The New Apostasy

[IcyChain]

You don't get to undermine the foundation of your country and get credit for being nice to immigrants.

Typically, people who think like you follow a different god - the god of equality. This is where most atheists hang out too. This is forbidden.

Did you know God hates bricks in altars?

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone [brick]: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Why would God hate bricks?

Bricks and stones represent people. Interestingly, the Tower of Babel was about this very problem. The leaders of the day were transforming stones (everybody unequal) into bricks (everybody equal.) The mortar that held everything together was materialism.

Bricks or Stones? [Go to time 6:40.]

Do Christians have any moral obligation to help or support strangers? Would it be proper to set a policy that excludes all strangers?

 

[Clare73]

What are the limits (if any) on restricting immigration in your view?

The limits are whatever our laws state them to be.

For example, if the USA enacted a new law barring all immigration from foreign countries - would you consider that to be inconsistent with Christian principles?

Our government is not theocratic, it is a government by the people.
Whether or not a law is Christian has no bearing on our submission to our laws.

The only exception to my submission is when a law would cause me to sin personally.

 

[Clare73]

I did in my post. Didn't you read the passages from the ESV?

I'll repeat them here, for you.

• There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
• "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
• "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
• You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)

Irrelevant to U.S. government.
Those are laws for a theocracy. We are a government by the people, which people have not chosen theocracy as their form of government.
Rome was not a theocracy, and yet NT Christians were to submit to their ruling authorities, and that included Nero, the murderer of Christians.
The NT does not require governments to be theocratic.

 

[Clare73]

Interesting.

Is the Christian obligated to submit to immoral laws? Such as laws that support abortion,

There is no law requiring abortion that anyone is to submit to.
The Christian is not to submit to any law that would cause him to sin personally.

or laws that enable slavery

Slavery is not immoral. While undesirable as are poverty, sickness and disability, it is not immoral, for God authorized in the OT in Lev 25:44-46, Ex 21:20-21.

or Jim crow? Did blacks in the south act against Christian principles when they refused to submit to the segregation laws and attempted to eat in places reserved for whites?

They acted against the law if any of those things were, in fact, against the law.

How about a law that forbid a student from praying or reading the Bible in a public school? Should the Christian submit to that?

Hypothetical. . .I'll address that when it actually occurs and I can know the parameters of the law.

I think you see the point.
I don't think we can say that simply because immigration laws exist, that those laws are just and must be submitted to.

Then you don't agree with NT law for the Christian in Ro 13:1-7, Tit 3:1, 1 Pe 2:13-14, you prefer your own law.

Justice is giving everyone what he is owed, what he has earned, and that includes God's justice.
Non-citizens are not owed citizenship in this country, and it is not unjust that they do not have it

The question is whether or not our current immigration policy is consistent with Christian principles.

In a democracy, the question is whether our policies are consistent with our laws.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You don't get to undermine the foundation of your country and get credit for being nice to immigrants.

One ought not worship a worldly nation as a god.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Irrelevant to U.S. government.
Those are laws for a theocracy. We are a government by the people, which people have not chosen theocracy as their form of government.
Rome was not a theocracy, and yet NT Christians were to submit to their ruling authorities, and that included Nero, the murderer of Christians.
The NT does not require governments to be theocratic.

• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
• If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13 ESV)

One should not dismiss the words of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Nor the teaching of saint Paul.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Nice argument, in addition, to those statements, those advocating for the policies are not considering the consequences for the people, the immigration issue is one of the most blaring examples of this. It is good that the governors are forcing the issue by busing them to sanctuary cities so that those who want to take care of them can. This is forcing people to live with the consequences of their choices. The problem with Liberial policies is, someone else has to pay for it and live with it.

There is a difference between an invasion of people illegally crossing a country's borders and sojourners who are legally in the country. I don't believe we need to be flooded with criminals on the run from the law in their own country. I don't believe that Muslims should be welcomed as they are antichrist at heart. Refugees are meant to be fleeing persecution, not simply hoping for a better life at taxpayers expense.

Australia's high court recently ordered the release of around 140 long term detainees who came here illegally. They are criminals trying to escape justice. 5 of the released detainees are in prison. They've committed crimes almost the moment they walked out of the detention centre. They know that they can't be sent back to their own country. Australia won't repatriate people to where they face the death penalty. A man who murdered his girlfriend, sex offenders and paedophiles are walking our streets. They are not sojourners, they are here illegally and they are not neighbours.

How about considering the consequences for people already living in your country. Over 60% of the immigrants welcomed by Denmark have committed crimes. Denmark had one of the most liberal immigration policies in Europe. They are regretting it now.

It's not a straightforward issue. Loving your neighbour surely includes protecting them from those who would do them harm.

