The new movement in the world.

[Bluelion]

2Tim.4

1. [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

We live in the age of Modern technology the time spent on things to occupy our persons time. People don't talk or sit down and communicate, in families. People choose not to believe, because they love their sin Example.

a Drunk is a Drunk because he likes his sin, A drug attic loves Drugs, finally a person with a sexual perversion loves their sin. Their our more sins than this but these are the most reveling. People when it comes to sin are like pigs you can clean them up but they will go right back , to the Hog pin and right back to where they were before. We our all Adams Children we were born in sin, Jesus is the hope Christians have to over come this curse.

It is a sad day but persecution and people will either stand for the world or Jesus
Christ its coming soon.

In Christ love

I disagree, I guess you have not seen this people you speak of. Drug addicts don't love drugs most any way. It is a addiction. Addiction which is the spirit of satan, why do they struggle so much look at who they go up against. I have a addiction to smoking. I hate everything about smoking, but when i try to stop it gets so bad i just give in. It is pure hell. It must be nice to not know that hell. I have prayed to stop my wife has prayed for me to stop. So i guess i just love smoking, no I hate it. But you fight against powers which are not in the world but in the heavens. Addiction is a good example of that.

 

[Alithis]

You are mistaken Rom 7:14

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

sure sounds like he is talking about the struggle of sin.

but you see the versus you quote are incomplete for he does not end there at that point -he is leading up to a point in roman 8 . remember in the original letter there are no chapters or versus ..it is one continuous letter . so if you take that part out by itself it will give an incomplete picture of what paul is saying .

 

[Alithis]

Michael.

Are you suggestion you no longer sin?

If so lets see lets compare you to the law.

I bet you tell a lie at some point that is a sin, I am sure you have a lustful thought at some point that is adultery. Do you love all humans? because if not you are sinning. Jesus said love each other as your self if you do not love everyone as your self guess what that is a sin. That is a commandment from God.

What is sin it is disobeying God, no?

So are you telling me that you do not sin because if that was true you would be able to heal the sick even if you sin only a little you would be so close to God you would be a prophet.

I am not endorsing the sin, but to say a person stops sinning completely when they are saved is not true and a lie.

I can point out where many prophets sinned, Jacob did this a lot, are you suggesting you are greater than Jacob? Peter sinned in the presence of Jesus, are you greater than Peter.

Why did Paul feel the need to tell us we are not under the Law? Hmm maybe because we still sin under the Law. So your suggesting Jesus saved us from the Law to put us back under the Law? And that now we obey the Law in its full? right.

not at all -i suggest no such thing . and yet yes.. i no longer resist the holy Spirit (for that is sin to the born again believer ) in regard to that past porn addiction ..i listen to him and submit my members as instruments of righteousness .. the only way i can ever fall to that sin is to disobey the Holy Spirit .. so my sin would be disobedience and that sin would lead to transgressing the law also and putting oneself back under that law wil prove guilt and bring condemnation and death - but again .. the sin that leads to it would be disobeying the Holy Spirit .
for it is this new life as new creatures in Christ that we are called to live in .. no longer the law .we are not under the law .this is so difficult for folks to grasp as we so want to achieve on our own merit but we simply cannot -for even if we abide by the written law perfectly the fact that once we broke it proves guilt and brings death - and so it is to everyone who lives that way .. as new creatures we now live by the law of the Spirit of life ..that brings life .. not the written law which proves guilt and condemns to death ..the law pauls calls "the ministry of death". 2 corinth..

but do not mistake me as if i disagree with you -i do not , we are looking at the same card from differing angles is all
in my flesh is no good thing -but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god - it is corrupt and it wil not be saved .
but we do not listen to the flesh nor obey it ..it is proven corrupted and condemned to the dust from whence it came ..
so as Paul says .. we now are to live after the spirit and put off the carnal desires of the flesh and live in the spirit .

the desires are there in the flesh and then the advasary uses the law to bash us on the head when we recognize those evil desires are within us and makes us feel bad that those desires are in us ...and uses the law to try to condemn us .. but Jesus already paid the full sentence of the law so it is done and cannot be done again.

so sin for us ..is to not live in the Spirit but follow the flesh .. it is to disobey the holy Spirit .

