The New Covenant

[The Liturgist]

Scripture taught this in Romans 11, see especially Romans 11:25-28

Not quite. What St. Paul is saying is that from Israel came salvation in Christ, and through Christ Israel, like the Gentiles, can obtain salvation in equal terms (see Galatians 3). And many did, with there being especially large numbers of ethnic Jews in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Melkite Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and the Chaldean Catholic Church, and among the St. Thomas Christians of Malankara, India. And the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Churches, and the Ethiopian Catholic Church, are almost entirely of Jewish descent, being closely related to the Beta Israel, the Ethiopic Jews, in nearly every way.

No one is saved except through Christ, however.

 

[Guojing]

Not quite. What St. Paul is saying is that from Israel came salvation in Christ, and through Christ Israel, like the Gentiles, can obtain salvation in equal terms (see Galatians 3). And many did, with there being especially large numbers of ethnic Jews in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, Melkite Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and the Chaldean Catholic Church, and among the St. Thomas Christians of Malankara, India. And the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Churches, and the Ethiopian Catholic Church, are almost entirely of Jewish descent, being closely related to the Beta Israel, the Ethiopic Jews, in nearly every way.

No one is saved except through Christ, however.

I am not saying Romans 11:25-28 is saying that Israel will be saved without Christ in the end.

At the end of the Tribulation, the nation will accept Christ as their Messiah, that is when Christ will return to save them (Matthew 23:39)

 

[The Liturgist]

I am not saying Romans 11:25-28 is saying that Israel will be saved without Christ in the end.

At the end of the Tribulation, the nation will accept Christ as their Messiah, that is when Christ will return to save them (Matthew 23:39)

Ok, that makes more sense.

However it is worth noting that, if we count the 40 million Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, the 10 Million St. Thomas Christians, the 5 million or so Syriac, Assyrian and Chaldean Christians, and another 5 million for Antiochian and Melkite Christians of Jewish descent, and another 5 million for ethnically Jewish members of all other denominations, I think we can make the case that most Jews did accept Christ, so the hold outs are a slim minority.

 

[Guojing]

Ok, that makes more sense.

However it is worth noting that, if we count the 40 million Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, the 10 Million St. Thomas Christians, the 5 million or so Syriac, Assyrian and Chaldean Christians, and another 5 million for Antiochian and Melkite Christians of Jewish descent, and another 5 million for ethnically Jewish members of all other denominations, I think we can make the case that most Jews did accept Christ, so the hold outs are a slim minority.

Yes, all Jews who believe like us now, that Christ died for their sins and rose again on the 3rd day for their justification (romans 4:25), are also in the Body of Christ.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentiles. But the nation of Israel will still have a future destiny with Christ, during the Tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not saying Romans 11:25-28 is saying that Israel will be saved without Christ in the end.

At the end of the Tribulation, the nation will accept Christ as their Messiah, that is when Christ will return to save them (Matthew 23:39)

Why does only one generation get to accept Christ and be saved? What about all the previous generations who died rejecting Christ as Messiah?

 

[Guojing]

Why does only one generation get to accept Christ and be saved? What about all the previous generations who died rejecting Christ as Messiah?

Well, the previous generations, for example those leaders in Acts 7, rejected Christ out of their own free will.

Would you agree with that?

 

[ewq1938]

Well, the previous generations, for example those leaders in Acts 7, rejected Christ out of their own free will.

Would you agree with that?

Sure. Still, why only save the last generation, the ones alive when Christ returns? Isn't that a tiny percentage of all those who were born of Israel since the days of Christ?

 

[Guojing]

Sure. Still, why only save the last generation, the ones alive when Christ returns? Isn't that a tiny percentage of all those who were born of Israel since the days of Christ?

So my point is that, at all times, there is no injustice involved when Jews from Israel are concerned.

Those Jews before Acts 7 had the choice to accept Christ as their Messiah or to reject, to be part of true Israel.

Those Jews after Acts 7 have the choice, like the rest of us gentiles, to accept Christ's death burial resurrection as justification for their sins (Romans 4:25), to become part of the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile (Romans 11:11).

Those Jews during the Tribulation have the choice, to stay faithful and endure to the end (Matthew 24:13), to be part of true Israel.

