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The New Atheist - movement

cloudyday2

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I have never liked Dawkins, even when I was an atheist. His arguments betray a profound ignorance of philosophy and a deep faith in a narrow naturalistic interpretation. He covers this by rudeness and attacking speakers instead of their arguments, which is a poor debate tactic in my opinion.

I guess this is what comes from the over-specialisation in intellegentsia today, that experts in one field think they can pontificate on subjects that they are novices in. Biologists know nothing of philosophical proof or metaphysics and really should know better than to wander out of their cozy little corners where they are comfortable. They largely parade their ignorance, but general philosophic education is so poor nowadays that they get away with it. Dawkins works best with teenagers, I think.

No, Bertrand Russell was a much better Atheist thinker. His arguments had the bite and coherence that Dawkins lacks with the knowledge to back it up.

But of course, I converted to Christianity. For I discovered CS Lewis and eventually Christ and rapidly could re-evaluate Kant, Paschal, Plato etc. in light thereof. Atheism is just too light in the intellectual department as almost all the great thinkers of history were theists of one sort or another.
I have never found the philosophical arguments very persuasive - either pro or con. Philosophy seems to be kind of an intellectual game where you assume some model of reality and then define and test that model in your mind to understand it better. Philosophy is like putting an idea under a microscope, but any idea can be examined - fact or fiction. That's why I don't think philosophical arguments are particularly useful.

If you have 10 minutes, here is a clip where Daniel Dennett critiques the philosophical approach of William Lane Craig. It is similar to my own suspicions about philosophical arguments on religion:
 
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Jack of Spades

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I have never found the philosophical arguments very persuasive - either pro or con. Philosophy seems to be kind of an intellectual game where you assume some model of reality and then define and test that model in your mind to understand it better. Philosophy is like putting an idea under a microscope, but any idea can be examined - fact or fiction. That's why I don't think philosophical arguments are particularly useful.

The problem with relying on philosophy is that it's based so heavily on logic instead of evidence. Logic can be very misleading, because so many untrue things can make some logical sense.

For comparison think of murder investigation. There can be many suspects who are logically speaking as plausible, but it's the evidence of their guilt that is decisive. I think it's a basic intellectual mistake to go for the logic first and ignore the evidence, instead of first going for the evidence and then look at what logical sense it makes.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I have never found the philosophical arguments very persuasive - either pro or con. Philosophy seems to be kind of an intellectual game where you assume some model of reality and then define and test that model in your mind to understand it better. Philosophy is like putting an idea under a microscope, but any idea can be examined - fact or fiction. That's why I don't think philosophical arguments are particularly useful.
Um, Science is a form of Philosophy - a subset of Empiricism predicated on acceptance of the Realist viewpoint. So to deny philosophical argumentation you are denying any argumentation at all on this question.

This is exactly the problem. People no longer study Greek or Latin and as a consequence are not exposed to the philosophical primers that are Plato and Aristotle. In the old days when people were in school they at least developed a working knowledge of Epistemology as it was taught as background when they read Cicero or Pliny.
Now they are taught Science without being told how it truly works, where it comes from or how its findings are validated. This is like teaching people to use Calculus without first teaching them basic arithmetic and algebra.
They then think Philosophy is some other, an abtuse Shibboleth, instead of the very cornerstone upon which their world is based.
Human knowledge is profoundly uncertain, including the Sciences, which after all are based on falsification.

I am sorry, all the New Atheists largely look like fools to anyone with more than a rudimentary training in philosophy. A hundred years ago they would never have attained celebrity as people would have seen them floundering around in the deep end of the pool. Now they sit on the side and think their amateurish flourishes are the polished moves of professional swimmers. Very sad indeed.