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments ..the word commandments literally translates as ..instructions and precepts

he also says my sheep HEAR my voice .. (not read my voice ) so his instructions are what he speaks to us in our hearts here today as he spoke to Adam in the garden -one on one . if we obey his voice .. we cannot sin .and he has set us free to do so .

hey -its all very good news

 

[Alithis]

by the way ,, no man heals the sic lol god does it through us and he does and has through me - we laid hands on my son just the other day for he had eczema attacking his skin and we prayed against it and it is now healed ..healing is hindered only by unbelief and more so by collective unbelief .
and prophecy ,tongues ,interpretation , discernment of spirits, visions ,dreams ... all of the Holy Spirit and all a part of our lives in the Spirit ... quite different to life in the flesh

 

[Bluelion]

but you see the versus you quote are incomplete for he does not end there at that point -he is leading up to a point in roman 8 . remember in the original letter there are no chapters or versus ..it is one continuous letter . so if you take that part out by itself it will give an incomplete picture of what paul is saying .

Again i ask are you saying you do not sin, that you do not give in to temptation. Most people lie at some point and that is a sin. So are you saying you are now with out sin, but that is not the promise which is yet to come.

That puts a person under the law once again. Who can be saved then? who can walk in this world and not sin? You place an un bearable burden on people which you your self do not keep. You are suggesting we then become like Christ after we are saved.

I smoke and that is a sin, so by your standards I am not saved because i struggle with sin. Is beliving in Jesus and baptism not enough for salvation? Are we to stop all sin in a world full of sin. That doesn't seem like God to me. That burden is not light and easy to carry. I been a Christian for 30 years, you saying i am supposed to go 30 years with out telling a lie in this world? and you say you do that? Reminds me of the Pharisee.

I would say God disagrees with you. I have been called to preach, and yet I struggle with sin. So why on earth would God call me? I am not even saved according to you.

You preach in possible standards that you do not keep. It is not new they did it in Jesus day as well.

 

[Alithis]

I disagree, I guess you have not seen this people you speak of. Drug addicts don't love drugs most any way. It is a addiction. Addiction which is the spirit of satan, why do they struggle so much look at who they go up against. I have a addiction to smoking. I hate everything about smoking, but when i try to stop it gets so bad i just give in. It is pure hell. It must be nice to not know that hell. I have prayed to stop my wife has prayed for me to stop. So i guess i just love smoking, no I hate it. But you fight against powers which are not in the world but in the heavens. Addiction is a good example of that.

so i dont derail the thread on a tangent of smoking ..i'll msg you

 

[Bluelion]

not at all -i suggest no such thing . and yet yes.. i no longer resist the holy Spirit (for that is sin to the born again believer ) in regard to that past porn addiction ..i listen to him and submit my members as instruments of righteousness .. the only way i can ever fall to that sin is to disobey the Holy Spirit .. so my sin would be disobedience and that sin would lead to transgressing the law also and putting oneself back under that law wil prove guilt and bring condemnation and death - but again .. the sin that leads to it would be disobeying the Holy Spirit .
for it is this new life as new creatures in Christ that we are called to live in .. no longer the law .we are not under the law .this is so difficult for folks to grasp as we so want to achieve on our own merit but we simply cannot -for even if we abide by the written law perfectly the fact that once we broke it proves guilt and brings death - and so it is to everyone who lives that way .. as new creatures we now live by the law of the Spirit of life ..that brings life .. not the written law which proves guilt and condemns to death ..the law pauls calls "the ministry of death". 2 corinth..

but do not mistake me as if i disagree with you -i do not , we are looking at the same card from differing angles is all
in my flesh is no good thing -but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god - it is corrupt and it wil not be saved .
but we do not listen to the flesh nor obey it ..it is proven corrupted and condemned to the dust from whence it came ..
so as Paul says .. we now are to live after the spirit and put off the carnal desires of the flesh and live in the spirit .

the desires are there in the flesh and then the advasary uses the law to bash us on the head when we recognize those evil desires are within us and makes us feel bad that those desires are in us ...and uses the law to try to condemn us .. but Jesus already paid the full sentence of the law so it is done and cannot be done again.

so sin for us ..is to not live in the Spirit but follow the flesh .. it is to disobey the holy Spirit .

