The Noah Myth

[Vanguard PCD]

I do not believe in the Noah story...at least not the way it has been told. I will cover several key points that make me doubt the validity of the story. Let's get started.

1. The entire human race comes from Noah's family. Genetically, this has been shown to be impossible by science. There are too many different genes in human DNA to have come from a single male/female, much less a small family. Scientists have estimated that at least 10,000 different people were needed to cover the entire human DNA gene pool.

2. Two of every land animal, male and female. Ok so this leads to a few questions. What did the animals eat while on the ark? How did a handful of people manage to feed that many animals and shovel that much poop out every single day?

3. The water rose to cover the tallest mountains. So there was so much water that Mt. Everest, at over 29,000 feet, was completely covered. Hmmm. The average temps of Mt. Everest's peak ranges between -2 F during the summer and -76 F during the winter. Water freezes at 32 F so, Noah and company would have been frozen in place...indefinitely.

4. The air thins out at high altitudes, and oxygen content diminishes. Altitude sickness can start at 8,000 feet, much less 29,000. This can make breathing difficult for some, and it can be lethal for others. Yet none on the ark died from this condition (human or animal). Not the strongest point but it is a concern.

5. The horizon, while standing on level ground, is ~3 miles away. The curvature of the earth causes this. If you go out on the middle of Lake Superior, you will see nothing but water in every direction, for miles and miles. I imagine this is the phenomenon that Noah experienced and he described it as "all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered."

6. Every culture has a flood story. Yes, because most cultures lived near water in order to survive. Their region may have flooded, but that does not mean the entire world flooded.

7. Noah was so righteous and holy that when he came off the ark, he got drunk and laid around naked. That was the only man worth saving?

8. Noah made a burnt offering of animals after coming out of the ark. Which species did he cause to go extinct, by sacrificing them? Also, the aroma was pleasing to God...He can smell? Does that mean that He has a physical body, complete with olfactory nerve?

9. A wind passed over the earth and blew the water away. Hmmm...to where? Was the earth originally flat, and the water just fell off the edges? [sarcasm] How did the wind, at 29,000 feet, melt the ice? Windchill is colder than normal air temp.

10. Carnivores have specifically designed teeth (sharp and pointed), claws and digestive acids. If they were plant eaters, their teeth would be like that of a herbivore. What did they eat after coming off the ark? There were only two of each animal. To eat one means that they can't reproduce. While we are at it, how did all the marsupials manage to wind up exclusively in Australia?

No, the Noah story is not literal. Perhaps there is some truth to it, but I am more inclined to believe that it was a local flood, not global.

 

[Anto9us]

"2. Two of every land animal, male and female."

Oh it's wilder than that, P A --

7 pairs of CLEAN animals - 1 pair of unclean animals - in other section of Genesis

(this occurred WAY before any designation of "clean vs unclean" was given n Leviticus


There was a WINDOW in the ark, doncha know?

And maybe the APES were trained to help shovel poop out of it every day

and them birds what flew out & came back -- between biblical Noah and Mesopotamian Utnapishtim

there were doves, ravens, crows - different kinds of fowl

Primi -- you prolly don't literally believe that Samson killed a THOUSAND Phillistines in one day with a donkey's jawbone -- 1,000.

You also prolly don't literally believe that Joshua COMANDED THE SUN TO STAND STILL and it did --and even WENT BACKWARDS too -- you --

you Heathen!!

(welcome to the club)

 

[drstevej]

Matthew 24:37-38
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark."

Reject Noah and Jesus gets tossed out with him.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Matthew 24:37-38
"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark."

Reject Noah and Jesus gets tossed out with him.

Nah.

Your selected verse is part of the parable of the fig tree. You dont have to believe in a literal Noah story in order to believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Der Alte]

"2. Two of every land animal, male and female."

Oh it's wilder than that, P A --

7 pairs of CLEAN animals - 1 pair of unclean animals - in other section of Genesis

(this occurred WAY before any designation of "clean vs unclean" was given n Leviticus

And your point is? God would have known which animals were clean/unclean.

There was a WINDOW in the ark, doncha know?

So?

And maybe the APES were trained to help shovel poop out of it every day

and them birds what flew out & came back -- between biblical Noah and Mesopotamian Utnapishtim

there were doves, ravens, crows - different kinds of fowl

Never seen trained animals? I wonder if God could have made all the animals hibernate? Nah! Lets just dismiss the story as a fable.

Primi -- you prolly don't literally believe that Samson killed a THOUSAND Phillistines in one day with a donkey's jawbone -- 1,000.

Where does the Bible say one day?

You also prolly don't literally believe that Joshua COMANDED THE SUN TO STAND STILL and it did --and even WENT BACKWARDS too -- you --

you Heathen!!

