The New Covenant of Righteousness

[now faith]

It's not a limited or unlimited atonement issue.

The Bible says in more than 45 places that 'by faith', 'in faith'. That has always been the criteria for salvation.

Atonement is not the issue. Whether we need to come to Christ in faith is.

Amen,it is all about one way through Christ.
If faith were not needed then predestination would be a fact rather than a Theological
Perspective.

 

[now faith]

T - Total depravity
U - Unconditional election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the saint

Thoughts?

 

[Dwells]

Amen,it is all about one way through Christ.
If faith were not needed then predestination would be a fact rather than a Theological
Perspective.

The statement God could save a Atheist by grace alone without faith in Christ ,would make the Atonement of God in Christ unnecessary.
Even in the Old Testament Faith in God was a nessissity.
Look at Rahab and the Crimson Cord.

In The New Testament we are taught the importance of faith,here is a passage from Hebrews 11.

Hebrews: 11. 3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Does the Atheist seek God?
Does the Atheist have Faith in God even existing?
Can the Atheist please God?

Acts: 10. 34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

Romans: 2. 11. For there is no respect of persons with God.

How do we know God's will?
By reading God's Word.
If a person would assume God would change from his Word ,this is considered to be the doctrine of divine command theory.
This doctrine was promoted by Augustine of Hippo and John Calvin.
So to answer you question I do not believe in irresistible grace nor am I a Calvinist.

Calvin believed in scripture and did not invent the notion of the elect...he merely read it in the Bible itself. Such as in these passages:
Read these scriptures for example:
Isaiah 65:1 and Exodus 33:19
and:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Election,-To-Salvation

"my sheep will know my name"

 

[hhodgson]

I believe faith makes grace conditional, and God could save an atheist (unbeliever) through grace if He wanted to.

I think that by the offering of His Son as the sacrificial lamb for the sins of the whole world by His finished works on the cross was proof enough that God wanted to save not only the atheist, but ALL of mankind which has been mentioned before.

So did Christ just die for the sins of the faithful or for everyone? Do you believe in limited or unlimited atonement?

Christ's redemptive death was for (all persons). The provision is there for "whosoever" receives by... grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

 

[Dwells]

I think that by the offering of His Son as the sacrificial lamb for the sins of the whole world by His finished works on the cross was proof enough that God wanted to save not only the atheist, but ALL of mankind which has been mentioned before.



Christ's redemptive death was for (all persons). The provision is there for "whosoever" receives by... grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

I believe God's grace is unmerited with no conditions (not even faith). God is almighty and can do whatever He wants.
Paul certainly didn't come to God through his faith. God came to him.

 

[now faith]

I believe God's grace is unmerited with no conditions (not even faith). God is almighty and can do whatever He wants.
Paul certainly didn't come to God through his faith. God came to him.

Paul had faith in God,he was well educated and belonged to the San Hadrian sect.
But Paul missed God's will,In his zeal for God he denied God.
Paul believed what he was doing was righteous in the eyes of God.
Paul was wrong,along with many more like him.
But that was their belief,ironic that thinking he served God His missed God and trampled over his Grace.
On the road to Damascus Paul met our Lord our savior.
It was a act of grace by God not to kill Saul.
It was a Act of grace by God to give Paul his mission.
It was Paul's Faith that allowed him to recieve His great commission.
It was Paul's faith that allowed him to go on while being persecuted , beaten and shunned by his people.

James: 2. 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

We cannot change God's word to persue our theology.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[now faith]

Dwell:
We may have a misunderstanding in the terminologies used while we discuss this topic,possibly a lexical gap.

Here at Word Of Faith we believe it is God's will none should perish.
Yet people are dieing and going to Hell every day.
God will find the way for the Atheist or Buddhist or anyone else to accept Christ.
The gap is that salvation comes from Christ ,God with us to be accepted by faith in Him and Him alone.
God will not change or toss his work of redemption for anyone,they must believe that He is.

You are basically putting your theology in a Bible verse that has nothing to do with Calvin's view of election.

Isaiah: 65. 1. I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. 2. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; 3. A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Who are these people who have not asked for God?
It is the branches grafted in the Gentiles,continue into the context.
God is telling Isreal I have spread out my hands and they still worshiped idols.
This fulfills Abraham's covenant that God would make him the Father of many Nations.
May I suggest a King James Bible?
God's word is presented in its simplest form and reads on a 6th grade level.

 

[ToBeLoved]

T - Total depravity
U - Unconditional election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the saint

Thoughts?

Nope. Not a Calvinist. I think they have to deny certain parts of the Bible to hold to their theology.

 

[now faith]

Nope. Not a Calvinist. I think they have to deny certain parts of the Bible to hold to their theology.

I agree with you.
John 3:16 being one of the verses.
The lack of mutual understanding when it concerns the use of the Elect.
I believe they miss understand it is God's will none should perish,and the Elect are not predestined from birth ,with God forsaking others as he wills.
The Elect are those who have salvation,by Grace through faíth.

 

[Dwells]

T - Total depravity
U - Unconditional election
L - Limited atonement
I - Irresistible grace
P - Perseverance of the saint

Thoughts?

Calvin never systemized his doctrine. It was the Arminians that came up with these five points called TULIP (after Calvins death) to point out what they disagree with. If you want to summarize Arminian teaching it's the opposite of these five points of Calvinism.