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments ..the word commandments literally translates as ..instructions and precepts

he also says my sheep HEAR my voice .. (not read my voice ) so his instructions are what he speaks to us in our hearts here today as he spoke to Adam in the garden -one on one . if we obey his voice .. we cannot sin .and he has set us free to do so .

hey -its all very good news

I agree, my point is you seem to forget the struggle between the spirit and the flesh, Because once we could not struggle but had to obey the flesh, but God set us free so the spirit is free to struggle with the flesh. The flesh always wants its way. The spirit demands its way which is the way Of God. These to are the struggle that goes on in us here on earth.

I'll go a step further, people say they have fee will, but I believe we only have the free will to chose who will be our God. That is it, When we chose God we then seeks to take on Gods will and lay down are own, we willing become slaves to God. I don't know about you but I am a slave and i Love it, When God wants me to do some thing. When he calls me my heart burns like a wild fire and literally I have to obey, i can not say no. Which is why I am in school for preaching. I have doubts about it, but my heart would not stop burning untill i started classes. i could do nothing else, that is how strong it is when God calls me. I have no will, which is great.

People like to preach free will that you still have it after you are saved. There is freedom in God but not free will. How much free will do you think angels have. They can not chose to go or stay God sends them, yet at any time they have the same choice as us. They can chose God or evil. If they fall it is final.

But that is just where i am coming from. i don't understand why people want free will apart from the lord any way, look what Adam did with it. Do we really need to learn that lesson again?

 

[Alithis]

let me ease off here so we dont rehash old ground and just pick out your phrase

"

but I believe we only have the free will to chose who will be our God.

at this point in my life i really really strongly agree with that

 

[pilgrim42]

Michael.

Are you suggestion you no longer sin?

If so lets see lets compare you to the law.

I bet you tell a lie at some point that is a sin, I am sure you have a lustful thought at some point that is adultery. Do you love all humans? because if not you are sinning. Jesus said love each other as your self if you do not love everyone as your self guess what that is a sin. That is a commandment from God.

What is sin it is disobeying God, no?

So are you telling me that you do not sin because if that was true you would be able to heal the sick even if you sin only a little you would be so close to God you would be a prophet.

I am not endorsing the sin, but to say a person stops sinning completely when they are saved is not true and a lie.

I can point out where many prophets sinned, Jacob did this a lot, are you suggesting you are greater than Jacob? Peter sinned in the presence of Jesus, are you greater than Peter.

Why did Paul feel the need to tell us we are not under the Law? Hmm maybe because we still sin under the Law. So your suggesting Jesus saved us from the Law to put us back under the Law? And that now we obey the Law in its full? right.

Like I said before, the potential to commit sin is always with us. Does this mean that we need to continue the practice of sin? It seems to me that the Bible always discourages the practice of sin. The Apostle Paul said that we should not continue in sin. Can we slip up and commit a sin? Yes. Do we commit unintentional sins. Yes. The problem is willful sins. This is rebellion against God.

Here are some things that the Holy Spirit will help us with:

1. The Spirit fights our sinful desires


2. He makes evident the works of the flesh

3. He produces fruit in us

4. He empowers us to put sin to death

“And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.” Galatians 5:24–25

We can not resist the problem of sin by ourselves. We need the help of the Holy Spirit to keep us from sinning. Can I do it on my own? No. The Spirit is faithful to keep my heart in the right place so the desire for sin will not be there.