As I said, they are no Russell, Schopenauer, Nietsche or even Lucretius. Those are Atheist Intellectuals. No, they don't dare take on the likes of Kant or Paschal, but mostly keep their attacks to modern opponents that they undermine based on rank modern ignorance. They are in essence the same type of phenomenon as Trump or UKIP or Le Pen. They use half-truths and shameless demagoguery to obfuscate discussions instead of keeping on topic. Years ago I watched Dawkins respond to a question along the lines of "what if you are wrong?". Instead of answering, he went on about the only reason they would ask it is because they grew up in a religious society etc. and that they would believe radically differently in another society etc. Loud cheers for his response, but he never answered the question and his objections to the assumptions of the questioner were specious to say the least. I shall watch your video and respond when I have the time though, but I am expecting more of the same.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The problem with relying on philosophy is that it's based so heavily on logic instead of evidence. Logic can be very misleading, because so many untrue things can make some logical sense.

For comparison think of murder investigation. There can be many suspects who are logically speaking as plausible, but it's the evidence of their guilt that is decisive. I think it's a basic intellectual mistake to go for the logic first and ignore the evidence, instead of first going for the evidence and then look at what logical sense it makes.
Empiricism is a form of philosophy and is as much based on assumptions as anything else. Besides, to negate logic and replace it with some amorphous conception of 'evidence' is cutting off the branch your sitting on if you would argue for Atheism, because it is via Induction that they come to all their conclusions. Not deduction ftom data or even abduction. Simple Induction, the same thing that Atheists are so fond of critiqueing in Christians.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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@cloudyday2 I have watched your video. This illustrates what I said nicely.
Dennett argues that Scientific statements that are counter-intuitive are acceptable because they are backed by data accrued by scientific method, but to use such an argument from other axioms is somehow less plausible. What?
He is assuming that Scientific data is accurate beyond question, he ignores basic Epistemology. For Science requires the assumptions that facts are knowable, data measurable, results repeatable, senses trustworthy, that Reality exists as presented, etc. Basically 1500 years of philosophy was required to get to the point where Scientific Method could be articulated (Grosseteste and Roger Bacon in the 1200s). So his objection that constructs built on individually reasonable axioms create massive ricketty structures is accurate, but the problem is that he is throwing stones while living in a glass house himself. He even admits that he would not attempt a formal reductio ad absurdam nor look for logical inconsistent propositions but only surmise where they may lie.
Basically he is dismissing his opponent's arguments by an false analogy between Scientific constructs and a broader Philosophic construct, secure in the knowledge that his audience will immediately accept the Scientific one based on our modern assumptions of the almost-infallibility of Scientific method. This is only possible because his audience is largely unaware how the Scientific construct was created or validated and had been taught to trust it implicitly their whole lives without question. This seems to make the one 'mind-boggling' result more plausible than the other, but this is very much not the case. Richard Bernstein adresses this very problem when discussing Cartesian Anxiety, how truth cannot be ascertained and therefore to decide which propositions are more or less plausible is largely guesswork. It is as if playing a field sport like Rugby or Soccer and we are allowed to move the goalposts and lines as we see fit - how do we then determine when and if a goal was scored? Only when the audience agrees with where the lines are painted and of course due to our modern curricula, this has largely been done, but we don't know where the lines truly lie. Basically he is not adressing his opponents arguments, but attempting to undermine the broader view from which it is derived.
It is reminiscent of Marxist dialectic in a way, a secure belief in your own thought paradigm and thus you can use it to dismiss any other without adressing their criticism.

This is exactly the type of sloppy reasoning that I object to, that feeds on ignorance to validate it.
This was only a 10m video, so perhaps I am being unfair and Dennett adressed it more fully elsewhere, but I doubt it. Modern Atheists have it easy, they jump on implicit trust in Science and this mistaken idea that something held a priori somehow invalidates an argument - while doing exactly that themselves. It just makes me more despondant on the fate of Western Civilisation when such epitomisation is judged sufficient. Such specious argumentation would not have been deemed acceptable by the 'old' atheists, who were at least intellectually honest.
 
