The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

[Hammster]

Previously you wrote, "The ability to stop evil is now up to Christ's body under the headship of Jesus." Apparently Christ's body under the headship of Jesus has no real ability to stop evil. Did you actually mean responsibility rather than ability?

That was a different member.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That was a different member.

Thank you for correcting me.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Would you be against this, then?

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

or

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

or

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

Ok these verses don’t say what the Calvin quote actually says. These verses talk about what God did at a particular time and they don’t involve God controlling everyone everywhere like the quote from Calvin does.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

You’re pointing out specific examples but these don’t indicate that God governed the will of all people like the quote here says. So these verses are inadequate to support this quote from Calvin. And how does your proverbs quote follow along with the treachery of king David, did God govern David’s will in his lust for Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah?

 

[bling]

Would you be against this, then?

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

God can channel anyone and everyone in some things, at some times, especially rulers for as the king goes so goes the nation. This does not mean God channels some people to choose salvation and others to refuse God’s help, God chose to leave that one mental choice, up to the individual free will.

or

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

Again, the Lord can do, cause and allow lots of stuff, but that does not mean God causes everything to happen and humans do not have any autonomous free will mental choices that can result in them individually humbly accepting God’s pure charity as charity.

or

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

OK? There will always be with us (here on earth) “wars and rumors of war”. This is not addressing the limited choices need to make the very few free will choices needed for salvation.

 

[bling]

So you would agree that if God allows sin, He certainly could stop it as well.

God did not have to put the tree and satan in the Garden.
Sin is not the problem.
Sinning is one of the parts needed for humans to easily fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God did not have to put the tree and satan in the Garden.
Sin is not the problem.
Sinning is one of the parts needed for humans to easily fulfill their earthly objective.

Do humans actually need to sin in order to easily fulfill their earthly objective?

 

[Hammster]

Ok these verses don’t say what the Calvin quote actually says. These verses talk about what God did at a particular time and they don’t involve God controlling everyone everywhere like the quote from Calvin does.

They do point out that God does what you object to, though.

You’re pointing out specific examples but these don’t indicate that God governed the will of all people like the quote here says. So these verses are inadequate to support this quote from Calvin.

No they aren’t. But let me ask you this. How many verses do I need to post before you agree that God is in control of everything?

And how does your proverbs quote follow along with the treachery of king David, did God govern David’s will in his lust for Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah?

Do you mean the God-breathed verse I posted?

 

[Hammster]

God can channel anyone and everyone in some things, at some times, especially rulers for as the king goes so goes the nation. This does not mean God channels some people to choose salvation and others to refuse God’s help, God chose to leave that one mental choice, up to the individual free will.

Are you okay with God channeling everyone as long as He doesn’t channel you?

Again, the Lord can do, cause and allow lots of stuff, but that does not mean God causes everything to happen and humans do not have any autonomous free will mental choices that can result in them individually humbly accepting God’s pure charity as charity.

It also doesn’t mean that He doesn’t cause and allow a bunch of stuff.

OK? There will always be with us (here on earth) “wars and rumors of war”. This is not addressing the limited choices need to make the very few free will choices needed for salvation.

It does address that it’s because of God that we have the peace we have, and He can withdraw His hand and cause calamity.

 

[Hammster]

God did not have to put the tree and satan in the Garden.
Sin is not the problem.
Sinning is one of the parts needed for humans to easily fulfill their earthly objective.

Can God stop individuals from committing certain acts of sin?

 

[John Mullally]

Practically, how can a church stop a man who wants to rape a woman? Or tell a lie? Or steal a pen?

According to Jesus, the church has a positive role as the salt of the earth. We still live in a fallen world.

According to Calvin, God planned everything that ever happened including the rape (see the quotes from Calvin in Post 5). Calvin's God becomes difficult to differentiate from the devil. Thus, Calvinism slanders God's character.

 

[Hammster]

According to Jesus, the church has a positive role as the salt of the earth. We still live in a fallen world.

According to Calvin, God planned everything that ever happened including the rape (see the quotes from Calvin in Post 5). Calvin's God becomes difficult to differentiate from the devil. Thus, Calvinism slanders God's character.

Do you believe that God can intervene and stop a rape from occurring?

 

[John Mullally]

Do you believe that God can intervene and stop a rape from occurring?

Yes, but it frequently does not occur as we live in a fallen world.

You are not powerless in this matter, as Jesus commands his followers to pray that God's will be done on earth at it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10).

You avoided responding to the rest of my post (33) - I take that to your being in agreement that it is difficult to differentiate Calvin's God from the devil. Amen and amen.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but it frequently does not occur as we live in a fallen world.

If God can, but doesn’t, would it be safe to conclude that God has a reason for not intervening, even if we can never understand it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

They do point out that God does what you object to, though.