Ken
​

 

[pilgrim42]

Again i ask are you saying you do not sin, that you do not give in to temptation. Most people lie at some point and that is a sin. So are you saying you are now with out sin, but that is not the promise which is yet to come.

That puts a person under the law once again. Who can be saved then? who can walk in this world and not sin? You place an un bearable burden on people which you your self do not keep. You are suggesting we then become like Christ after we are saved.

I smoke and that is a sin, so by your standards I am not saved because i struggle with sin. Is beliving in Jesus and baptism not enough for salvation? Are we to stop all sin in a world full of sin. That doesn't seem like God to me. That burden is not light and easy to carry. I been a Christian for 30 years, you saying i am supposed to go 30 years with out telling a lie in this world? and you say you do that? Reminds me of the Pharisee.

I would say God disagrees with you. I have been called to preach, and yet I struggle with sin. So why on earth would God call me? I am not even saved according to you.

You preach in possible standards that you do not keep. It is not new they did it in Jesus day as well.

If we follow this line of reasoning out to its logical conclusion, then it would be logical to call all bad or destructive behavior, "addictive," so that "addicts" of whatever kind are helpless victims of forces beyond their control. A woman gambles because she cannot help it. A man drinks because he cannot help it. A woman shops because she cannot help it. A man throws himself into internet pornography because he cannot help it. Addicts, helpless victims, one and all.

The obvious problem with this view is that it entirely destroys morality by denying the possibility of good, freely-chosen action. We should call them what they really are: sinful habits. Or we could use the more exact and compact word, vices


Is There a Solution

Absolutely! This is the guarantee of scripture: “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Phil. 4:13). However, some Christians have convinced themselves that this is not possible.

They have made so many unsuccessful attempts to overcome their habits that they have resigned themselves to failure. They have defeated themselves even before they begin.

It looks like, in essence, you are not trusting Christ to give you victory over sin. You might try to completely surrender to Him and allow Him to crucify your sinful habits on the cross. Death to sin is the way to go. Paul said that we are to Recogn ourselves dead to sin. We can only get there by dying to sin. It is a daily chore.


Ken

 

[Bluelion]

If we follow this line of reasoning out to its logical conclusion, then it would be logical to call all bad or destructive behavior, "addictive," so that "addicts" of whatever kind are helpless victims of forces beyond their control. A woman gambles because she cannot help it. A man drinks because he cannot help it. A woman shops because she cannot help it. A man throws himself into internet pornography because he cannot help it. Addicts, helpless victims, one and all.

The obvious problem with this view is that it entirely destroys morality by denying the possibility of good, freely-chosen action. We should call them what they really are: sinful habits. Or we could use the more exact and compact word, vices


Is There a Solution

Absolutely! This is the guarantee of scripture: “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Phil. 4:13). However, some Christians have convinced themselves that this is not possible.

They have made so many unsuccessful attempts to overcome their habits that they have resigned themselves to failure. They have defeated themselves even before they begin.

It looks like, in essence, you are not trusting Christ to give you victory over sin. You might try to completely surrender to Him and allow Him to crucify your sinful habits on the cross. Death to sin is the way to go. Paul said that we are to Recogn ourselves dead to sin. We can only get there by dying to sin. It is a daily chore.


Ken

I see you don't understand the difference between addiction and bad behavior. The very nature of what make the addiction is a person does not want to do what they do. The are not helpless victims or really victims they got their self into the hole but now their is not rope to get out. You can't say to a person they are not following God if they fall to temptation or have a behavior they can not stop. Like i said addiction is the spirit of satan. I have completely surrender to God. I could not surrender any more. Your thinking is not right for you your self said you sin, so are you not trusting God? I suspect your lack of understanding with people with addiction is because you have never dealt with it. I hold a degree in human services so i have a bit a of formal training. Often the people who end up addicted to stuff have had horrible child life. What is need with them is compassion, not condemnation that they must not be right with Christ or doing something wrong. The powers they go up against are in the heavens, prayers are what are need for these people.