 

[chad kincham]

Interesting that you took care to note, twice, that the New Covenant was only meant for Israel and not us gentiles.

So the question people will ask is, are we gentiles in the Body of Christ under the New Covenant too? Why and why not?

See Romans 11 - we gentiles are the wild branches grafted in to the Jewish Olive tree, am8ng the natural branches, by our faith in the Messiah Y’eshua/Jesus:

Rom 11:17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."

Rom 11:20 That's right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in.

Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!

It’s a good idea to read all of Romans 11.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Guojing]

See Romans 11 - we gentiles are the wild branches grafted in to the Jewish Olive tree, am8ng the natural branches, by our faith in the Messiah Y’eshua/Jesus:

Rom 11:17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."

Rom 11:20 That's right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in.

Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!

It’s a good idea to read all of Romans 11.

Shalom Aleichem

So are you saying you also subscribed to Fulfillment Theology, as I have stated in page 1 of this thread?

 

[chad kincham]

The Old Covenant was a covenant of flesh, in that God gave the commands and ordinances and humans were expected to follow them. We were born in original sin, and this results in a condition known as concupiscence. We have a innate desire for sin, which can only be cleansed by grace. Mortal sin is cleansed by blood, concupiscence is cleansed by grace.
But for the grace of God, we would remain in our sins, but by His grace we are saved.
The old covenant was given to men that were not born of spirit, but of flesh. The promises were perfect and not made more perfect by the New Covenant, but man cannot fulfill the law of God in his flesh. Unless we are born of water and the spirit, we cannot see the kingdom of God.
The New covenant was prophesied in Ezekiel

[26] And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them.

As Christians, the law was not done away with, and we do not ignore its precepts. We are empowered to obey the law by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.
It is not some future date where we will be cleansed of sin. Now is the time today is the day of salvation.
We do not preach sinless perfectionism here, but there is no excuse for a person that claims to be a Christian to remain in a state of mortal sin, or as John puts it a sin unto death. We preach repentance. Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments
If we do practice mortal sin, the we need to cry out to God for deliverance. He will hear and cleanse you from that sin. You just have to ask, ask again and keep on asking.
As a Catholic, I eat the flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the sacrifice of the Mass. This cleanses of venial sin and decreases concupiscence or desire for sin.
If I fall into mortal sin, there is the sacrament of Penance to restore my soul to sanctifying grace

The Old Covenant merely proclaimed the law, the New Covenant actually empowers souls to obey it, as the prophesy of Ezekiel states

The law was given to, and still in effect for, unregenerate and carnal people who don’t have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Christians have died to the law, which had man imprisoned by it, until Jesus brought us the new covenant, founded on better promises - because they have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[chad kincham]

So are you saying you also subscribed to Fulfillment Theology, as I have stated in page 1 of this thread?

The deal is, the better promises are from God, they have nothing to do with promises Israel made.

The only promise they had to make, was to obey it and perform it down to the least jot and tittle.

God ended that covenant when He divorced Israel for spiritual adultery of their sins, in Jeremiah 3:8.

Believers today are married to another, who is Jesus.

The first covenant marriage was with the Father, the new covenant marriage is with Jesus.

Therefore the new covenant isn’t the old one recycled, in any way.

The covenant given on Mount Sinai is bondage, Galatians 4:21-31, so it’s a good thing the new covenant isn’t the old one with a new paint job.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Guojing]

The deal is, the better promises are from God, they have nothing to do with promises Israel made.

The only promise they had to make, was to obey it and perform it down to the least jot and tittle.

God ended that covenant when He divorced Israel for spiritual adultery of their sins, in Jeremiah 3:8.

Believers today are married to another, who is Jesus.

The first covenant marriage was with the Father, the new covenant marriage is with Jesus.

Therefore the new covenant isn’t the old one recycled, in any way.

The covenant given on Mount Sinai is bondage, Galatians 4:21-31, so it’s a good thing the new covenant isn’t the old one with a new paint job.

Shalom Aleichem

Let me make my question clearer.

When Hebrews 8:8 said that God will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, do you consider yourself as a member of either of the 2 houses?

