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The No-Kids-Allowed Movement - Prejudice much?

bill5

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Amy cried for all of two seconds
Frankly I suspect it was a bit more than 2 seconds, but even if so, that's all it takes to disrupt, even ruin, what up until then was a nice quiet dining experience.


I've known too many adults who look pained at the idea of fine dining or theatre because they've never been and don't know how to behave. I don't want my children to grow up like that.
??? What's to know? I've never even heard of never mind met such an adult. It's pretty simple: keep your voices down and enjoy.

I looked pained at the idea of fine dining or theater because of the inevitable screaming child.


Thats another point I don't want my kids to grow up uncultured.
Fine. "Culture" your kids when they're old enough to appreciate said culture. Newborns and toddlers don't qualify.
 
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katautumn

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I took my kids to a hibachi steak house just last week and paid $150 for our meal. The reason being, I love my children.

I guess I'm failing to see what's so awesome about taking children to a hibachi joint. That doesn't even seem safe. That's like parents who take their toddlers to The Melting Pot and let them fling bits of bread into flaming hot pots of oil.

I love spending time with them and showing them a good life, and Ive taught them accordingly.

Kids deserve stuff like Joe's Crabshack where people do the Hokey Pokey next to your table and there's a giant plastic lobster hanging from the ceiling, not some stuffy place where the waiters wear coattails and cummerbunds. I can love spending time with my son and equally show my love by not forcing adult behaviors and expectations of him just because I refuse to either hire a sitter or miss out on that hundred dollar dining experience.

We had our 3 month old start to fuss at the resteraunt and I calmly got up, took her outside, fed her, and wnt back in. No harm done and had my boys thrown a fit, it wouldve been the same routine.

And how much nicer would it have been to have an uninterrupted dinner? It's like people who take newborns to the theater and have to take them into the lobby every ten minutes and miss most of the film. What's the point?

I dont believe my husband, I, and my kids should be banned from such activities because some couple choosing not to have children might hear a couple of cries from our table.

I chose to have children and I still don't want to hear or see anyone's kids when I'm at a fine dining establishment that caters exclusively to adult patrons any more than I want to be seated next to a table full of belligerent drunks. Personal anecdote time. When my husband and I first moved in together he wanted to take me to a really upscale Mexican restaurant for dinner. The clientele was predominantly adults, especially since it was later in the evening when we went. Somewhere between my first margarita and the handmade guacamole a mother came running past my table clutching her hand over the mouth of a very green faced little boy. She's muttering frantically, "oh, no, no, no!" and little chunks of puke are starting to mush out from between her fingers. They got just outside the restroom entrance when I guess her hand filled up with more vomit than it could hold and that kid unleashed the fury all over the floor. Suffice it to say we were no longer hungry so we paid for our drinks and dip and drank Starbucks for dinner.
 
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katautumn

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I've known too many adults who look pained at the idea of fine dining or theatre because they've never been and don't know how to behave. I don't want my children to grow up like that.

Heaven forbid your children grow up never knowing how to use opera glasses or which fork is for the salad. For what it's worth, we grew up poor and uncultured, and I still know both of the above. I suppose being raised in an outhouse with no fine dining experience from kindergarten on didn't place me at such a disadvantage after all.
 
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united4Peace

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I get annoyed even when there are teenagers at a R rated movie...or worse when we are invited to something that says no kids and then we go (when they were younger we had to hire a sitter) and there would be a ton of children running around. So much for a adult night out...and so much for hiring a sitter when we could have actually bought our kids
 
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mina

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I think I grew up "cultured". My childhood was full of museum visits, nice restaurants, ballets, etc.... BUT, my parents didn't take me or my siblings to those until we were about 7 or 8 and before it happened we "practiced" at home (which was rather fun!). I'm sure we acted out in the grocery store or something, but at certain places and events - we knew what was expected and that it was important to our parents.
 
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chelsea89

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I love children and my kids are very well behaved. Quite mellow and laid back. FYI Amy did only cry for about 2 seconds, we had a half an hour wait for a table and while we were being seated she began to cry so I immediately took her out. I hadn't even sat down and the other patrons hadn't even been seated at the time. If we happen to have a meltdown somewhere nice then we take the kid responsible out immediately without a second glance. If five seconds of a child crying keeps you from having a nice dinner, then I would suggest never going out because the old man with an annoying oxygen machine or the lady across the room screams in excitment over a marriage proposal might just tip you over the edge too. Children are a part of life whether one has decided to have their own or not. And since we are on a Christian forum I'd like to point out that Jesus Himself said not to hinder little children when addressed by Pharisees in much the same situation. It might not have been fine dining but obviously there was some social qualm with the kids being there. Making parents "pay the price" for having a family isn't quite fair just because it may bug your romantic night out. Why not kick every kid off the beach or out of an ice rink then too?
 