 

[Alithis]

but not once did i ever use the term addiction to excuse my self at any time in my life .. i said to the lord please forgive me for MY sin .please help me to walk in the freedom that you won for me on the cross .and he has and is teaching me to do so .
the more i realize the freedom i have ..one might say .. the more i can sin because of the grace of God .. but in my heart i was so overwhelmed in self hatred and loathing that the lifting of the burden of it has had quite the opposite effect .. i am free to do what ever ..but in gratitude and love for my Jesus who freed me i only desire to do my best and NOT return .. there for my spirit is freed to agree with Gods Spirit and i abide in him and him in me .. his blood washes us from all sin and in that moment we are indeed as Christ .. without sin .. if it were not so we can never come before the throne of God boldly
am i without the propensity to sin ..? no .
but also having been set free i am not without the propensity to obey the Holy Spirit either .. and it is not rule of law but the love of God being(ongoing) perfected in me that causes me to desire good more then evil and my flesh is brought under subjection by the love of Christ and by me loving Christ more then it .(and they loved not their lives unto the death) .

the enemy uses the law to condemn us for that propensity to sin in our flesh .. the Holy spirit by the word of God, written and spoken, makes us aware of the difference between the will of the spirit and the will of the flesh .. but the propensity of our flesh to sin -the evil desire of our flesh ..is not sin -it is the will toward it . and if we do not obey the felsh then the accusation of the enemy is false . we cannot be judged by the law nor condemned by the law because we are dead in Christ and no longer governed by the law and the outer man, but we are under the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus - and if we listen and obey the holy Spirit he will LEAD US (a journey) into ALL TRUTH and the truth sets us free .and we will not sin

 

[lamikin]

The world is moving towards an "if it feels good do it, just as long as you don't hurt anyone else". The problem is sin does hurt others. It is the deterioration of America, of society. What is are position as Christians? Do we preach the truth it is a sin. That makes people hate us. No one likes to be told what they are doing is wrong, or they can not do it. God tells us to preach the truth, not to follow this world, but to follow God. Solomon said everything in this world has been done already, and that was like 3000 years ago.

I had a friend preaching that Christians do not get to make laws in this country in regards to gay marriage. I said that is fine but do not expect God to bless America then. she said wow. She was shocked that she could not live how she wanted to live, she could not make her own rules and still receive Gods blessing. It reminded me of a spoiled child who does not get there way. That is what the world is coming to spoiled children.

In this country we pushed God out of schools, out of government which was founded on the Bible, and out of every part of are lives, yet people still want Gods blessing, they say what went wrong? Gee I wonder.

I do not preach condemnation, but I do preach repent and turn to Jesus. I know we will still struggle with sin but if we have Jesus we will be saved. So are christian to catch up with the times, follow the world and not God, and endorse immorality, or are we to be a light to the world as Jesus said?

America has been in the "if it feels good do it, just as long as you don't hurt anyone else" stage since the "60's.

 

[pilgrim42]

I see you don't understand the difference between addiction and bad behavior. The very nature of what make the addiction is a person does not want to do what they do. The are not helpless victims or really victims they got their self into the hole but now their is not rope to get out. You can't say to a person they are not following God if they fall to temptation or have a behavior they can not stop. Like i said addiction is the spirit of satan. I have completely surrender to God. I could not surrender any more. Your thinking is not right for you your self said you sin, so are you not trusting God? I suspect your lack of understanding with people with addiction is because you have never dealt with it. I hold a degree in human services so i have a bit a of formal training. Often the people who end up addicted to stuff have had horrible child life. What is need with them is compassion, not condemnation that they must not be right with Christ or doing something wrong. The powers they go up against are in the heavens, prayers are what are need for these people.

Somehow, I think we have a breakdown in communication. I agree that addicts do not want to be addicts. Some of them may want to drink (for instance) but they would like to stop being addicted to it. I do understand addiction because I am a specialist and have worked with them for over 15 years. Many addicts don't want to face the fact that they are addicted and continue to live in denial. Step one encourages them to admit that they are powerless over their addiction. It also implies that they have to surrender to God. Their way hasn't worked, so they need to try something different. I won't go through all the steps of AA but you and I both know that this is a spiritual warfare. Without God's help they will remain stuck in their problem.

