The Neanderthal Club.

[john crawford]

A hearty greeting and welcome to the Neanderthal Club here on Christian Forums!

Thanks to Erwin, our gracious Christian Host and Webmaster of Christian Forums, those of us who may not find it entirely impossible to identify and associate ourselves with our Neanderthal brothers, sisters and cousins in various parts of the world today, as well as with the original Ice Age descendents of Neanderthal people whose very own ancestors one day disembarked from Noah's Ship just before the recent Ice Age set in, have finally found some parking space on the Internet in which to rest our weary Neanderthal bones and enjoy a little serious discussion or riposte with those who come to visit us in a place we can call home on Christian Forums.

Rather than bore you with any more long-winded speeches about the Neanderthal Club and our Neanderthal ancestors on your first visit here, allow me to answer any questions you may have about either your own ancestry or mine. Don't worry. We don't run around with big clubs anymore now that we have our very own modern Neanderthal Club here on Christian Forums, which, btw, as a visitor, you need not join in order to be fully welcomed, received and treated like any other Christian brother and sister who freely chooses to delve into the mysteries of their own ancestral origins and biological descent here at the Neanderthal Club.

 

[Lycana]

So you believe you are a Neanderthal? Why? What is your theory based on?

 

[john crawford]

So you believe you are a Neanderthal? Why? What is your theory based on?

Hi Lycana. Thanks for visiting our club and enquiring about Neanderthal ancestry and origins. We first discovered and starting learning about it in Marvin Lubenow's creationist book, "Bones of Contention," published by BakerBooks in 2004, so it's basically his theory even though he doesn't make that claim for himself. He just gives a detailed analysis of the human fossil record and documents the historic racism inherent in all theories of human evolution out of African monkey and ape ancestors in order to show how Neanderthal tribes were probably post-flood descendents of Noahs' sons who survived the ensuing Ice Age around the time of the Bablylonian diaspora and the beginning of nations when the earth was divided.

We figure that anyone who claims genealogical origins and descent from one of Noah's three son's wives can also claim Neanderthal ancestry and origins as their own special genealogical heritage even if some of their ancestors are superficially labeled as different and separate 'species' of humans by neo-Darwinist race theorists in public schools. We don't advocate such racist theories of human evolution here at the Neanderthal Club.

How's that for a brief introduction?

 

[Floodnut]

It is necessary, for those of the Hugh Ross ilk, that Neanderthals be viewed as something other than human, even thought they cared for their weak, infirm, and elderly; even though they buried their dead cerimonially; even though they had speech; and even though they had music and musical instruments. And if Hugh Ross is right about their being less than human there is still the reality that they did indeed interbreed with so-called "anatomically modern" humans, as evidenced by the co-existence of both "kinds" in the Carmel caves.

 

[john crawford]

It is necessary, for those of the Hugh Ross ilk, that Neanderthals be viewed as something other than human, even thought they cared for their weak, infirm, and elderly; even though they buried their dead cerimonially; even though they had speech; and even though they had music and musical instruments.

Hi Floodnut: Welcome to the Club and thanks for posting something truthful about our much maligned Neanderthal ancestors who survived both the Flood and Ice Age. I'm a Lubenow nut myself and don't have much faith in people like Ross who deny their own Caucasian and Neanderthal origins and ancestral genealogy through Noah's Family Tree. How do such people ever hope or expect to be included in Jesus Christ's Family Tree in accordance with His own written testimony and recorded genealogy?

And if Hugh Ross is right about their being less than human there is still the reality that they did indeed interbreed with so-called "anatomically modern" humans, as evidenced by the co-existence of both "kinds" in the Carmel caves.

Obviously Mr. Ross cannot possibly be 'right' if he thinks that any of Noah's descendents were "less than Human" unless he first bases and establishes his notions of 'right and wrong' on neo-Darwinist racial premises that all human races and neo-Darwinist 'species' of Homos may be classified as genus', tribes, subfamily's, family's and superfamily's of apes (Hominoidea) in the order of primates which neo-Darwinist race theorists are wont to do in order to facilitate and demonstrate Darwin's original theory that all human beings originated and descended from African monkey and ape ancestors.

The Mt. Carmel evidence of Neanderthal co-existence with, and transition to, modern Humans is further evidenced and established in the Pit of Bones assemblage of Neanderthal remains recently discovered in Atapeurca, Spain, but only when it is realized and taken into consideration, that the unique and classic Neanderthal skull morphology of the fossils is related to the declining longevity of the Patriarchs who survived the Flood after Noah's demise. Noah himself lived more than 900 years and his intermediate descendents prior to Terah, Abram and Isaac, who themselves lived over 150 years, averaged 400 year lifetimes. Both Peleg and Noah may have had distinctive Neanderthal morphologies. If they did, would Jesus have considered them less than Human as Mr. Ross does?