What, you mean that God uses people for His purpose? I never objected to this idea, no the idea that I object to is that God governs the will of all men because that is not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures do not teach that God governs the will of all men 24/7, the examples you provided do not support this idea. Take Pharaoh for example, why did God harden his heart? God revealed why He was going to harden Pharaoh’s heart when He spoke to Moses at the burning bush. God specifically said that He already knew that Pharaoh would not let the Israelites leave except under compulsion. That’s why God hardened his heart and chose to use Pharaoh as an example, and by doing it this way God was completely justified in hardening Pharaoh’s heart. Now if God had hardened Pharaoh’s heart knowing that Pharaoh would’ve complied with His commands then He would’ve been guilty of causing Pharaoh’s sin but that’s not the way it happened. God was completely justified in hardening Pharaoh’s heart in order to bring about the 10 plaques thereby showing His might, glory, and grace upon Israel. That is an example of how God controls the will of men according to His purpose.

No they aren’t. But let me ask you this. How many verses do I need to post before you agree that God is in control of everything?

Just one, do you have one?

Do you mean the God-breathed verse I posted?

Did you post any verses from Proverbs that were not God breathed? So how about answering the question, Did God govern David’s will in his lust for Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah?

 

[John Mullally]

If God can, but doesn’t, would it be safe to conclude that God has a reason for not intervening, even if we can never understand it?

Jesus said that the devil has nothing in him (John 14:30) and Paul told others to not give place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27). Bad things happen in this fallen world because people unconsciously authorize it by giving place to the devil through sin. God gave the earth to man (Psalms 115:16) so He requires permission (via obedience and prayer) from the owner (man) in order to intervene on earth. Evil does not serve God's purpose and it it is not His fault (as it is due to men giving place to the devil). Comprende?

I was impressed with myself for writing this. It answers much of the most difficult questions in a short passage.

 

[Hammster]

Just one, do you have one?

Matthew 28:18.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus said that the devil has nothing in him (John 14:30) and Paul told others to not give place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27). Bad things happen in this fallen world because people unconsciously authorize it by giving place to the devil through sin. God gave the earth to man (Psalms 115:16) so He requires permission (via obedience and prayer) from the owner (man) in order to intervene on earth. Evil does not serve God's purpose and it it is not His fault (as it is due to men giving place to the devil). Comprende?

I was impressed with myself for writing this. It sums up so much in a short passage.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. Did you just say that God has to ask man’s permission to intervene?

 

[fhansen]

Would you be against this, then?

The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.
— Proverbs 21:1

or

And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
— Ezra 6:22

or

And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
— Revelation 6:4

Well, while you object to Calvinism being associated with a puppet master concept, you've pretty much quoted passages that support that concept. There's no argument over whether or not God can do whatever He wishes; the argument has to do with what God wishes to do. And with the whole counsel of Scripture together with historic teachings of the churches and ECFs, along with reason, alone, it's obvious, to me, at least, that God commands and seeks to draw from man a simple "yes" to Him, a yes comprised of faith, hope, and love born out by actions that should all grow stronger as one remains in Him and does His will by the help of His grace. In fact, He specifically does not want to do it all for you, as if He were a God who foreordained our evil choices, blamed us for our evil choices, and then takes credit for redeeming us from the penalty of our evil choices.

It's not either/or but both/and, Him and you, with His grace necessarily preceding it all.

 

[John Mullally]

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. Did you just say that God has to ask man’s permission to intervene?

Men are not worthless worms. Jesus commanded us to work while it is day (John 9:4), This is our time to work (in the years we have on earth) and make a difference.

Re-read Matthew 6:10. Jesus commands his disciples to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If God did not need man's permission to intervene, then why is Jesus asking His disciples to pray this? Imagine that there is a practical purpose involved in Jesus's command.

Don't take this personally: You (and many others) are so stuck in your Calvinism/Monergism/Determinism/Fatalism that you cannot understand the multiple scriptures that contradict your nonsense such as Matthew 6:10 which show man's needed involvement.

Imagine that God in His Sovereignty, requires man's cooperation in order to accomplish His purposes on earth. Matthew 6:10 supports that. What scriptures do you have to show otherwise?

 

[Hammster]

Well, while you object to Calvinism being associated with a puppet master concept, you've pretty much quoted passages that support that concept. There's no argument over whether or not God can do whatever He wishes; the argument has to do with what God wishes to do. And with the whole counsel of Scripture together with historic teachings of the churches and ECFs, along with reason, alone, it's obvious, to me, at least, that God commands and seeks to draw from man a simple "yes" to Him, a yes comprised of faith, hope, and love born out by actions that should all grow stronger as one remains in Him and does His will by the help of His grace. In fact, He specifically does not want to do it all for you, as if He were a God who foreordained our evil choices, blamed us for our evil choices, and then takes credit for redeeming us from the penalty of our evil choices.

It's not either/or but both/and, Him and you, with His grace necessarily preceding it all.

I do believe that God controls all things. I object to puppet master because that leaves man with an excuse. I think God can control what He wants and still leave men responsible for their actions, either good or bad.