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ex-pat

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??? What's to know? I've never even heard of never mind met such an adult. It's pretty simple: keep your voices down and enjoy.

Really??? Wow. I've met far too many...adults in their 60s who look cross-eyed at restaurant menus online and and don't want to try the food there because it's "weird food" (not talking ethnic, just upscale). Friends, male and female, who won't even think about going to the ballet, or the symphony, because they don't see the point of watching people play music, or "jump around in tights". I'm talking about those people, male and female, who go to a restaurant and order hamburgers, plain, with ketchup (yes, seriously) because they don't know what else to order (twenty years later, one man said proudly to me "I'm learning to order chicken and salad sometimes"), or those who are acutely uncomfortable if a waiter places a napkin in their lap, or resets with new cutlery after each course. Some people feel uncomfortable ordering something, and suggest the other person order for them. It's pretty amazing you've never met anyone who has "issues" about "fancy" restaurants, but I concede it's possible.

I looked pained at the idea of fine dining or theater because of the inevitable screaming child.

That's why I said "six at the youngest". I don't expect a toddler to behave, nor an infant, so they STAY HOME. At six years old, the child knows enough not to misbehave, especially if it has been told what to expect and how to behave before then. Younger than that? Wouldn't care to risk it.


Fine. "Culture" your kids when they're old enough to appreciate said culture. Newborns and toddlers don't qualify.

Exactly. See above.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Reposted since the original post was the victim of a CF glitch.
 
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bill5

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I love children and my kids are very well behaved.
No one is questioning that. And please keep in mind this topic and discussion is about people and kids in general, not just yours. Nothing personal towards you at all. In fact you sound well ahead of a great many parents I see out there in that at least you address the situation!

Sorry but even if these were valid analogies (they aren't), those are extremely rare things. Children crying/screaming/etc in a restaurant (or many other public places where it is not appropriate, ie most of them), on the other hand, is extremely common.

But for the record, I do not consider an adult screaming their head off or making similarly obnoxious high noise levels particularly better or worse than a child doing it. Bottom line: be considerate of others and keep it quiet.

Back to your suggestion, I almost never do eat out anymore and the kid thing is precisely why. This is why I so welcome the idea of childless restaurants. To eat somewhere and know I won't have a kid screaming crying etc during the meal would be a most blessed change of pace.

Children are a part of life whether one has decided to have their own or not.
That is true. And-?

Making parents "pay the price" for having a family isn't quite fair just because it may bug your romantic night out.
?? What "price" are they paying? Being unable to take kids 6 and under to certain restaurants? So eat someplace else. So you're saying that that is unfair, but forcing those kids on other people and disrupting their meal is fair? Sorry I fail to see the logic. PS it has nothing to do with a "romantic night out" either.

Why not kick every kid off the beach or out of an ice rink then too?
Also not a valid analogy, but I suspect you already knew that....
 
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katautumn

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I love children

As do I. Very much so. With that said, I don't love seeing children in places where it isn't appropriate for them to be just because their parents are either too selfish to miss out on certain things when they can't find a sitter or they think their kids are special little snowflake angels who are exceptionally more well behaved than everyone's else's children.

and my kids are very well behaved.

Most people feel that way about their own children. The problem is that to some people what you may consider well behaved they may find a burden. At a playground or church picnic that's one thing. At an R-rated movie or art gallery or opera it poses a bit of a quandary.

Children are a part of life whether one has decided to have their own or not.

Yes, children are very much a part of life. I expect to see kids at the grocery store or park. I don't want to be staring at one hovering over the back of a booth at a fancy restaurant or a wine tasting, though.


Jesus did not want the disciples keeping children from seeing Him. The disciples had tried to shoo them away, thinking Jesus was far too important to be bothered with them.

Making parents "pay the price" for having a family isn't quite fair just because it may bug your romantic night out.

How is it making parents pay the price? Excuse me for saying this, but if a parent cannot be bothered with making arrangements for child care or miss out on some things then they aren't fit parents. I don't understand parents who either cannot sacrifice some things in life or lug their kids around everywhere. There's always that one jerk mother who brings her kid to the wedding where the invitation explicitly states, "adults only" or the moron dad who thinks kids belong at the tattoo studio or liquor store.

Why not kick every kid off the beach or out of an ice rink then too?

Because most beaches and ice rinks are family oriented.

ex-pat said:
Really??? Wow. I've met far too many...adults in their 60s who look cross-eyed at restaurant menus online and and don't want to try the food there because it's "weird food" (not talking ethnic, just upscale).

You're really hung up on this elitist lifestyle and assume that anyone who isn't must be uncivilized and was raised wrong. Who cares if someone looks at a nice menu and thinks the food is weird? How is that taking anything from your life? If you want to eat snails and fish eggs then knock yourself out. Why be so judgmental about people who don't care to?