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cloudyday2

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@cloudyday2 I have watched your video. This illustrates what I said nicely.
Dennett argues that Scientific statements that are counter-intuitive are acceptable because they are backed by data accrued by scientific method, but to use such an argument from other axioms is somehow less plausible. What?
He is assuming that Scientific data is accurate beyond question, he ignores basic Epistemology. For Science requires the assumptions that facts are knowable, data measurable, results repeatable, senses trustworthy, that Reality exists as presented, etc. Basically 1500 years of philosophy was required to get to the point where Scientific Method could be articulated (Grosseteste and Roger Bacon in the 1200s). So his objection that constructs built on individually reasonable axioms create massive ricketty structures is accurate, but the problem is that he is throwing stones while living in a glass house himself. He even admits that he would not attempt a formal reductio ad absurdam nor look for logical inconsistent propositions but only surmise where they may lie.
Basically he is dismissing his opponent's arguments by an false analogy between Scientific constructs and a broader Philosophic construct, secure in the knowledge that his audience will immediately accept the Scientific one based on our modern assumptions of the almost-infallibility of Scientific method. This is only possible because his audience is largely unaware how the Scientific construct was created or validated and had been taught to trust it implicitly their whole lives without question. This seems to make the one 'mind-boggling' result more plausible than the other, but this is very much not the case. Richard Bernstein adresses this very problem when discussing Cartesian Anxiety, how truth cannot be ascertained and therefore to decide which propositions are more or less plausible is largely guesswork. It is as if playing a field sport like Rugby or Soccer and we are allowed to move the goalposts and lines as we see fit - how do we then determine when and if a goal was scored? Only when the audience agrees with where the lines are painted and of course due to our modern curricula, this has largely been done, but we don't know where the lines truly lie. Basically he is not adressing his opponents arguments, but attempting to undermine the broader view from which it is derived.
It is reminiscent of Marxist dialectic in a way, a secure belief in your own thought paradigm and thus you can use it to dismiss any other without adressing their criticism.

This is exactly the type of sloppy reasoning that I object to, that feeds on ignorance to validate it.
This was only a 10m video, so perhaps I am being unfair and Dennett adressed it more fully elsewhere, but I doubt it. Modern Atheists have it easy, they jump on implicit trust in Science and this mistaken idea that something held a priori somehow invalidates an argument - while doing exactly that themselves. It just makes me more despondant on the fate of Western Civilisation when such epitomisation is judged sufficient. Such specious argumentation would not have been deemed acceptable by the 'old' atheists, who were at least intellectually honest.

O.k. I don't quite understand your disagreements with Dennett's remarks, but that is fine.
 
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Larniavc

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Now they are taught Science without being told how it truly works, where it comes from or how its findings are validated.
Not always true. In my psychology undergraduate days the first mandatory course I had to take was the Philosophy of Science.
 
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archer75

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@Jack of Spades , could you point me to a couple videos you find representative, either on the thread on in private? I would like to follow up on my ignorance, but I am having a little trouble sifting the YouTube results...

@cloudyday2 , thanks for the video with Dennett talking about Craig. The main point where I "disagree" with Dennett is that he seems to show way too much respect to Craig, although I guess if you're in this line of work, you kind of have to.
 
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Cearbhall

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As we all (should) know, the atheism of the 'new' atheism is nothing new, but rather it's the strong stance and the intense anti-religiousness that makes them "new".
I'm of two minds on the movement.

I'm a pretty easy-going person, and I'm also religious. So even though I'm an atheist, "new atheism" tends to make me cringe.

But when I stop and think about how much damage some religions do in the world, even apart from the law, I can get pretty feisty. People use their religions as an excuse to justify all manner of abuse and ignorance.
 
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Jack of Spades

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@Jack of Spades , could you point me to a couple videos you find representative, either on the thread on in private? I would like to follow up on my ignorance, but I am having a little trouble sifting the YouTube results...

Try some collection, for example there seems to be one called "Best of Richard Dawkins Arguments And Comebacks". There you get the highlights of what people who like Dawkins enough to make such a video, like in his ideas and style.