 

[Dwells]

I agree with you.
John 3:16 being one of the verses.
The lack of mutual understanding when it concerns the use of the Elect.
I believe they miss understand it is God's will none should perish,and the Elect are not predestined from birth ,with God forsaking others as he wills.
The Elect are those who have salvation,by Grace through faíth.

Predestination occurs BEFORE birth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Calvin never systemized his doctrine. It was the Arminians that came up with these five points called TULIP (after Calvins death) to point out what they disagree with. If you want to summarize Arminian teaching it's the opposite of these five points of Calvinism.

Calvinists use TULIP more than non-Calvinists. I think they would get confused about who they are without the letters to help em.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Calvin believed in scripture and did not invent the notion of the elect...he merely read it in the Bible itself. Such as in these passages:
Read these scriptures for example:
Isaiah 65:1 and Exodus 33:19
and:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Election,-To-Salvation

"my sheep will know my name"

One of the main problems is limited atonement. Over and over it says in God's Word that God wants all to come to Him and that God sent His Son to die for the sins of the world. That none should perish.

Limited atonement is one way they try to figure out a formula for the Bible but it cannot reconcile with the Bible.

Then Irresistable Grace might as well be the Holy Spirit of God invading people's bodies before faith. Yet the Bible is clear, by faith, in faith. One only need to read about Adam and Eve and their disobedience to know that God gives us free will.

It's a convuluted story that in no way reconciles to the Bible. It just doesn't jive.

 

[now faith]

Calvin never systemized his doctrine. It was the Arminians that came up with these five points called TULIP (after Calvins death) to point out what they disagree with. If you want to summarize Arminian teaching it's the opposite of these five points of Calvinism.

Well I have been able to discern this far,that you are not mis guided but are a Calvinist.
My replies were based on your Christian faith icon.
So now that we have established the doctrine you are prosolizing here,what do you hope to achieve ?
I am not saying you are not a Christian,but this debate has been worn out.
Let's try a postive outlook and give God the Glory for our ability to fellowship together.

 

[now faith]

Calvinists use TULIP more than non-Calvinists. I think they would get confused about who they are without the letters to help em.

I am truly amazed that one man so many years ago,could change the perspective of so many,based on a theology that came from who he had supposedly reformed from.
Much of Calvinism is copied from Augustine a pillar in the Church of Rome.
Any man made doctrine brings God down to what man thinks he can comprehend.
Calvinism is a type of Gnostic belief system,that came out of Rome , and in many ways opposes traditional Christianity.
The orgin of Gnostic belief is a mixture of Pagan and Christian theology , with elements of teaching with sources found outside of God's Word.

 

[now faith]

There are various degrees of how people view predestination.
One would be that a person has a sin nature and no matter the circumstances the out come will be Hell.
This places the blame on the person's nature rather than God,but still inhibits free will.
The other notion is that from the beginning God purposed a human to Hell.
This is more of a Pagan philosophy that places God as a cruel being that creates life for the purpose of destroying it.
When someone is murdered they believe God purposed the murder for his reasons.
This is contrary to God's Word,and degrades the atonement of Christ.
One popular Calvinist denied the blood of Christ having purpose,and most Calvinist believe a altar call is simply a emotional outburst,where salvation was not given.
There is a lost and dying world out there that needs Evangelist , Preachers , Prophets , and Teachers.
That is our commission as the Body of Christ ,others can think what they will.


Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;

 

[hhodgson]

Predestination occurs BEFORE birth.

Actually, this occurred before the foundation of the world... "For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined" (Romans 8:29).

In most debates on this subject, It comes down to the interpretation of "foreknowledge." (the awareness of an event... before it happens.)

 

[now faith]

Actually, this occurred before the foundation of the world... "For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined" (Romans 8:29).

In most debates on this subject, It comes down to the interpretation of "foreknowledge." (the awareness of an event... before it happens.)

Yes but the language in the rest of the passage and Ephesians 1 are simple to understand.
In literature you have litary devices called connotations.

Connotation

 

[now faith]

Lol hhodgson I fell asleep before I could finish.

con·no·ta·tion
ˌkänəˈtāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning.
   "the word “discipline” has unhappy connotations of punishment and repression"
   synonyms: overtone, undertone, undercurrent, implication, hidden meaning, nuance, hint, echo, vibrations, association,intimation, suggestion, suspicion, insinuation
   "there was a connotation of distrust in his voice"
   • PHILOSOPHY
     the abstract meaning or intension of a term, which forms a principle determining which objects or concepts it applies to. Dictionary.com
   • It is Simple to discern when we see in Schripture Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the World.
   • Yes He was Predestined to redeem us from sin.
   • Yes we were predestined in Christ,it is his will that none should perish.
   • Do people die and fall to Hell ?
   • Yes
   • Why?
   • Freewill.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Actually, this occurred before the foundation of the world... "For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined" (Romans 8:29).

In most debates on this subject, It comes down to the interpretation of "foreknowledge." (the awareness of an event... before it happens.)

But God is not held to time. That is a reality on earth, not for God.

So for God it is just all. The past, present, future at once because He is all knowing. He cannot, not know.

There are a lot of things that we do not understand, like the millions of stars and planets out there. We can not bring God down to human thinking and experience. We know who God says that He is in His Word. That is who God is.

I don't know why people (and this is just IMHO) have such a hard time knowing that God is way above them and there are things we just do not know. Jesus told His disciples that He would tell them the mysteries of heaven, but they could not yet spiritually understand.

That's why I know who God is by what and who He says He is. Because that's most reliable, not us trying to figure out how God is like us. That is limiting God. Big time.