Friends, male and female, who won't even think about going to the ballet, or the symphony, because they don't see the point of watching people play music, or "jump around in tights".

And the problem is? Some people don't like the ballet. It's okay for people to not enjoy the things you classify as "culture", you know? I love to knit, but I don't think people who think "using two sticks and a string to make something you can buy at Wal-Mart for $5" is ridiculous are Neanderthals.

I'm talking about those people, male and female, who go to a restaurant and order hamburgers, plain, with ketchup (yes, seriously) because they don't know what else to order

What?! You mean they didn't ask for it to be smothered in foie gras? Clearly those people must have been raised in a barn for liking plain hamburgers.

or those who are acutely uncomfortable if a waiter places a napkin in their lap, or resets with new cutlery after each course.

This may cause you to faint right away, but sometimes I use paper napkins. How gauche, right?!

It's pretty amazing you've never met anyone who has "issues" about "fancy" restaurants, but I concede it's possible.

Well some of us weren't raised with a silver spoon in our mouths, so we definitely wouldn't know what to do with one if it were sitting on a table in front of us. I guess my parents just didn't love us enough, lest they wouldn't have left us so unexposed to the things you find crucial during the formative years.
 
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chelsea89

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Sorry I meant Disciples I inserted Pharisee on my PS3. It will playback words up to whole paragraphs to save typing time. And just a thought, but when my grandparents were growing up families helped each other out, marriage was a lifetime commitment, and there was little to no fear that Jane Doe next door was going to run off with, rape or murder your kids on your night out. Oh and childcare didn't cost $200 a week or $30 a day. Most people would trade sitting for something. So enter the equation fear of who watches your child, higher costs, and more single parents and you get...? More parents who are forced to take their kids with them.
 
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bill5

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I'm sorry but that's a weak excuse. You are not "forced" to take your kids everywhere you go. If one is so broke they can't afford a sitter or so isolated they don't know a single adult they trust with their kids - and I think we all know that describes EXTREMELY few parents - they should stay home (or at least not visit upscale restaurants etc etc) until their kids are old enough AND well-behaved enough that they are sure beyond any reasonable doubt they will not emit ear-piercing screams/etc in public, even if "only" for a few seconds.

Honestly, it just amazes me that this is not stating the incredibly obvious for some.
 
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katautumn

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More parents who are forced to take their kids with them.

I can sympathize with parents who have to take their kids to the grocery store or the mechanics when the car needs a tune up. That's different. Those are things you simply cannot help it if you need to get something done and either cannot afford or cannot find a suitable caretaker for your children. Parents don't need to go on dates to five star restaurants, though. These luxury outings are not a vital part of anyone's life, ergo, a parent needn't feel forced into taking the kids everywhere.

This topic actually came up on another site I'm a member of. We were talking about parents who take their kids to knitting meet-ups that are largely adult oriented. You know, the sort of circle in which you don't want to have to censor yourself or hide your cashmere, because a gaggle of toddlers are running around digging through everyone's bags. Some people just couldn't grasp the concept of adult women wanting to sit down for an hour with other adult women without having kids running amok.

I love my son and I love spending as much time with him as possible, but I also realize and respect that most everyone else does not feel that same way about him and that's okay.
 
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ex-pat

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You misunderstand. I'm answering Bill's comment about never knowing anyone who didn't know how to behave at certain places with instances of people who were, unfortunately, made miserable by their own FEELINGS of not knowing what to expect, not about liking one thing or the other. And I specifically referenced taking only older children (not crying babies or toddlers) who had been carefully told what to expect. As for who cares? Sadly, many employers. Some have specific training classes for adults on how to eat properly. Many jobs require their employees to be familiar not only with American etiquette but also international etiquette.

I'm not speaking about people who just don't LIKE something, that's their choice. I'm speaking of people who are literally paralysed by not knowing if they'll like something. The PhD whose parents always hated "weird food" so dined only at chain restaurants despite his attempts to take them to nicer places, and who suddenly had to go to a networking event at an upscale business club with a dress code and dining rules that made him panic. or a college friend who I ran into while shopping and we decided to go grab a quick lunch at a cafe...nothing major upscale, a jeans and t-shirt place with a good menu, and having her comment about how nice everything looked, then getting confused when her food came and whispering "Is this what we ordered?"

I think all people should, WHEN OLD ENOUGH NOT TO CAUSE A DISTURBANCE (this includes not sitting appropriately, making faces, or any other means by which children can disturb others without making a sound) have some basic familiarity with a wide enough variety of social, cultural, dining, and theatre experiences so that they do not become adults who are afraid they can't behave, or will make a business or social gaffe.

I do not advocate snobbery, I advocate familiarity with all levels of regular life experience, from Costco hotdogs to fine dining. It's only that most often, you don't find people who've never had a hotdog, so you have to make more of a conscious effort to make sure OLDER children are exposed to higher end things, to make them comfortable as adults. [/QUOTE]




Again, I'm not talking about people who do, or do not LIKE something, I'm talking about the people who are AFRAID to try to go somewhere because they don't understand "the rules"...which they get all snarled up in. I know a man whose ex-wife used to tear him apart when they went to the symphony...he didn't offer to check her coat, buy her champagne at intermission, etc. When he told me he'd gotten a phobia of doing something WRONG because he didn't know what to do, I first laughed, and said that you only have to enjoy the music (he'd been an orchestra member in his high school years, and loved such music), he said, "No, really, please tell me before we go what you want me to do...and how to do it." He was so wound up in fears of not knowing what to do for things that didn't matter, shouldn't matter, that he couldn't feel comfortable.

Clearly, that woman was in the wrong, but the fear of not knowing what was expected kept her ex from feeling comfortable at something he enjoyed (classical music).

The stated goal of all etiquette is the making of those around you more at ease and more comfortable, not in scoring off someone for eating or not eating snails, but sadly people do judge others based on their familiarity with things...be it NASCAR etiquette, country fair etiquette, or business dining etiquette. I do not advocate this, but I do think that where possible, children should be familiar with a wide variety of circumstances, so that their job prospects are not limited. You want to be a sanitation engineer? Be the best educated one you can be. You want to be a diplomat? Ditto. Education never hurts.



What?! You mean they didn't ask for it to be smothered in foie gras? Clearly those people must have been raised in a barn for liking plain hamburgers.

Again, you misunderstand. The person I knew who did this did so because he knew what they were like, and distrusted other things through lack of familiarity, never ate a vegetable, even on hamburgers, and weighed over 400 pounds before finally seeing a nutritionist and was PROUD of having tried chicken and salads. He LIKED them, but never tried them growing up because he was so stuck on "what if I don't like it". I'm not being elitist, I'm answering Bill's comment about never knowing anyone who did not know what to do or what to order.




I do find variety crucial. I do not find snobbery, or reverse snobbery, crucial. My comments are limited to "Those who CAN" with "CHILDREN WHO ARE OLD ENOUGH NOT TO DISTURB" Experience with anything, from monster truck rallies to opera, is never a substitute for love, nor is it to be mistaken for such.

Peace
 
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bill5

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I'm sorry but that's absurd. The % of companies that require or even care about such things is EXTREMELY small, to put it mildly.

I'm not speaking about people who just don't LIKE something, that's their choice. I'm speaking of people who are literally paralysed by not knowing if they'll like something.
...which is also such a small % of people it's about a statistical zero.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to feel such a need for everyone when it impacts so very few, and even more ridiculous to have this extremist view that either people are highly refined and "cultured" or they are knuckle-dragging morons afraid/"paralyzed" by social situations or bound to make some severe social gaffe.

I advocate familiarity with all levels of regular life experience, from Costco hotdogs to fine dining.
I'm all for that but hardly consider it a "must" and realize that those who don't have it aren't all characters out of "Green Acres."

I know a man whose ex-wife used to tear him apart when they went to the symphony...he didn't offer to check her coat, buy her champagne at intermission, etc.
OH MY GOODNESS.......no champagne at intermission?? What's next, eating a salad with a dinner fork? The humanity!!

I am well read and quite "cultured," thank you very much, but frankly detest such pompous silliness. This reminds me of some of the things my girlfriend used to read about in "Miss Manners" - obscure social trivial nonsense which I cannot imagine any sane human being giving a hoot about. Anyone "afraid" of such things is in dire need of some self-esteem, to say nothing of a broader perspective.

The stated goal of all etiquette is the making of those around you more at ease and more comfortable,
Despite the fact that - beyond a few common sense basics - it does just the opposite? Yeah right.

NASCAR etiquette,
That is an oxymoron. Pro sports are even worse.

You want to be a sanitation engineer? Be the best educated one you can be.
uh, no. People do not aspire to be janitors and certainly not educated ones. Unless by "educated" you mean a G.E.D.

Education never hurts.
That much we agree on.

I'm answering Bill's comment about never knowing anyone who did not know what to do or what to order.
Well, not any more, really. You said you questioned my statement about that, which answered it fully. Everything after that was something else. Maybe it's my fault for responding to this in the first place. Back to the kids 6 and under
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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Awesome post!
 
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CrystalBrooke

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FaithPrevails

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I can't believe this is turning into a culture war.

I believe in exposing our children to culture as we are able to do so. There are matinees and lunch menus for the arts and fine dining. Children tend to do better during the day, rather than at night when they are starting to wear down.

But, they also need to be age appropriate and able to understand, at least on a basic level, what it is that they are being exposed to, IMO.
 
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