The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[dad]

Everyone except postmodern relativists.

The rest of us understand that words have meanings, and that the author's intended meaning is where the source of meaning lies.

Appeal to popularity? Maybe we should see what is best for 10,000 flies? Of course words have meanings. Meanings that we can understand today as well as those who lived long ago could understand.
The main thing to understanding the meaning of the words is God's Spirit! Pharisees had all sorts of understanding of their times, yet they understood not.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If it is for teaching us today, then we should be able to understand it. If it was limited to the customs and comprehension of people from 2000 years ago, then it would have been mainly for teaching them.

Of course we can and do learn form their story, but we aren't them. I haven't wandered in the desert for 40 years, 10,000 years ago, have you? I haven't walked in the Garden of Eden wearing fig leaves. Have you?

All of God's Word has value to all Christians, but very little of it is directed at Christians of all ages.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The main thing to understanding the meaning of the words is God's Spirit!

Reading comprehension and a functioning brain are helpful, too.

If one can read a news paper, history book or novel, one can read and understand the Bible.

 

[dad]

Of course we can and do learn form their story, but we aren't them. I haven't wandered in the desert for 40 years, 10,000 years ago, have you?

Since those things happened for examples for US, no need to wander in a desert.

I haven't walked in the Garden of Eden wearing fig leaves. Have you?

No need to.

All of God's Word has value to all Christians, but very little of it is directed at Christians of all ages.

? Who did you think it was directed to..Leprechauns?

 

[dad]

Reading comprehension and a functioning brain are helpful, too.

Being as a child helps. He that thinks he knows something knows nothing.

If one can read a news paper, history book or novel, one can read and understand the Bible.

No. One needs the Spirit of God. Otherwise the book is locked to them mostly. No amount of agonizing over syllables, or Greek subtleties could help.

 

[Haipule]

Regarding Protestant "Election": in Romans 9:11, Paul is referring to Rebecca's twin sons Jacob and Esau. How one was chosen even before their birth having done nothing good, or bad. Paul made that statement questioningly. Yet, as Paul stated, this goes back to God's promise to Abraham concerning his future son Isaac and his descendants. God had made a proclamation/promise to Abraham and kept His promise. That is why God had to make a choice. God isn't actually choosing per se, He is keeping His promise. As God promised Rebecca before the birth, "The older shall serve the younger.'' Jacob was the younger. So this was not an act of injustice on God's part as Paul stated. It is the keeping of a promise. The last phrase from the Greek bears this out: "That(purpose) thee down(from authority) out(from)-to-say(choice) in-front-to-display of-thee God
might-always-stand." Romans 9:11b

To invent it to say anything else and apply that to us is weird.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If it is for teaching us today, then we should be able to understand it. If it was limited to the customs and comprehension of people from 2000 years ago, then it would have been mainly for teaching them.

What customs do you speak of specifically?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Being as a child helps. He that thinks he knows something knows nothing.
No. One needs the Spirit of God. Otherwise the book is locked to them mostly. No amount of agonizing over syllables, or Greek subtleties could help.

And cannot be taught because they can't fathom that they may not be right. God will let someone walk in error if they are prideful about it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

And cannot be taught because they can't fathom that they may not be right. God will let someone walk in error if they are prideful about it.

Like the apostle Paul?

 

[Hammster]

I read it. I know how you do so I don't write out too much.

If you aren't willing to honor the OP, then I ask you to not participate.

Thanks.

 

[dad]

What customs do you speak of specifically?

Whatever customs they think we need to know about then to understand it now. It is nice to get some background and knowledge and Greek etc. However, what we really need is the spirit to understand. The folks who know the most Greek and etc seem to be the ..most confused.

 

[dad]

And cannot be taught because they can't fathom that they may not be right. God will let someone walk in error if they are prideful about it.

Kids can be taught. They don't try to psychoanalyze and second guess and over complicate things.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Folks, you need to stay on topic. It is stated in the OP. ​

 

[Hammster]

I was content to let this go. However, in light of the resurgence in straw man arguments, I thought I'd bump it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I was content to let this go. However, in light of the resurgence in straw man arguments, I thought I'd bump it.

I enjoy discussing Theology, especially the grace of God, and grace might be the least discussed aspect of Calvinism, here. We often refer to this doctrines as, "The Doctrines of Grace", and I would welcome any discussion with reasonable people who refrain from straw man fallacies.

Any takers?

 

[EmSw]

I enjoy discussing Theology, especially the grace of God, and grace might be the least discussed aspect of Calvinism, here. We often refer to this doctrines as, "The Doctrines of Grace", and I would welcome any discussion with reasonable people who refrain from straw man fallacies.

Any takers?

Is this a doctrine of grace?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Is this a doctrine of grace?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

Grace allows freedom to obey, so yes, that's grace.

The "doctrines of grace" is another term for Reformed soteriology.

 

[EmSw]

Grace allows freedom to obey, so yes, that's grace.

The "doctrines of grace" is another term for Reformed soteriology.

The freedom to obey? Grace doesn't allow it, it commands it.

So, 'denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age' is Reformed soteriology. Why don't you say your soteriology is what you do?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The freedom to obey? Grace doesn't allow it, it commands it.

So, 'denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age' is Reformed soteriology. Why don't you say your soteriology is what you do?

If one obeys to gain something then his obedience is only every self-serving. Only grace allows for true obedience. If I have nothing to gain or lose, I am then, and only then, free to truly love God and neighbor.

 

[EmSw]

If one obeys to gain something then his obedience is only every self-serving. Only grace allows for true obedience. If I have nothing to gain or lose, I am then, and only then, free to truly love God and neighbor.

How about Jesus becoming the Author of your eternal salvation? This is gained through obedience.