 

[TwinCrier]

OK, you have my attention. I'm curious about the reference to causasian. Don't most neanderthal skulls more resemble negroid bone structure? I recently was watching one of the numerous fereseics programs on television and examination of the jaw was used to determine race in this manner.
I think I have grown to disassociate myself from the "neanderthal" thing because of the discription of "ape-like" so often used by evolutionists. Am I to understand you are saying modern man is no differnt than these ancesters?

 

[john crawford]

OK, you have my attention. I'm curious about the reference to causasian. Don't most neanderthal skulls more resemble negroid bone structure?

Hello TwinCrier and Double Blessed One. Welcome to the Neanderthal Club where Christians can ponder about who their human ancestors really were. Yes, Neanderthal features do approximate those of Rhodesian Man and Turkana Boy.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/brokenhill.htm
I copied the following from the weblink in order to show you how similar early/archaic 'sapiens' like Rhodesian Man (also called Heidleberg Man) are to both Turkana (H. erectus) and Neanderthal people.

"The braincase profile is low and slopes back from a large supraorbital torus reminiscent of earlier H. erectus specimens. There is also the remnant of a sagittal keel and an occipital torus at the back of the skull, also recalling H. erectus. However, the face is more modern in appearance (less prognathic, flatter) and the brain size of about 1300 cc. is larger than seen in H. erectus. Thus, this cranium preserves many traits that are reminiscent of earlier H. erectus and hints of more modern traits known later in H. sapiens."

Here's a weblink to Turkana Boy. Even though his skeleton was not of Neanderthal proportion, the skull shows the same contour.
http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/erectus/erectus-a.html
This weblink shows other H. erectus skulls. Notice the occipital bun in the back of the skull which is shared with both Heidleberg and Neanderthal Man.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/erec.html

I recently was watching one of the numerous fereseics programs on television and examination of the jaw was used to determine race in this manner.

The examination of which jaw was used to determine which race?

I think I have grown to disassociate myself from the "neanderthal" thing because of the discription of "ape-like" so often used by evolutionists.

Evolutionists are bound to associate as many of the human fossils as they can with ape skulls because they need to show a gradual skeletal transformation in the transition of humans from ape-like creatures in order to prove their theory of common human and ape ancestry in Africa.

Am I to understand you are saying modern man is no differnt than these ancesters?

Obviously there are morphological differences between the skulls in the human fossil record just as there are obvious physical differences amongst various racial groups on earth today. Creationists don't see these differences as the result of neo-Darwinist evolution from ape ancestors but simply as genetic variety which God potentially created within the original human race and species of mankind.

Thanks for visiting us here at the Neanderthal Club on Christian Forums in order to satisfy your Christian and Caucasian curiosity. Please come back.

 

[LoG]

So what is your take on
The Neanderthal Man and The Nephilim


I think the article and its links provides an interesting hypotheses.

 

[VividViolet]

I have been and continue to be interested in anthropology (having taken two college classes of it) ... and know about the co-existence of the Neaderthal and modern humans, etc. I do believe they did interbreed, and they did find the remains of a child with both characteristics in Portugal. Whether these hybrids survived is anybody's guess, but it is my opinion that it is quite possibly so.

 

[john crawford]

So what is your take on
The Neanderthal Man and The Nephilim

I think the article and its links provides an interesting hypotheses.

Hello Lion of God, and welcome to the Christian Forums club where normal everyday descendents of Noahic Neanderthals can sit around nonchalantly while discussing the origins and disappearance of their favorite ancestors over a hot cup of coffee or other adult beverage.

I enjoyed browsing through the above link which you so graciously provided and found much useful information posted there along with the connected links to other website resources for scientific and historical data. It is an interesting and thought provoking "take" on the origin of our Neanderthal ancestors, with a nice introduction to some creationist deconstruction of evolutionist conceptual constructs of radioactive deep time and solid old geologic columns. I was a little disappointed that they didn't include any other creationist website links or creationist literature in their bookstore but seeing how their church's main focus seems to be on spiritual recovery, it is perfectly understandable and acceptable to fellow Christians like me that they neglected to do so. After all, no two Christians or Christian churches seem to think alike about everything.