(welcome to the club)

Hey! Why stop there? How can we believe that God created man from the dust of the earth? Come on! Isn't it more reasonable to believe that life formed by chance in some primeval swampy muck? Wonder how hard it would have been for God to bend light rays and make it appear that the sun had stood still or went backward? There is nothing here that God could not have done. If you believe all that stuff you are spreading you are in the wrong place this is a Christian Only forum..

 

[Vanguard PCD]

If you believe all that stuff you are spreading you are in the wrong place this is a Christian Only forum..

I am a Christian, which is to say that I believe in Christ Jesus as the Messiah; God's son, and through Him we are saved.

However, this is the Unorthodox Forum, where subjects like the OP are to be discussed. Perhaps you are in the wrong forum?

 

[Der Alte]

I am a Christian, which is to say that I believe in Christ Jesus as the Messiah; God's son, and through Him we are saved.

However, this is the Unorthodox Forum, where subjects like the OP are to be discussed. Perhaps you are in the wrong forum?

I notice you ignored most of my post. Do you believe that God is omnipotent and that He created the world and everything in/on it? If God created the world and everything in/on it I believe that he can manipulate everything to suit His will.

 

[Anto9us]

Jesus can use the story of Noah as an illustration -- everyone knew the STORY -- He can make a point with it -- and it doesn't mean He is declaring that the Noah account is LITERALLY TRUE -- now COME ON!

Same with Jonah -- or Daniel -- referring to the story (even naming the prophet Jonah or the prophet Daniel) to make a point is not the same as a declaration that Jonah or Daniel were literal people

Was the beggar Lazarus a real literal person?

I can say "Paul Bunyan was a really big lumberjack!" and people know the story and know what I'm talking about -- am I asserting that Paul Bunyan was a literal historical person?

If every scholar who rejects the historicity of Jonah and Daniel and Noah is THROWING OUT JESUS -- well -- are they just SPREADING POISON and NOT REALLY CHRISTIAN ?

That's a bit much to claim, imo.

A "Christian Only" forum does not equate to a

"The Bible is LITERALLY TRUE in every detail Forum"

Well, this is UDD - I was not aware that a belief in the historicity of Noah, Jonah, or Daniel was a LITMUS TEST of whether one is 'throwing out Jesus', is not a Christian, or is 'spreading something' bad

And I think Primi's word is a good one:

"Nah"

 

[CherubRam]

Two of every kind would be unnecessary. It should read: Two of every kind that God commanded.

#2. The air that we breath would rise with the rising of the water.

#3. The water would be absorbed back into the ground through volcanic activity.

And the list could go on. You guys are not thinking.

 

[Anto9us]

Gen 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

 

[Anto9us]

Lev 11:1
¶
And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,



Lev 11:2

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.




Lev 11:3

Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.




Lev 11:4

Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.



Lev 11:5

And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.



Lev 11:6

And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.


Lev 11:7

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Lev 11:8

Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.



Gen 9:1

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.



Gen 9:2

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.


Gen 9:3


Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you;


even as the green herb have I given you all things.

--------------------------------------------
Wait - let's compare something --

Lev 11:8

Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

and

Gen 9:3


Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you;


even as the green herb have I given you all things.
----------------------------------------------

In parts of the Noah story -- ch 7 -- reference is made to clean and unclean animals --
in chapter nine it says man can eat EVERY moving thing

Speaking of "THINKING" -- let us see if maybe a Documentary Hypothesis has some merit here

-- perhaps a PRIESTLY source retro-fitting the "clean/unclean" code back into Noah's time ?

and another tradition/source perhaps, that is declaring EVERY moving thing legal to eat in ch 9?

Then in Moses and Aaron's time -- maybe say 1500 BC - the clean/unclean code is designated... hmmmm....

THINKING GUYS might realize that probably the MAJORITY of Bible scholars might say the Noah account is
different pieces of tradition woven together - NOT literal ;

That probably the MAJORITY of Bible scholars do not consider "Daniel" an historical prophet who lived in Babylonian exile
but rather is a character inserted into a narrative set in that time whereas the book of Daniel was written in Macabbean times

that Jonah is a story

that Job is a play

but even if ye say that these LIBERAL SCHOLARS are simply unchristian "throwers-out of Jesus"

you must know deep down that they exist -- they are serious in their beliefs
and maybe should not be merely dismissed as
unspiritual spreaders of something bad

see then that ye walk circumspectly, and do not stumble due to your

BROAD PHYLACTERIES AND LONG TASSLES!

 

[CherubRam]

Lev 11:1
¶
And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,



Lev 11:2

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.




Lev 11:3

Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.




Lev 11:4

Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.



Lev 11:5

And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.



Lev 11:6

And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.


Lev 11:7

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

Lev 11:8

Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.



Gen 9:1

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.



Gen 9:2

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.


Gen 9:3


Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you;


even as the green herb have I given you all things.