 

[chad kincham]

Let me make my question clearer.

When Hebrews 8:8 said that God will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, do you consider yourself as a member of either of the 2 houses?

I consider myself a gentile who’s been grafted in to the Jeremiah 31 new covenant, by faith, per Romans 11.

Rom 11:13 I am speaking to you gentiles. Because I am an apostle to the gentiles, I magnify my ministry

Rom 11:14 in the hope that I can make my people jealous and save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection results in reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance bring but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch. If the root is holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."

Rom 11:20 That's right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in.

Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!

 

[Guojing]

I consider myself a gentile who’s been grafted in to the Jeremiah 31 new covenant, by faith, per Romans 11.

Rom 11:13 I am speaking to you gentiles. Because I am an apostle to the gentiles, I magnify my ministry

Rom 11:14 in the hope that I can make my people jealous and save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection results in reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance bring but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch. If the root is holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in."

Rom 11:20 That's right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 If the Jews do not persist in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, because God is able to graft them in.

Rom 11:24 After all, if you were cut off from what is naturally a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier it will be for these natural branches to be grafted back into their own olive tree!

I am asking you whether do you consider yourself a member of either the House of Israel or the House of Judah.

Are you answering me with a yes or no? Your post did not make that clear.

 

[chad kincham]

I am asking you whether do you consider yourself a member of either the House of Israel or the House of Judah.

Are you answering me with a yes or no? Your post did not make that clear.

Yes, gentiles are spiritually Jews by being grafted on to the Israel olive tree - which includes me.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, gentiles are spiritually Jews by being grafted on to the Israel olive tree - which includes me.

Thanks for confirming.

Yep, I call that doctrine fulfillment theology, which is what covenant theologians believe in.

 

[chad kincham]

Hi chad kincham,

You responded but this time even though I simplified my response you didn't address the singular question I asked.

Here it is again:

T__ F__ Moses says that what he commanded was not too difficult to obey?

Can you acknowledge what the Bible says with this regard?

Thanks!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The law took all their time to obey.

It wasn’t too difficult to obey, in the same way that walking twenty miles to work daily isn’t too difficult to be able to do, but it would be a terrific burden.

Peter in Acts 15 calls the law of Moses a yoke of burden that neither they nor their fathers could bear, and that the gentiles who believed would not be put under its burden.

 

[chad kincham]

Hi chad kincham,

You responded but this time even though I simplified my response you didn't address the singular question I asked.

Here it is again:

T__ F__ Moses says that what he commanded was not too difficult to obey?

Can you acknowledge what the Bible says with this regard?

Thanks!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The law took all their time to obey.

It wasn’t too difficult to obey, in the same way that walking twenty miles to work daily isn’t too difficult to be able to do, but it would be a terrific burden.

Peter in Acts 15 calls the law of Moses a yoke of burden that neither they nor their fathers could bear, and that the gentiles who believed would not be put under its burden.

Paul calls the covenant given on Mount Sinai bondage.

BTW it’s the New Testament that authoritatively explains and interprets the Old Testament, not Vice versa.

 

[Icyspark]

The law took all their time to obey.

It wasn’t too difficult to obey, in the same way that walking twenty miles to work daily isn’t too difficult to be able to do, but it would be a terrific burden.

Peter in Acts 15 calls the law of Moses a yoke of burden that neither they nor their fathers could bear, and that the gentiles who believed would not be put under its burden.

Paul calls the covenant given on Mount Sinai bondage.

Hi chad kincham,

There are supposedly 613 laws in the Old Testament. But did you know that there are more than that in the New Testament. Someone came up with the number 1050!

My take on what Moses wrote about what he commanded not being too difficult is in relation to what Paul had to say about our relation to temptation. He says we are not compelled to sin. That with whatever temptation we face God provides "a way out":

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.​

Paul also acknowledges that we are not to keep on sinning that grace may abound. God forbid! he says.

BTW it’s the New Testament that authoritatively explains and interprets the Old Testament, not Vice versa.

So you believe that new prophets can authoritatively explain and interpret those who came before? How come you don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet then?

What the Bible actually teaches is that new prophets must be in agreement with those who came before.

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark