The New Heavens and the New Earth

[Achichem]

Colossians, Colossians, Colossians,

Yet to answer my question, is there a reason? Or do you just like saying I useevasion, well clearly demonstrating it in yourself.

BTW: What did I tell you about calling me a SDA, is it that hard to say UCG?

1.Sinners will exist.
Not for long.
Why on a new earth?
No there will not be sinners on the new earth, because the sinners will be cleaned out with something called the second death or burning out of existence. See my thread on: Discussion: on what happens after death?

http://www.christianforums.com/t57456

Posts #1 and #2.


3. Why people will have sex and babies.
I ask you why not:


Why on a new earth?

People will have babies because God likes babies.

Genesis 1:28,NKJV:

Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

How do I know there still will be babies? Because the Lord says we are to have children in this prophecy.

Isaiah 65:23, NKJV:

They shall not labour in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.

4.Why death will exist.
Not death, second death, burned out of existence, and it wil not for those who live in the new Jerusalem.


Speaks quite plainly about the death of human beings, and not this your SDA anihilation doctrine.

First of all this is not SDA! Second, the second death is very real! If you want to prove heaven and hell over this then fine, but you would need to refute many biblical quotes, which speak quite clear.

Discussion: on what happens after death?
http://www.christianforums.com/t57456
Posts #1 and #2

Approps then would be a conclusion as to how these new heavens and new earth are any better than the current, and whether we will eventually need a new New Heavens and a new New Earth.
LOL,LOL,LOL, Sorry but that is a really funny statement to me.
Not as funny as your evasion of it.
I am laughing because God is going to live among us! And you are saying I am using evasion. What am I evading? That fact that I do not think we are going to need a New earth when we live with Our God?


Now let me get to your verse: that is right the whole verse not just one part of it.

Isaiah 65:20, NKJV:

"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

These last two lines serve to high light the topic that is the first two verse.

Your argument could be argued if this prophecy stood on its own, and ever that would be weak because:

21-22:

They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Which in combination with the rest of scripture, at least to me means eternal life. However what you say could be construed and so I see where you coming from. Yet the prophecy does not stand on its own, it clearly is Revelation 21, and if that is what you want to argue, then please present this. However in till you can prove that wrong, I am afraid your position is without merit.

God bless,
Datsar

 

[Colossians]

Datsar,

No there will not be sinners on the new earth,
No? "..the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed"? Sounds like a sinner to me!

3. Why people will have sex and babies.
I ask you why not:
So Mr and Mrs Joe Bock just got married on the old earth and are on their honey-moon when God decides to destroy the old earth. God then picks up Mr and Mrs Bock (so they wont be destroyed with the old earth), destroys the old earth, and then puts them down on the new earth with the advice: "you may continue where you left off".

Why on a new earth?
People will have babies because God likes babies.
But why the need for a new earth to have babies? What's wrong with having them on the old earth?

 

[Colossians]

Of course what many seem to be confused by (except those who concoct non-Christian Sci-fi theories) is the fact that scripture describes the New Heavens and the New Earth as a realm almost identical to the present:
Sinners, working, death, eating, having babies, building houses, etc.

Now these things I have shown are metaphorical and are fufilled in Christ Jesus, who has fulfilled the prophets as he said he came to do. (And my opener gives a bountiful list of supporting scripture to this fulfillment.)

Jesus said to us "I go to prepare a place for you", so there is no need to build houses. And this 'place' is a dwelling in Christ in the Spirit. Our home is in heaven now (although we see through the glass darkly) and it will never change: our home is always in Heaven.

The "New Heavens and the New Earth" are yet another prophecy given us in what Numbers 12 describes as "dark and mystic speech", which speech we are told in same chapter is characteristic of the prophets.

The prophets had not received what the post cross church has received: revelation of who Christ is, and what he has done. In fact, it could not even be imagined. So their description of the new domain in which we exist is encouched by the Holy Spirit in Jewish type..

The New Heavens and the New Earth are simply our wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ, who has become all things to us. It is the new domain in which we exist, where we "have been seated in heavenly places".

 

[Achichem]

Colossians,

If you are not even going to answer my question then I do not see why we should continue this discussion.



No there will not be sinners on the new earth,
No? "..the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed"? Sounds like a sinner to me!
Ok watch close:

Sinner => Christ’s kingdom = Sinner finds truth => Sinner rejects truth lives in sin => cursed = Second death = No more sinner, sinner out of existence => No more sinners and world a new.

Yes I know you dis-agree so no need to respond inless you have a question on the matter.

Colossians]Of course what many seem to be confused by (except those who concoct non-Christian Sci-fi theories) is the fact that scripture describes the New Heavens and the New Earth as a realm almost identical to the present:
Sinners, working, death, eating, having babies, building houses, etc.

No, there is no death and no there are no sinners, who were burned out of existence in the second death, this is said many times in the New and Old Testament. If you would just be willing to either dispute my clam (same as Revelation 21), or accept it, we could actually make some progress. Otherwise, if your not willing to be questioned, then keep your ideas to yourself and stop teaching, because clearly you are not yet ready to present them,yet.



[quote=Colossians] Now these things I have shown are metaphorical and are fulfilled in Christ Jesus, who has fulfilled the prophets as he said he came to do. (And my opener gives a bountiful list of supporting scripture to this fulfillment.)[/quote]

That is why John gives us the same prophecy with more detail, after Jesus death and resurrection.

Jesus said to us "I go to prepare a place for you", so there is no need to build houses. And this 'place' is a dwelling in Christ in the Spirit. Our home is in heaven now (although we see through the glass darkly) and it will never change: our home is always in Heaven.

Ok, I get where that is coming from,



But



Like I said before, if you wish to think differently, fine

If you want to discuss, your opinion in accordance to the bible, then please explain why you think this is talking about a different thing then Revelation 21.

The "New Heavens and the New Earth" are yet another prophecy given us in what Numbers 12 describes as "dark and mystic speech", which speech we are told in same chapter is characteristic of the prophets.

I get what your trying to say, but that is a big leap, it says it talks to them in visions and dreams, which he calls dark speak. Which do in fact use metaphors, however that does not necessary mean anything in this case, especially when the same (similar yet more detailed) vision was given to John in Revelation 21.



Also this holds even less ground, considering Isaiah did presumably (thus says the Lord) talk to God via vocal, which is closer in type to the contrast in that statement, which was Gods direct communication with Moses.

The prophets had not received what the post cross church has received: revelation of who Christ is, and what he has done. In fact, it could not even be imagined. So their description of the new domain in which we exist is encouched by the Holy Spirit in Jewish type..

Once again can only hold ground if you could prove that this same prophecy was not talking about the same thing as John in Revelation 21.Which you have yet to.

The New Heavens and the New Earth are simply our wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ, who has become all things to us. It is the new domain in which we exist, where we "have been seated in heavenly places".

Ok then, please explain the New heavens and the New earth mention in Johns Revelation

 

[Colossians]

No there will not be sinners on the new earth,
No? "..the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed"? Sounds like a sinner to me!
Ok watch close:
Sinner => Christ’s kingdom = Sinner finds truth => Sinner rejects truth lives in sin => cursed = Second death = No more sinner, sinner out of existence => No more sinners and world a new.
Watch even closer: "..the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed" Did you notice the word "sinner"?

please explain the New heavens and the New earth mention in Johns Revelation.
They are the same ones as in Isaiah. You can only have one set of a New Heavens and a New Earth.

 

[Achichem]

They[Revelation 21] are the same ones as in Isaiah[Isaiah 65]. You can only have one set of a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Ok agreement; now let us work with this.

Ok so let me just try and clarify how I should be looking at your proposal,

The New Heavens and the New Earth are simply our wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ, who has become all things to us. It is the new domain in which we exist, where we "have been seated in heavenly places".

Ok so you are saying that these prophecies are metaphorical and represent something we in relation to our relationship with God.

Ok, well we can explore that.

Study 1:

"For behold I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered nor come into mind.?

Side one:
Fulfilled and is metaphorical:
Support:
- If any man be in Christ, He is a new Creature, the old is passed away, behold the new is come
- Forgetting what is behind, and pressing forward to what lies ahead...
- It is no longer I that live, but Christ.
- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Christ
- that we should serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Rebuttal from side two, not fulfilled and literal:

2 Peter 3:13, NKJV:
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Its sense is of a continual looking, a continual perceiving, which will culminate in the veil of the flesh being taken away, resulting in a full seeing.
It is not speaking merely of a looking forward, but a looking forward based upon what one is already seeing of it. And this is how we are to understand Christ's fulfillment of prophecy, for as He says of Himself, "who was, and is, and is to come".

I would respond:

2 Peter 3:10-13, NKJV:
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The passage clearly comes in the context of a future tense, so it would be odd to apply it to a present tense. However I agree this is not enough evidence to void your theory.

Here is another place where the ?New heavens and new earth? are mentioned in Isaiah

Isaiah 66:22-24, NKJV:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
"So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
"And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Certainly not very telling, however we do get that all alive on this New earth/heavens will look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against God who will be in an eternal fire. I am guessing you hold to a ?hell of a person? and that is how you see this passage. That is why it neither helps or defeats either theory, so we must then look farther.

* Note that ?heavens? can mean sky, universe, or those two and Gods home.
So when they say new heavens they are not necessarily saying Gods home heaven. *

Revelation 21:1
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Past tense must be notice, which does in fact mean that this was the exact time when this happened, which once again neither helps or defeats either theory.

However it also says:
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away
That would indicate that the new earth and new heaven happen when the old earth passed away. That then is are only lead to the time in which this took place.

Yet, Also there was no more sea.
This indicates to us that there was no sea, at the time just after this change.
Does the sea also have metaphoric value? If so explain?

No more can be talk from any more passage of Revelation 21, as it does not indicate the next events took place at the time of change.

2 Corinthians 5:17,NKJV:
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

So from this statement as a summary for your evidence. It cannot be construed either way, to any definite degree, based soul on the new earth and new heavens.

What have we gotten from this brief study?
- Something is new, and something old passed away. 2 Cor. 5:17
- The new heaven and new earth need to come with a pasting away of the old earth and old heaven. Rev. 21:1
- There is no more sea at the time of change. Rev 21:1
- At some point in time we will look upon the corpses of those who transgress against God that are in an eternal fire. Isaiah 66:22-24
- -look for a new heavens and new earth 2 Peter 3:10-13


So far I would say, your metaphoric interpretation is quite likely and in so it is quite likely that the new heavens and New Earth are metaphoric. On the stipulation that there is also a metaphoric relationship to there was no more sea. (We continue the study on this topic of the new heavens and new earth, literal or metaphoric, after you give the answer to the question:

Does the sea also have metaphoric value? If so explain?

 

[Achichem]

Study 2:

"For behold I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying:?

Side one:
Fulfilled and is metaphorical:
Support:
- But ye have come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..
- I have come that ye might have life, and have it more abundantly
- And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves
- And the disciples we filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost
- And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost
- these things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
- ye rejoice, with joy unspeakable and full of glory
- Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice
- But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Rebuttal from side two, not fulfilled and literal:

Revelation 21:2-4,NKJV:
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Now it is clear that this event happen at the same time, and thus is in parallel to all on John?s vision of revelation 21.

So then the stipulation of this event having been fulfilled is
- New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven
- Former things have passed away
- The tabernacle of God is with men
- He will dwell with them

I understand you think the tabernacle is with us, so need to explain that.
I understand since you think the spirit is God, how you think he dwells with us.
I understand how you thing the Former things have passed away.
But how do you explain New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven?

Continuing along in the vision, gives us our answer:

Revelation 21:5-8, NKJV:
Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
And He said to me, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes I shall give him these things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Wait watch this is a future tense, which would show us that these things are different then the things that just took place.
Hence one should then see that the events of could in fact be happening right now, instead of going to happen. Thus the stipulation of the event of ?And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.",
New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death are not really tied to this event as it may at first seem, but rather are an event unto them selves.

Further proof can be found in the fact that the next part of the vision tells us, he looked upon the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. Even after it says of that all these things. So it would then be construed that these things would be set to happen after the establishing of New Jerusalem on the new earth.

So now, what has one figured out, that in fact the coming of the new earth/new heavens does not in and definite way, do another thing then make things a new. The event description in revaluations about the glory of this establishment take place in an event soon after but not necessarily right after the new earth/new heavens.

Now we know that about revelation what about Isaiah:

First let start with
Isaiah 66:22-24, which is easy, it explains the second death in more detail and a few other deatils, and from so we would see that this is tied into the second event and not the first event which is the making new.

Now onto Isaiah 65:

Isaiah 65:18-19,NKJV:
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

This is tied into And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.
And so it should be concluded that this is tied into the same event as its parallel. So we know this is tied to the second event. Thus even if you proved that it is likely that we are in the new heavens and the new earth, one could still not include this which is an event tied into Gods promise, that the righteous shall inherit this and others the second death.

Isaiah 65: 20,NKJV:
"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

This has been one you have used before to try and prove that there shall still be death in the new earth, which not only is in conflicted with a statement made in its parallel(there shall be no more death) but if this happens on this earth post new earth post events then please explain why: infants do live but a few days, old man do live who have not fulfilled his days. Clearly this is talking after the events, which are separate form the new earth theory.


I think I will stop here, and wait for you to answer and attempt to point out error, that I have made so far.