--------------------------------------------
Wait - let's compare something --

Lev 11:8

Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

and

Gen 9:3


Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you;


even as the green herb have I given you all things.
----------------------------------------------

In parts of the Noah story -- ch 7 -- reference is made to clean and unclean animals --
in chapter nine it says man can eat EVERY moving thing

Speaking of "THINKING" -- let us see if maybe a Documentary Hypothesis has some merit here

-- perhaps a PRIESTLY source retro-fitting the "clean/unclean" code back into Noah's time ?

and another tradition/source perhaps, that is declaring EVERY moving thing legal to eat in ch 9?

Then in Moses and Aaron's time -- maybe say 1500 BC - the clean/unclean code is designated... hmmmm....

THINKING GUYS might realize that probably the MAJORITY of Bible scholars might say the Noah account is
different pieces of tradition woven together - NOT literal ;

That probably the MAJORITY of Bible scholars do not consider "Daniel" an historical prophet who lived in Babylonian exile
but rather is a character inserted into a narrative set in that time whereas the book of Daniel was written in Macabbean times

that Jonah is a story

that Job is a play

but even if ye say that these LIBERAL SCHOLARS are simply unchristian "throwers-out of Jesus"

you must know deep down that they exist -- they are serious in their beliefs
and maybe should not be merely dismissed as
unspiritual spreaders of something bad

see then that ye walk circumspectly, and do not stumble due to your

BROAD PHYLACTERIES AND LONG TASSLES!

Did you take into consideration that things change? We were created to be vegetarians, science has proven that. After the flood we were given permission to eat any flesh. In Moses day it became unhealthy to eat certain meats. As for scholars, they all have an OPINION.

 

[Anto9us]

yeah well THINGS CHANGE INDEED

and I bow out of this thread

expanding ideas on LITERALNESS far beyond just "the Noah Myth" into broader territories

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=66302511#post66302511

 

[rick357]

As to the clean and unclean this would be speaking of sacrificial animals as there was no need for dietary laws about animals at that time...and hibernation is the simplist fix for both diet and waste...all the land was one at the time so the altitude of mountains at the time is unknown....it is possible the flood was the catylist for continental drift....God then as now judges fallen man by what he believes not on if he can sin....the only details in Gods word are those that teach us who the living word is as he is that word flesh....but he also does not tell us a lie so we can learn a truth

 

[AmericanChristian91]

I agree with Primi, God did not send some global flood to wipe out almost all of Man. Some other things that don't make sense when it comes to a global flood.

How did Noah accommodate for the various diets (not just meat eaters, since plant eaters do not eat all the same plants)?

Also certain animals depend on certain/specific climates to be alive, but if there is just 1 climate in the ark, this is not good for animals who's natural climate is different.

Not only that, but the Ark is not big enough to carry enough type of animals to result in the massive amounts of species/diversity we have today.

We also do not find evidence for all animal life being traced back to some point in the middle east (or wherever the Ark supposedly landed).

Of course the flood also goes against what we know of human history/migrations. There were people living in various parts of the world (within civilizations or not) before the supposed flood date, and they..........kept on living. The native americans and the aboriginals of Australia have roots that go back far longer then the flood date, and they sure were not wiped out.

There are of course various places in the world where certain species can ONLY be found in those areas. One must wonder how surviving species from the Ark would get there (especially if a land animal is blocked from its home by water)

Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition

That site helps to show why a Global Flood is ridiculous.

References to ancient (and incorrect) cosmology throughout the Noah story (after all, the "earth" being flooded in the myth is not our spherical earth that is moving and orbiting the sun, loaded with all of our continents) also helps me be convinced this story was never supposed to be histrorically accurate.

 

[1213]

1. The entire human race comes from Noah's family. Genetically, this has been shown to be impossible by science. There are too many different genes in human DNA to have come from a single male/female, much less a small family. Scientists have estimated that at least 10,000 different people were needed to cover the entire human DNA gene pool.

But isn’t the same problem also with the evolution theory? Did Evolution produce 10 000 people at the same time from some other species?

Bible seems to say that people were good (flawless) at the beginning when they were created. When God was rejected, all started to degenerate (for example people couldn’t live as long). It is possible that those early people were genetically much better than we are today.

2. Two of every land animal, male and female. Ok so this leads to a few questions. What did the animals eat while on the ark? How did a handful of people manage to feed that many animals and shovel that much poop out every single day?

Maybe they ate some things that multiplied fast and could eat things that floated around the Ark. Also it is possible that the animals were not fully grown, but babies and therefore didn't need so much. It maybe also possible that they fasted. And I think there were not as many “species” that modern day science says we have today. For example, if the Noah story is true, all different people are from few similar people. There much have happened some kind of “evolution” or rather devolution, because now we have for example “black” and “white” people. Probably same have happened also with animals and it may be possible that there were for example one couple of bears and all modern bears are offspring of those two and there has happened some changes in their offspring by genetic mechanisms.