Dawkins is a populist so you don't get the full picture by watching only some very theoretical debates. Part of his charisma is the way how he engages in arguments with audience members, students etc. so I believe some highlights - collections are the best to get the picture. He's not just an academic, but a man on a mission who is interested in making converts of ordinary people, not unlike an evangelist. That side of the story you see when he argues with audience members.
 
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Jack of Spades

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I'm of two minds on the movement.

I'm a pretty easy-going person, and I'm also religious. So even though I'm an atheist, "new atheism" tends to make me cringe.

But when I stop and think about how much damage some religions do in the world, even apart from the law, I can get pretty feisty. People use their religions as an excuse to justify all manner of abuse and ignorance.

When the movement surfaced in Finland the impact was almost tragicomical. As people here are already pretty secular and there really isn't much of Christian privilege to speak of, the atheists came off as hostile bullies picking on the few religious people there are left. They also somehow managed to avoid addressing the worst sect in Finland, Laestadianism, had they targeted them, I'm sure I would have sympathized with the agenda.

But, in the context of some culture where religious privilege and widespread fundamentalism etc. is mainstream, I can sympathize with such approach.

I actually agree with you about the religion-related abuse. I spent a portion of my life trying to put my head together after leaving Charismatic Christianity. The topic is a pretty personal one for me.

On the other hand, I am well aware that with my fascination of mysticism, I'm a pretty bad religious nutjob myself, so I can't really get as anti-religious as I might deep down be tempted to be, or I would only shoot myself in the process... If someone goes that way, I understand them, I just wish they have some appreciation for the complexity of the topic and don't offer too easy solutions. For myself though, it's very mixed feelings.
 
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archer75

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But when I stop and think about how much damage some religions do in the world, even apart from the law, I can get pretty feisty. People use their religions as an excuse to justify all manner of abuse and ignorance.
I think feistiness is called for in matters of abuse and ignorance.

I tend to think more or less as you said: "as an excuse". Sadly, so much of what passes for religion is a bunch of cultural odds and ends + fear + agony. And the mix can be lethal, but there are plenty of non-religious "religions" to fill that slot in the recipe -- like aggressively racist views of humanity, for instance.

@Jack of Spades , I'll check out what you described. Thanks.
 
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seashale76

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Don't blame the new atheism as it's practiced by the average member you know, but find out about the original ideas ;)

Well- why not? If the new atheists are basing their views on religion as it is practiced by adherents then why shouldn't everyone else look at new atheism based on those that claim to be of that persuasion? Double standards and all...
 
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Jack of Spades

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Well- why not? If the new atheists are basing their views on religion as it is practiced by adherents then why shouldn't everyone else look at new atheism based on those that claim to be of that persuasion? Double standards and all...

In case you dind't notice, there was the wink - smiley at the end, referring to what the poster I answered to said himself.

I do agree that all the religions, ideologies and world views should be addressed as they exist and are put in practice in real life, not in the way they exist in some ideals. If that is not the approach, everyone can always neutralize all criticism by pointing to some absurdly high, unrealistic standards that only exist in theory but don't work in practice.

I've actually been thinking that way long before I even heard about new atheists.
 
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cloudyday2

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@Quid est Veritas? , I just wanted to add that when I said in post #26 that I didn't understand your disagreements with Dennett, I was not suggesting that your disagreements are unreasonable. I have never taken a philosophy class, so I simply couldn't follow what you wrote enough to either agree or disagree with you.
 
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Jack of Spades

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I think feistiness is called for in matters of abuse and ignorance.

I tend to think more or less as you said: "as an excuse".

Sadly, so much of what passes for religion is a bunch of cultural odds and ends + fear + agony. And the mix can be lethal, but there are plenty of non-religious "religions" to fill that slot in the recipe -- like aggressively racist views of humanity, for instance.

The excuse factor is one side of the story, but not the whole story.

Religions do have an impact on how people behave, sometimes in unintended ways. It's a complex topic of when a religion itself is to blame and when it's only something that could have happened in some other context too, and the religion just happened to be there.