When I was speaking about sin I was really thinking about the practice of sin. Christians don't continue to practice sin. Rare slip ups are possible. We can fall off the wagon, so to speak, but we ask for forgiveness and move forward. Addicts cannot continue practicing their addiction. I've known a ton of them who have been sober for years and have never slipped. Don't get me wrong. I know that addiction doesn't just go away, but that doesn't mean that we have to surrender to it. God has the power to enable the powerless.

You are right about condemnation. That just doesn't work. Most of them do enough of that to themselves, and don't need help from others. Compassion is much better. This doesn't mean that their aren't consequences for behavior. We all suffer that problem.

Ken

 

[Bluelion]

Somehow, I think we have a breakdown in communication. I agree that addicts do not want to be addicts. Some of them may want to drink (for instance) but they would like to stop being addicted to it. I do understand addiction because I am a specialist and have worked with them for over 15 years. Many addicts don't want to face the fact that they are addicted and continue to live in denial. Step one encourages them to admit that they are powerless over their addiction. It also implies that they have to surrender to God. Their way hasn't worked, so they need to try something different. I won't go through all the steps of AA but you and I both know that this is a spiritual warfare. Without God's help they will remain stuck in their problem.

When I was speaking about sin I was really thinking about the practice of sin. Christians don't continue to practice sin. Rare slip ups are possible. We can fall off the wagon, so to speak, but we ask for forgiveness and move forward. Addicts cannot continue practicing their addiction. I've known a ton of them who have been sober for years and have never slipped. Don't get me wrong. I know that addiction doesn't just go away, but that doesn't mean that we have to surrender to it. God has the power to enable the powerless.

You are right about condemnation. That just doesn't work. Most of them do enough of that to themselves, and don't need help from others. Compassion is much better. This doesn't mean that their aren't consequences for behavior. We all suffer that problem.

Ken

I agree completely. I am glad we found some common ground

 

[RC21]

I do not want to condemn someone for not following their beliefs or actions. I also see many replacing God with self satisfaction and it saddens and confuses me at the same time. When I see someone doing something I know does not serve God, I always hear the words "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I know that as believers we are commanded not to judge or we will be judged. Some people would love to follow God if they could pick and choose what values they will follow and what values they want to bring with them.

 

[Bluelion]

I do not want to condemn someone for not following their beliefs or actions. I also see many replacing God with self satisfaction and it saddens and confuses me at the same time. When I see someone doing something I know does not serve God, I always hear the words "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I know that as believers we are commanded not to judge or we will be judged. Some people would love to follow God if they could pick and choose what values they will follow and what values they want to bring with them.

The Bibles says we are to be a light to the world and call people to God. It does not say stand by and watch sin and say well I don't judge.

Let him with out sin cast the first stone. They were going to stone the woman to death in acting punishment. Jesus said let me deal with the punishment because we are not with out sin. That is what it means.

I was saying we have a responsibility to call out people when they sin, no one is condemning any one , but calling them to repent. Big difference.

You misunderstand the call to repent as condemnation.

 

[Alithis]

The Bibles says we are to be a light to the world and call people to God. It does not say stand by and watch sin and say well I don't judge.

Let him with out sin cast the first stone. They were going to stone the woman to death in acting punishment. Jesus said let me deal with the punishment because we are not with out sin. That is what it means.

I was saying we have a responsibility to call out people when they sin, no one is condemning any one , but calling them to repent. Big difference.

You misunderstand the call to repent as condemnation.

i agree , too many see the revealing of sin .. as judgement .it is not . to have the error of ones ways exposed ,gives opportunity for repentance .
and in truth - those who truly love the light come to the light for that very reason ..to be exposed and receive forgiveness and cleansing . those that prefer to remain in their evil ..avoid the light as the light (Jesus) exposes their deepness that they are wicked .