The Non Christian Views of Paul?

[anatolian]

Once there was a thread about The Non Christian Views of Jesus.Now I would like to learn what non-christian people who have some knowledge about Christianitythink about St.Paul.(since many of the non-christians of this board were in Christianity some while or more)

Do you think he was just the 13th disciple and there is a co-existence with his teaching and the theaching of Jesus (according to Bible) as christians say.Or was he another man?

There are some both Isamic and non-Islamic opinions about him being a self prophet of Christianity who added his own philosophy to the religon.

 

[Rasta]

I don't think any of thoes are accurate. I think Paul was a pagan who heard of Christianity from Christians, not Jesus. I think that Paul was persuaded into belief then wrote his gospel based on his understanding.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I don't think any of thoes are accurate. I think Paul was a pagan who heard of Christianity from Christians, not Jesus. I think that Paul was persuaded into belief then wrote his gospel based on his understanding.

Your ability to create the thought is commendable, now do you know the historical truth of Paul?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I'd differentiate between the heavily fictionalized Paul of "Acts", the historical Paul who wrote some of the epistles that are attributed to him, and the anonymous author(s) who wrote epistles in Paul's name that eventually made it into the Biblical canon.

"Acts"-Paul is mostly a myth, albeit one that is at least partially based on historical realities.

Epistle-Paul is the founder of Christianity as we know it, freely combining motifs from Hellenic mystery cults with originally Jewish elements, and thus creating the immensely popular, eclectic hodgepodge that eventually came to dominate empires.
His [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-and-bull story about his "vision" is about as credible as Joseph Smith's discovery of the golden plates, or Mohammed's penning the words of God as transmitted by the Archangel Gabriel.

 

[Isambard]

I'd differentiate between the heavily fictionalized Paul of "Acts", the historical Paul who wrote some of the epistles that are attributed to him, and the anonymous author(s) who wrote epistles in Paul's name that eventually made it into the Biblical canon.

"Acts"-Paul is mostly a myth, albeit one that is at least partially based on historical realities.

Epistle-Paul is the founder of Christianity as we know it, freely combining motifs from Hellenic mystery cults with originally Jewish elements, and thus creating the immensely popular, eclectic hodgepodge that eventually came to dominate empires.
His [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-and-bull story about his "vision" is about as credible as Joseph Smith's discovery of the golden plates, or Mohammed's penning the words of God as transmitted by the Archangel Gabriel.

^ Agreed. Though Im personally torn between Paul intentionally inventing Christianity, or it being a result of him having the galloping crazies.

 

[Arthra]

I don't know I think Saul-Paul had a conversion experience on the way to Damascus so I tend to believe the account as given.. He experienced a blindness for awhile afterwards which is interesting.. I wonder if that was a physical manifestation which was related somehow...

Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing; 3 so they led him by the hand and brought him to Damascus. 9 For three days he was unable to see, and he neither ate nor drank.

There have been other people like that who persecuted others and experienced a conversion.

Recent studies have been done that explain that the same parts of the brain are involved in love and hate..

See:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ions-intimately-linked-in-brain-14023776.html

There is a possibility Saul had an epileptic seizure causing his fall from the horse and seeing a bright light and hearing a voice:

On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice

"Simple partial seizures usually only last for a short time. While this type of seizure is going on, the person might smell something peculiar. They may have a strange feeling or see flashing lights. Sometimes there will be some movement in the arms and hands. The person may also hear voices, which they do not understand."

Source:

http://www.essortment.com/all/seizurestypess_rvqd.htm

No one knows for sure but it is a possibility...

What ever happened though Paul was an essential lynch pin of the expansion of Christianity to the Hellenized world...

He also I believe was a major influence in the conflict between the Jewish Christians and the Greek speaking Hellenized Christians.. which was resolved over time, but maybe never completely so... Probably there were many hurt feelings..

American Standard Version
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

- Galatians 2:14

I believe Paul is a fascinating study and that there are many aspects to it that are to this day enigmatic and unresolved.

- Art

 

[Secundulus]

What proof does anyone have that Paul did not actually have a real vision. The truth is that you don't have any proof. The only thing you have is your base assumption that Christianity with its resurrection and everything else cannot really be true.

All of your scholarship follows from that assumption. Can a scholarly conclusion that is biased by its assumptions be considered definitive? I think not. It is simply one possible explanation. It is not fact.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

What proof does anyone have that Paul did not actually have a real vision. The truth is that you don't have any proof. The only thing you have is your base assumption that Christianity with its resurrection and everything else cannot really be true.

The only proof they have is the speculations of so-called contemporary scholars. These modern scholars create the post-modern interpretations of biblical accounts, and the atheist have more faith in those than they have for science, or their own logic for the argument's sake. The issue that is being ignored here is that Paul had many disciples and converts who also experienced Christ in their lives. A liar's disciple is also a liar I guess, that includes the author of Acts, St. Luke, St. Paul's companion.

This thread is essentially a justification of their "scholarly" position.

 

[Isambard]

What proof does anyone have that Paul did not actually have a real vision. The truth is that you don't have any proof. The only thing you have is your base assumption that Christianity with its resurrection and everything else cannot really be true.

All of your scholarship follows from that assumption. Can a scholarly conclusion that is biased by its assumptions be considered definitive? I think not. It is simply one possible explanation. It is not fact.