A good example is belief in faith healing. It has a record of making some people stopping to go to a doctor, and possibly get crippled or die as a result. In such a case, the connection between the religious belief and the damage done is so obvious that one can't really blame it on anything else.

@Jack of Spades , I'll check out what you described. Thanks.

Noprob. I look forward to hearing your comments about the stuff!
 
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ViaCrucis

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I don't know enough about "new atheism" to offer anything resembling a generalized comment; but I would offer the following:

I have tended to notice that there can exist a nearly equal religious-like fervor or zeal exhibited among atheists as there is among theists; which can often manifest itself as a fairly aggressive and dogmatic anti-religionism/anti-theism. And the problem of a tribal mentality exists no less in the atheist community (insofar as one can speak of an atheist community) which tends itself to a perception of the world in an "us vs. them" framework.

In this general way of things I have noticed a tendency toward irrational thinking, failure at critical thinking, and all the various hallmarks that I have also noticed in closed-minded, tribalistic religious persons. For example an uncritical acceptance of the kind of Jesus Mythicism as advocated by crackpots such as Archarya S or the nonsense of things such as Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist. I was recently pointed to an atheist blog recently that specifically addresses a common failure to critically study history common in what might be called a kind "popular atheism" I suppose? The blog author specifically speaks of the "New Atheists". History for Atheists

I found it interesting because it addresses common historical misconceptions that I have often addressed in discussions over the years, with both religious and non-religious people.

Though I think one of the more distasteful elements I have seen in "popular atheist culture" (for lack of better terming), is the rise of alt-right atheists who seem to have an ax to grind against all religious people, feminists, and social progressivism generally. The vitriolic misogyny, homophobia/transphobia, and xenophobia perpetrated which I've personally seen is pretty disgusting.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jack of Spades

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I don't know enough about "new atheism" to offer anything resembling a generalized comment; but I would offer the following:

I have tended to notice that there can exist a nearly equal religious-like fervor or zeal exhibited among atheists as there is among theists; which can often manifest itself as a fairly aggressive and dogmatic anti-religionism/anti-theism. And the problem of a tribal mentality exists no less in the atheist community (insofar as one can speak of an atheist community) which tends itself to a perception of the world in an "us vs. them" framework.

In this general way of things I have noticed a tendency toward irrational thinking, failure at critical thinking, and all the various hallmarks that I have also noticed in closed-minded, tribalistic religious persons...

That is true, and it's true one doesn't need religion to be a fanatic, but to be objective, there is a difference. In the new atheist camp this biased tribalism is usually limited on views that have something to do with religion, not so much as something that pollutes their entire world view in every issue.

Like for example, I'm pretty sure you couldn't name very many issues outside of attitude towards religion where atheists would be that far off the map in any meaningful numbers to call it an atheist phenomenon.

In unhealthy religious communities this kind of irrationalism and fanaticism is far more omnipresent in all areas of life. Like I'm pretty sure there are no real atheist equivalents for Christians who tell abused wives that they should stay submissive to their husbands or that kids shouldn't be given medical care because faith heals etc. In that kind of practical life questions, even the militant atheists seem to be capable of forming rather reasonable positions as their atheism doesn't have much to do with those areas of life.

Atheism is a far more limited position than a religious world view is, and subsequently, when atheists go overboard with their atheism, the impact of that bias is more limited too.
 
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MehGuy

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The SJW atheist crowd is disgusting too. I'd argue even more misogynistic.

And many atheists who are accused of being misogynistic are mainly because they refuse to coddle women and treat them like children and actually question a lot of awry feminist rhetoric.
 
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FireDragon76

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I think what's new about the new atheism is to a large extent its assessment of religion. It's not really new. In France there was for a period a similar anti-religion. But in the US until recently, atheists tended to see religion as OK, but false. That is, they couldn't believe it, but it wasn't seen as a evil force.

I've seen it this way a long time as well. The New Atheism is really rebranding the old anti-clericalism of Europe's left into a global context.
 
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