My own Christian creationist point of view is premised more on the published writings of fellow creationists like Marvin L. Lubenow and Jack Cuozzo, who offer well-sustantiated scientific and biblical documentation in support of their contentions that Neanderthals were the first 10 or 12 generations of the descendents of Noah who survived the world devastating effects of the flood and subsequent Ice Age, and whose seemingly odd heavy-boned skeletal morphologies were attributable to natural aging processes resulting from their having lived such long individual life spans. Cuozzo is a dentist and knows about both tooth and bone growth and decay, while Lubenow is a biblical scholar who has been researching the human fossil record and evolutionist theories of human origins for over 35 years and provides extensive documentation of the fraudulent techniques and methods employed by Darwinist paleoanthropologists over the past 100 years.

Anyway, there are obviously many different Christian and non-Christian points of view to be taken into consideration whenever the subject of Neanderthal origins, ancestry, common descent and their so-called extinction comes up, providing us with possibly more information than we can probably digest during one visit to the Neanderthal Club. The reason I like to consider and include the ancient Neanderthal people as worthy ancestors in my own genealogical ancestral family tree is that if they actually were the first 10 or 12 generational descendents of Noah as Cuozzo and Lubenow contend they were, some of whom were Abraham's own Shemitic ancestors, those who ended up in such places as my own Caucasian ancestors came from, can be claimed and included as members of my own ancestral family link to Noah through whom Jesus Christ is genealogically descended from Adam and Eve, as related in the Gospel of Luke.

Thanks for your timely visit to the Neanderthal Club here on Christian Forums where we may civilly and rationally discuss our individual "takes" on the meaning and relevence of Neanderthal life in an intelligent Christian way. I wouldn't mind having further discussions relating to any of the information included in the website which you brought to our attention since all Christian creationist's viewpoints are welcome to be discussed and explored in the Neanderthal Club even if they don't pretend to have any Neanderthal ancestors instead of great apes, in their own family's genealogical tree.

Shalom!

 

[john crawford]

I have been and continue to be interested in anthropology (having taken two college classes of it) ... and know about the co-existence of the Neaderthal and modern humans, etc. I do believe they did interbreed, and they did find the remains of a child with both characteristics in Portugal. Whether these hybrids survived is anybody's guess, but it is my opinion that it is quite possibly so.

Hello and welcome, VividViolet. Surely you must be an outstanding and colorful member of the Purple Club here on the Christian Club forums. Excuse me while I pour myself another cup of coffee. Would you like one or maybe something else to sip? We are always happy to have modern Christian students of anthropology visit us here at the Neanderthal Club in order to share their views over their favorite brews. No booze though. Sorry. We don't have our license.

Yes, the Neanderthal child found in Portugal is either evidence of hybridization, mixed racial parentage or simply Neanderthal devolution, since speciation is dependent on raciation and cannot proceed without some degree of it occuring within a species in the first place. I find it helpful to provide at least one weblink to whatever we happen to be discussing so if you don't mind, I will see if I can dredge something up in a google search on the child we are referring to. Here are a couple; one form an evolutionists POV and the other, of course, by my good creationist doctor friend, Jack Cuozzo. Just to keep things fair and balanced as they say on Fox News.

http://record.wustl.edu/archive/1999/04-29-99/articles/neanderthal.html

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i1/neanderthal.asp

Now, Jack is also aquainted with the research of Professor Marvin L. Lubenow, and both of these Christian gentlemen present extensive documentation in making a valid intelligent case for Neanderthal people being the natural descendents of Noah whose incredibly long life spans were the cause and reason for the unusually slow maturation rates and heavy growth structures in Neanderthal skull and post-cranial skeletal morphologies. Now, of course, all of evolutionary science is combined against such a hypothesis because it is absolutely vital and necessary for Darwinists to prove human descent from African apes rather than verifying a Noahic ancestry which would only prove to be counter productive to their secular and political intentions.

Unfortunately for Christians, the secular and political scientists of our day are as intent on denying the possibility of their Noahic ancestry as they are intent on denying the possibilty of a world-wide flood having ever occured, let alone during the past 10 thousand years. They would rather include non-human African apes in their own family's ancestral tree than to count themselves as modern descendents of such brute beasts as they have depicted, painted, and made Neanderthal folks out to be.

Ah, time for more coffee. Refill?

 

[Breetai]

I could go for some coffee.

Anyway, weren't Neanderthal's just unfortunate old men with arthritis? That's what I assumed when I saw them in my grade 3 science class. Then my teacher told me I was related to a monkey. It made me feel funny inside, and I went bananas for a decade or so.