 

[Aussie Pete]

• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
• If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13 ESV)

One should not dismiss the words of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Nor the teaching of saint Paul.

Those words are addressed to the Church, not to the world. Expecting the world to behave in a godly manner is foolish. That is like expecting a cat to behave like a dog.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Those words are addressed to the Church, not to the world. Expecting the world to behave in a godly manner is foolish. That is like expecting a cat to behave like a dog.

Take a look at the Original Post, it is about apostasy which is a church thing. It is not me that is dragging nations into this, my question was aimed at getting Christians to look at nations through biblical and Christian norms. It posed the question, "Am I an apostate simply because I want to treat "the stranger" the same way we treat a native? "The stranger" being both foreigners and people born in our own countries who are treated differently because they look different, have different practises and/or languages, and so forth. Suggesting that health care should not lead to bankruptcy etcetera.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Take a look at the Original Post, it is about apostasy which is a church thing. It is not me that is dragging nations into this, my question was aimed at getting Christians to look at nations through biblical and Christian norms. It posed the question, "Am I an apostate simply because I want to treat "the stranger" the same way we treat a native? "The stranger" being both foreigners and people born in our own countries who are treated differently because they look different, have different practises and/or languages, and so forth. Suggesting that health care should not lead to bankruptcy etcetera.

Health care is not a church issue. It's for governments. By all means pray that the government introduces health care. It sort of works in Australia. You then have to live with the consequences. Health care is incredibly expensive, especially in America. That's the downside of a legal system that sues at the drop of a hat and awards payouts that make insurance absurdly expensive. There is no "free". Either the taxpayer coughs up for a system he may never use or individuals pay either through insurance or out of their pockets.

There is excellent healthcare and there is free healthcare. They are mutually exclusive. My local hospital was overflowing when I had a heart problem. The ambulance had to take me 40 minutes away. It was 7 hours before I was treated. The waiting room was packed full. Yet another time when I was desperately ill, I was admitted to my local hospital in about half an hour. It seemed like eternity. Recently, some patients have died before seeing a doctor. It's a bit of a lottery at times.

I think you are looking for a problem where there is none. Maybe your definition of "Christian" is too broad. There are a lot of churchgoers who are not born again. They may be religious, but that is not the same at all.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Health care is not a church issue. It's for governments. By all means pray that the government introduces health care. It sort of works in Australia. You then have to live with the consequences. Health care is incredibly expensive, especially in America.

hey you might try the Adventist on this. the bible does say a thing or two about lifestyle healthcare. This is an area that all churches should teach on, as a way of blessing God's people showing
God's care on for their health.

 

[Aussie Pete]

hey you might try the Adventist on this. the bible does say a thing or two about lifestyle healthcare. This is an area that all churches should teach on, as a way of blessing God's people showing
God's care on for their health.

I don't know what is meant by lifestyle healthcare. If it has anything to do with vegetarianism, count me out.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Do Christians have any moral obligation to help or support strangers? Would it be proper to set a policy that excludes all strangers?

What do you mean exactly? We don't have formal policies. We seek to be led by the Spirit. One time I was driving home and I had this little nudge to go down a different street. There was a homeless man we knew walking along. We were able to help him. He was almost in tears. It was just before Christmas and his welfare payment had not come through.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Health care is not a church issue.

Hospitals and health care with nursing was a Christian activity and it still is.

 

[IcyChain]

What do you mean exactly?

I'm honestly not sure what part of the question you would like me to clarify. If you can explain exactly what part or aspect of the question you would like me to clarify, I will attempt to do so.

We don't have formal policies. We seek to be led by the Spirit. One time I was driving home and I had this little nudge to go down a different street. There was a homeless man we knew walking along. We were able to help him. He was almost in tears. It was just before Christmas and his welfare payment had not come through.

Would you imagine that there are Christians whom the Holy Spirit never prompts to help poor people?

It appears that your view is that Christians do have a moral obligation to support the poor, but that moral obligation is bound on the heart of the Christian by the promptings of the Holy Spirit, rather than as a legal code of sorts. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I would probably say that the moral obligation to help the poor is part of the natural law binding on man as part of our nature and by way of God's relationship to man.

Let's take an atheist (John) who has 10 billion dollars. He is walking down the street and sees a 10 year old homeless girl (Jane) on the street, starving to death. Jane politely asks John if he can buy her 1 basic meal so that she will not starve to death. There are no impediments from John doing so (such as lack of time, fear of being scammed). John simply says "no, I do not have to help you, it is my money and I do not feel like helping you at the moment".

In my view John has committed a grave sin by refusing to help Jane in that situation. It does not matter that he is not Christian and that the Holy Spirit has not prompted him to help Jane.

