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Which part is eluding your grasp?You explain your contradiction by quoting the contradiction? Once again, you demonstrate that the meaning of the world "explain" still eludes you.
More dancing and dodging. I guess that's just your thing.
Okay.No, I'm done. You've had chance after chance, and you just want to play your little games. It's clear you either can't explain, or you won't explain. Any more of your dodging and dancing will just be ignored.
Just the title of the thread alone is poisoning the well. The issue is can a Calvinist prove any argument I have made against Calvinism is a straw man argument?Which is why the OP goes farther than you quoted.
So asking for posts that aren't straw men is poisoning the well?Just the title of the thread alone is poisoning the well. The issue is can a Calvinist prove any argument I have made against Calvinism is a straw man argument?
So asking for posts that aren't straw men is poisoning the well?
Hammster said:How would you have framed it?
I never said they were all straw men. I said that they usually happen. So I provided a place to present arguments that could be demonstrated to not be straw men. Instead of saying, for instance, that Calvinism makes all men robots, one could go to a source and say "it's says this here, and I conclude that this makes men robots". Then it could be discussed.No, claiming that the arguments upfront are straw men is poisoning the well and there is no proof given in the OP that the arguments against Calvinism are straw men type arguments.
Unless specific proof is given that all arguments here against Calvinism are straw man arguments, leave out the claim arguments here against Calvinism are straw men type arguments.
You do not need to challenge it. You don't need to respond here at all. In fact, I'm not even asking you to challenge Calvinism. What I'm asking is that if you do, have integrity and challenge what we actually believe and not use the standard straw man arguments.
Maybe. Why?Isn't there a forum for extra-biblical literature?
Yes, clicked and read more than one.Have you even clicked one of the links?
Yes, clicked and read more than one.
Have I had any straw man arguments against Calvinism? If so, can you point it out.I never said they were all straw men. I said that they usually happen. So I provided a place to present arguments that could be demonstrated to not be straw men. Instead of saying, for instance, that Calvinism makes all men robots, one could go to a source and say "it's says this here, and I conclude that this makes men robots". Then it could be discussed.
So I'm not looking to "win". I'm just wanting a fair discussion based on what Reformed Theology actually teaches.
I have no idea if you have had any. This wasn't directed at any one person.Have I had any straw man arguments against Calvinism? If so, can you point it out.
There was this thread:
Five Misconceptions About Calvinism
I responded post #73, did I misrepresent Calvinism?
Five Misconceptions About Calvinism
Is there a common everyday misrepresentation of Calvinism that you see on this board? Can you give an example?
I will go first, although I have a feeling this will turn into a buzz saw: (From the Canons of Dort"
"FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 6. That some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it, proceeds from God's eternal decree. "For now unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18 A.V.). "who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" (Eph 1:11). According to which decree He graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe; while He leaves the non-elect in His just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, the merciful, and at the same time the righteous discrimination between men equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation, revealed in the Word of God, which, though men of perverse, impure, and unstable minds wrest it to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation."
Predestination/Election - The idea that God never gives most people the opportunity for salvation because he will not/has not chosen them.
Ezekiel 18:32 NIV
“For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
Through the prophet Ezekiel God makes the declaration that he takes no pleasure in the death of ANYONE. Now you can make the argument he is speaking only of the elect (Israelites) here, but that would present another problem with "Election", the idea that an elect can still die spiritually in sin. But I don't think he is speaking only of Israelites because Paul wrote in 1 Timothy that God wants ALL to be saved & Peter wrote that God wills ALL to come to repentance.
Luke records in Luke 7:29-30 that people had either accepted or rejected the purpose of God for their lives by accepting or rejecting John. This alone speaks of man's ability to accept or reject God's will (which as spoken above includes salvation for all people).
(The following are important questions for me concerning Calvinism but may not be related to the OP)
*This idea that God has purposes only a few for salvation from the beginning brings to bear much deeper and heavier questions that need asked but in this environment will probably be dismissed as "straw men", which is another issue altogether.
Why pray if God purposes all things and will do them without human interaction/intervention?
Why evangelize if the elect will be saved regardless?
Is God responsible for evil in the world if everything that happens, happens as a result of his will & purpose?
God says to repent for people to understand that they can't repent without He giving them repentance as in Acts 5:31.
Prayer is for relationship not for victory in evangelization.
The elect need the gospel to understand salvation and be saved.
Through His Son Jesus, God takes all responsibility. Man is not free to take any responsibility.
Regarding Protestant "Election": in Romans 9:11, Paul is referring to Rebecca's twin sons Jacob and Esau. How one was chosen even before their birth having done nothing good, or bad. Paul made that statement questioningly. .
If one obeys to gain something then his obedience is only every self-serving. Only grace allows for true obedience. If I have nothing to gain or lose, I am then, and only then, free to truly love God and neighbor.
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