3. The water rose to cover the tallest mountains. So there was so much water that Mt. Everest, at over 29,000 feet, was completely covered. Hmmm. The average temps of Mt. Everest's peak ranges between -2 F during the summer and -76 F during the winter. Water freezes at 32 F so, Noah and company would have been frozen in place...indefinitely.

It could be so that modern mountains were born at the same event. Here is link to pictures that gives the principle how modern continents were born when the fountains of great deep were burst open and flood came.

Are you a disciple of Jesus?

In my opinion you point is based on false assumptions and that is why it falsely looks like impossible.

7. Noah was so righteous and holy that when he came off the ark, he got drunk and laid around naked. That was the only man worth saving?

Yes, not wery good, but still, he was loyal (faithful) to God and I think therefore seen as righteous.

But are you really saying that everyone who has been drunk should perish?

8. Noah made a burnt offering of animals after coming out of the ark. Which species did he cause to go extinct, by sacrificing them? Also, the aroma was pleasing to God...He can smell? Does that mean that He has a physical body, complete with olfactory nerve?

It is possible that there were animals that got offspring during their voyage.

9. A wind passed over the earth and blew the water away. Hmmm...to where? Was the earth originally flat, and the water just fell off the edges? [sarcasm] How did the wind, at 29,000 feet, melt the ice? Windchill is colder than normal air temp.

Again you make bad assumptions, which make the story look like impossible.

I believe the wind blew the waters to north and south and it piled up to glaciers.

10. Carnivores have specifically designed teeth (sharp and pointed), claws and digestive acids. If they were plant eaters, their teeth would be like that of a herbivore. What did they eat after coming off the ark? There were only two of each animal. To eat one means that they can't reproduce. While we are at it, how did all the marsupials manage to wind up exclusively in Australia?

On what basis there were just two of each species? Does Bible tell that the animals didn’t multiply at all?

 

[he-man]

I agree with Primi, God did not send some global flood to wipe out almost all of Man.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobeyed, once when the patience of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2Pe 2:5 ​

​

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;​

Heb 11:7 ​

​

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.​

Eze 14:11 ​

​

That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.​

Isa 54:9 ​

​

For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Gen 8: 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
​

 

[Vanguard PCD]

...all the land was one at the time so the altitude of mountains at the time is unknown....it is possible the flood was the catylist for continental drift...

Uh, no.

The theory of Pangea is sound and I agree with it, however, I do not agree with your timeline. Continental Drift happens at a rate of 1 inch per year. Knowing that...

1 foot = 12 years
10 feet = 120 years
100 feet = 1,200 years
1,000 feet = 12,000 years

At this point we are only at 1/5 of a mile, yet have gone way beyond the literalists' view of Young Earth and 6,000 years. There are several thousand miles between eastern North America and western Europe.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

For some reason the ability to quote is messed up currently...

"Bible seems to say that people were good (flawless) at the beginning when they were created."

Good does not mean flawless. When the Bible says very good, does that mean very flawless, as if there are degrees of flawlessness?

"It maybe also possible that they fasted."

For 5 months?

Even if we go with the hibernation theory, the animals would be starving when they woke up, and the carnivores would eat their prey, which leads us back to the original problem already outlined.

"I believe the wind blew the waters to north and south and it piled up to glaciers."

Name one that glacier that is over 29,000 feet tall in either the north or south pole region. The water had no where to go. The polar ice caps, which do not melt, don't even hold 1/10 that mass.

I am sorry, but a literal view of a global flood just does not make sense. You have to really stretch things to overcome science and what we do know about the world around us. I find that the simplest answer is the right one...it wasn't global.

FYI- you don't have to interpret every single thing in the Bible as 100% literal in order to be a Christian. Even Jesus used parables.

 

[rick357]

Uh, no.

The theory of Pangea is sound and I agree with it, however, I do not agree with your timeline. Continental Drift happens at a rate of 1 inch per year. Knowing that...

1 foot = 12 years
10 feet = 120 years
100 feet = 1,200 years
1,000 feet = 12,000 years

At this point we are only at 1/5 of a mile, yet have gone way beyond the literalists' view of Young Earth and 6,000 years. There are several thousand miles between eastern North America and western Europe.

For a very long time a similar argument was raised about the Grand Canyon and how many thousands of years it must have taken for the water to dig that Canyon... then came Mount Saint Helens and then a matter of days a deep Canyon was dug through solid rock. and as with any other event when something is pressure put on it and it breaks the first breakage is extreme and then slowly it begins to fade... now I don't think that I'm going to convince you of anything except for the fact that perhaps there are things that have not been considered or seen or things that even are not recorded we won't know about that time... no one can say that they are using science if they do not allow for the idea that they are wrong.