Or let's say that John in this situation is a Christian, but for whatever (granted, unlikely) reason the Holy Spirit has not prompted him to help Jane. John still refuses. I think John has still sinned, regardless of the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[IcyChain]

The Christian is not to submit to any law that would cause him to sin personally.

Slavery is not immoral. While undesirable as are poverty, sickness and disability, it is not immoral, for God authorized in the OT in Lev 25:44-46.

They acted against the law if any of those things were, in fact, against the law.

Hypothetical. . .I'll address that when it actually occurs and I can know the parameters of the law.

In my view the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the Jim Crow laws in the southern United States were clearly immoral, and not in keeping with Christian principles. If either of those things are re-enacted during my lifetime I will not submit to them. I suppose I will then see if our blessed Lord views my that as sin when I appear before his judgment seat. I am farily confident that the Jesus I know views those laws as immoral.

Then you don't agree with NT law for the Christian in Ro 13:1-7, Tit 3:1, 1 Pe 2:13-14, you prefer your own law.

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."

The fact that your intepretation of Scripture has led you to conclude that a Christian is obligated to adhere to immoral laws like those enabling the trans-atlantic slave trade, and the Jim Crow laws in the south that discriminated against men based on the color of thier skin, does not give you the slightest reason to pause and think that perhaps your interpretation of Sacred Scripture could be off-base?

Justice is giving everyone what he is owed, what he has earned, and that includes God's justice.
Non-citizens are not owed citizenship in this country, and it is not unjust that they do not have it

In a democracy, the question is whether our policies are consistent with our laws.

It appears that your view is that an immigration policy that prohibits all immigration into a country is consistent with Christian principles. Is my understanding of your view correct?

 

[IcyChain]

Are you apostate when you, unlike the vast majority of your fellow religionists, do not want to see a conservative supreme court, vote for the conservative party in your country, and want to see refugees treated with dignity, the poor fed and housed, the sick cared for without risking bankruptcy? Is the gospel as a lived experience to be shunned as communist? How do you want to see your nation deal with biblical teachings such as these:

• There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49 ESV)
• "You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22:21 ESV)
• "You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9 ESV)
• You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 19:34 ESV)
• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)

I am more or less a political "conservative" in the US. I believe in small-government, low taxes, all of that.

Although there is reasonable room for debate concerning which particular policies and actions are appropriate in a given situation, it should be clear to any Christian that we do have an obligation to see refugees treated with dignity, to feed and house the poor, and to care for the sick. Where these obligations come into conflict with my "conservative" values, then I must choose the faith over my political inclinations.

In the US and other Western nations, there appears to be a serious problem among "conservative" Christians. Many appear to prioritize their politics (and in particular their notions of freedom or laissez-faire economics) over their faith. They seem to want to fit their faith into their politics, rather than attempting to fit their politics into their faith.

We end up with things like "I only have to help the poor when the Holy Spirit prompts me to."

We end up with people trying to justify adherence to laws enabling the trans-Atlantic slave trade and apartheid.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am more or less a political "conservative" in the US. I believe in small-government, low taxes, all of that.

Although there is reasonable room for debate concerning which particular policies and actions are appropriate in a given situation, it should be clear to any Christian that we do have an obligation to see refugees treated with dignity, to feed and house the poor, and to care for the sick. Where these obligations come into conflict with my "conservative" values, then I must choose the faith over my political inclinations.

In the US and other Western nations, there appears to be a serious problem among "conservative" Christians. Many appear to prioritize their politics (and in particular their notions of freedom or laissez-faire economics) over their faith. They seem to want to fit their faith into their politics, rather than attempting to fit their politics into their faith.

We end up with things like "I only have to help the poor when the Holy Spirit prompts me to."

We end up with people trying to justify adherence to laws enabling the trans-Atlantic slave trade and apartheid.

By USA standards in Australian politics both the conservative parties and the left leaning parties are "socialist". But you are right, it isn't one's politics that matters it is one's charity and compassion that matters. The gospel calls Christians to goodness, to heal the sick, feed the homeless, give justice to the poor. Yet allegiance to particular political philosophies leads some Christians to forget the gospel in practise. May God have mercy on us all, and lead us to be like Jesus rather than like the popular politicians on "our side" in politics.

 

[Clare73]

• And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live." (Luke 10:25-28 ESV)
• If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13 ESV)

One should not dismiss the words of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Nor the teaching of saint Paul.

Relevance to our government?

Our government has no obligation to Scripture.

Only I have that obligation, and under a government where freedom of religion is guaranteed, I am able to obey Scripture.
My obligation to Scripture does not create a governmental obligation to Scripture.
It is self-evident that a Christian is obligated to Scripture, which does not create a problem for our government.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Relevance to our government?

This thread is not about the USA's government. It is about how the gospel influences Christians in their actions and thinking about how governments act.