God bless,
Datsar

 

[Colossians]

Datsar

Isaiah 66:22-24, NKJV:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
This is witness to Heb 12:26-28: "that those things which cannot be shaken may remain". It speaks of the Kingdom of God as a spiritual immoveable entity. Thus "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

"So shall your descendants and your name remain.
Ditto, but now focussing more pointedly on the spiritual seed.

we do get that all alive on this New earth/heavens will look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against God who will be in an eternal fire.
The transgressors of vs 24 is a reiteration of the accursed sinner of Is 65:20.

However it also says: for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. That would indicate that the new earth and new heaven happen when the old earth passed away.
A common error of those who read prophecy is to try to delimit it by time. Spiritual things are primarily causal, not temporal. For example, we have "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", and the consequent salvation of the OT saints before the actual (temporal) event of the cross.
You must keep mind John is speaking from the viewpoint of causality, not temporality. He is looking at a picture which speaks to state, not sequence. It is a picture which spans all time, and holds true for all those in Christ across the ages (imputing all with equal benefit, regardless of epoch). The one difference now (at time of John's picture) is that the mystery was now revealed (and that primarily through Paul's teaching).

Yet, Also there was no more sea. This indicates to us that there was no sea, at the time just after this change. Does the sea also have metaphoric value? If so explain?
The sea speaks to that which has engulfed men in fear throughout the ages, that which is more powerful than any man, that which has sunk man's greatest achievements, that which is limiting of man's life/domain, that which is perilous, that which is dark and treacherous. It's erradication in John's picture speaks to our eternal security in Christ: assurance of salvation, assurance of abundant life, irrevocable peace of mind which contains no fear, and nothing to look back at in peril.
A good passage here to look at is Psalm 107.
Also note: "Thou art my hiding place".

At some point in time we will look upon the corpses of those who transgress against God that are in an eternal fire. Isaiah 66:22-24
Again simply metaphor, using the OT language/events (Israel warred in the flesh) to describe (in dark/hidden speech) our authority and victory in Christ.
NT witness: "We've been made more than conqerors".
Nt delimitation: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against prinicipalities and powers..in high places....etc"

Revelation 21:2-4,NKJV:
But how do you explain New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven?
The answer is in verse 9 and 10, where the angel says to John:
"Come, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
The New Jerusalem is thus the figure used for the Body of Christ.
NT witness: "But ye have come to .. the heavenly Jerusalem" Heb 12:22.
NT witness: "But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all" Gal 4:26.

Wait watch this is a future tense,
Again, try to ignore tense. John is speaking from an "all at once and continuing" aspect. In similar fashion we say, "I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved".
And Revelation is itself introduced by Him "who was, and is, and is to come". Thus the understanding of the book, which chapter one also declares to be signified to us (and "to signify" means "to communicate in signs and symbols"), is that the prophecies therein were, and are, and are to come.
In direct accord with this, it declares a very important thing: "The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy". Thus it is this Jesus Christ's 'wasing', and 'ising', and 'ising to come', that the prophecy is declaring. So it is actually primarily revealing Christ, and not events.
As an aside: Tenses can be deceiving. For example, I can use the past tense to mean the future, as in "If I had a dollar, I would buy a paper". Or I can put the future in the past, by saying "Each day I would get up and drag myself to work".

Isaiah 65: 20,NKJV:
"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
This has been one you have used before to try and prove that there shall still be death in the new earth,
On the contrary, I was forcing you to a conclusion that the passage cannot be taken literally. You did not take the hint.
The New Heavens and the New Earth are a spiritual state in Christ. The talk of sinners existing in it, and people living, having children and dying, is not to be taken in a physical sense (there is no use creating a new domain with old 'habits'), but is fufilled in our authority, joy, compensation, victory, overcoming etc, in Christ, as I have indicated with the NT verses.
The accursedness of sinners is declared as an amplifier of the righteousness in Christ, using comparison as the tool to do so - (a bit like today's pop songs, where a singer often expresses love for the beloved by way of describing what it would feel like to lose the beloved.)
And this accursedness of sinners is paralleled in Rev 21:27, where it is declared that no-one unclean shall enter the gates of Jerusalem, meaning to say that nothing which is not washed by the blood of Christ shall enter into communion with the Body of Christ. And it is also paralleled in events such as the death of Annanias and Saphira, who sinned against the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 65 is Jewish OT-style figures of something the prophets could not even imagine (for the physical Israel had been theretofor the 'people of God') and the idea of a universal Body of Christ stretching from Katmandu to Capetown was simply incongrous with a domain where the primary battle was not against principalities and powers of darkness, but in the flesh, and against other human beings.