What of Joseph Smith or Muhammed?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

There is a possibility Saul had an epileptic seizure causing his fall from the horse and seeing a bright light and hearing a voice:

On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice

...And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

I guess the whole crew was epileptic.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

What of Joseph Smith or Muhammed?

Do we compare the "vision" [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-and-bull, or we compare how they turned out according to the accounts?

 

[Secundulus]

What of Joseph Smith or Muhammed?

Both of them contradict Paul. Paul knew Peter and James and the others and Muhammed and Joseph Smith did not.

Paul did not teach anything different than John or James or Jude or Peter. Read their Epistles for evidence.

Muhammed taught something entirely different. Muhammed in actuality taught nothing but hyper pharisaical Judaism with the rejoinder that he was a new messenger of God and so got to have more wives and got to keep the majority of the booty from those he conquered.

Joseph Smith simply reiterated the beliefs of the fourth century priest Arius who was entirely discredited by Athanasius, amongst others.

 

[Arthra]

I thought the topic here was "non-Christian views o fPaul"?

 

[TheD]

Paul was fabricated by Marcion, the works of Josephus supplied Roman Catholic novelists with additional material to NT "scripture", common practice undoubtedly.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

By whom was Marcion was fabricated?

 

[Druweid]

...And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

I guess the whole crew was epileptic.

That, of course, would be quoted from Acts 9:7 (NKJV?).

But then, in Acts 22:9, Paul says "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

Thoughts?

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

 

[ahmid]

That, of course, would be quoted from Acts 9:7 (NKJV?).

But then, in Acts 22:9, Paul says "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

Thoughts?

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

Acts 9:7 "...heard the sound..." NIV
Acts 22:9 "...companions..did not understand the voice of him.." NIV

So they heard a sound but did not understand it, as Paul did. This phenomenon is repeated on various occasions as when Jesus hears "I have glorified it and will glorify it again." (john 12:28) Only a few understood the noise while others only heard thunder.

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Even as Paul thru Jesus Christ convinced idol worshiping infidels in the first century; likewise do I move about Breaking the Sword of Islam. For the true G*d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. I will love G*d and my neighbor. By Jesus Christ, all evil is bound from hindering. --- Ahmid Truth

G*d thru Jesus Christ bless Zakaria Botros - today he is reaching up to 50 million Muslims in the middle east through televised evangelism via satellite. Reportedly hundreds a week are turning to Christ and abandoning Islam... Hallelujah. 3lotus.com
Help Stop Islam! ...over 12,000 selfish attacks since 9/11 ... Islam Killshttp://christianforums.com/showthre...d.php?p=49020070////////////////lpost49020070

 

[ahmid]

Of course non-christians think Paul's faith in Jesus was fabricated while he healed people miraculously, suffered near death beatings for his faith, denied monetary compensation but gave away every offering he received to the poor or other church members, argued with Peter and the other disciples over just one dilemma (that of circumcision), and finally died a horrible death never recanting his faith nor disclosing his true intentions but knowing hell was his destination for lying and saying Jesus is Lord.

-------------------------------------------------
Even as Paul thru Jesus Christ convinced idol worshiping infidels in the first century; likewise do I move about Breaking the Sword of Islam. For the true G*d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. I will love G*d and my neighbor. By Jesus Christ, all evil is bound from hindering. --- Ahmid Truth

G*d thru Jesus Christ bless Zakaria Botros - today he is reaching up to 50 million Muslims in the middle east through televised evangelism via satellite. Reportedly hundreds a week are turning to Christ and abandoning Islam... Hallelujah. 3lotus.com
Help Stop Islam! ...over 12,000 selfish attacks since 9/11 ... Islam Killshttp://christianforums.com/showthre...d.php?p=49020070////////////////lpost49020070

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste Anatolian,

thank you for the post.

you didn't have a category for me so i didn't vote.

in my view Paul is a Fifth Column.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column

metta,

~v

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

What proof does anyone have that Paul did not actually have a real vision. The truth is that you don't have any proof. The only thing you have is your base assumption that Christianity with its resurrection and everything else cannot really be true.

What proof do you have that Alexander the Great was not semi-divine - as EVERY SINGLE ANCIENT SOURCE testifies?
What proof do you have that Joseph Smith did not find Golden Plates and translated them into garbled Jacobean English?
What proof do you have that Mohammed wasn't visited by the Archangel Gibreel and penned the last authoritative revelation of the One True God?
What proof do you have that mankind is not infested with body thetans created by the evil galactic emperor Xenu?

In the face of unfalsifiable but highly spurious claims, it's best to maintain a high level of skepticism.
You use a lopsided standard that exempts Christianity from the demand for a minimum requirement of credibility and likelihood - I don't. It doesn't exactly help that the motif of the death-and-rebirth deity (and rituals such as baptism/initiation and communion) were quite popular in the mediterranean at that point of history, either.

All of your scholarship follows from that assumption. Can a scholarly conclusion that is biased by its assumptions be considered definitive? I think not. It is simply one possible explanation. It is not fact.

If somebody made the claims Paul made back then TODAY, you'd be one of the first to call him either a crook or a lunatic - and rightly so. His story is no more credible than anything ever produced by sectarians and cult leaders throughout history.