears suddenly in a synagogue in Capernaum.
In other respects his text [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]follows closely the wording which would eventually be found in Luke.

[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Either way I look at it from my source, the author is still the same [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](with a little
help from bishop of Rome and other church services).[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Marcion = Luke, Act/"Paul".[/FONT] Perhaps Ignatius stayed
in the political bunch for defending The Church.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You have to consider, the apostles died when their representatives [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]stopped raiding pagan areas and installing their personal churches for [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus. Generally, with the rise of Catholicism though they get free deification once there work has been done in scarring civilized advancement.

Is this the same Ignatius? [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), wrote:[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We should always be disposed to believe that
which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
There is only one Physician, Jesus Christ.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]&#8211;St Ignatius (quoted by S. Argus, p305)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[Secundulus]

I'm a bit confused by you're request, specifically: "any significant differences that are not accounted for in Acts." Is this statement
referring to the agreement (or lack thereof) between the chapters
selected?

Marcion claimed to have known "Paul", 2nd best ticket into gathering

You can only believe that if you think Paul lived to be over 100 years old. That seems like a stretch.

sheep I guess. He seems to have provided proto-Luke epistles, of course this would be behind his own fictional apostle for Jesus and would easily

be seen as separate chapters in the 'scripture'. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Marcion&#8217;s Christ descends fully grown from heaven (as had a number of Greek gods), and appears suddenly in a synagogue in Capernaum. In other respects his text [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]follows closely the wording which would eventually be found in Luke. [/FONT]

Luke begins with the conception of Christ, not with a fully grown man.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

You have to consider, the apostles died when their representatives[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]stopped raiding pagan areas and installing their personal churches for [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus. Generally, with the rise of Catholicism though they get free deification once there work has been done in scarring civilized advancement.[/FONT]

Please provide some reference for believing that the Apostles were raiding anything. Nothing in either biblical or secular history indicates anything of this sort.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luke begins with the conception of Christ, not with a fully grown man

Greetings. We are actually do a verse by verse study on Luke over here........

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7289245&page=45
The GT Commentary on Luke [verse by verse]