The naughty things creationists at AiG accept.

[PsychoSarah]

I would say that in America at least, religion isn't neutral. At all. It's extremely damaging.

Extremists in all forms do damage, but extremists are a minority.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Tell me something that a religion does that can not be done without religion, just one thing.
Belief in nonsense comes at a price, it affects everything the believer thinks, it is anything but neutral.
I don't want to get rid of them I just want religions to die naturally, stop telling children lies and the religions will die.

They don't view it as lies. To them, they are telling the truth, and they would be just as mad at being forced to withhold the "truth" as you would.

 

[selfinflikted]

Extremists in all forms do damage, but extremists are a minority.

I didn't say a word about extremists.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I didn't say a word about extremists.

When it comes to religion causing harm in the present, extremist groups are usually the cause rather than the majority moderate believers. Especially when you place it on a global scale rather than just 1 country's population.

 

[selfinflikted]

When it comes to religion causing harm in the present, extremist groups are usually the cause rather than the majority moderate believers. Especially when you place it on a global scale rather than just 1 country's population.

I did specifically say "United States" and I disagree that the only harm comes from extremists.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I did specifically say "United States" and I disagree that the only harm comes from extremists.

I said usually, not always.

 

[rjw]

Extremists in all forms do damage, but extremists are a minority.

I think, given the nature of US culture, that extremists have a greater impact, be because that there is always a ready market for any kind of extremism. And it appears that the loudest voice really can influence government, perhaps more so than in other countries.

Essentially I agree however. I think that some Christians, thanks to their faith, do really great things and can be an inspiration to many of us. However, this faith has its downside. It's also the case that those who think they have the absolute truth and that God is on their side, can write the silliest of things, make the silliest of demonstrable errors, and even lie - and excuse it all on the grounds that they are somehow invincible to these foibles because they are bible believers and have a wisdom beyond that of anyone else.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I think, given the nature of US culture, that extremists have a greater impact, given that there is always a ready market, for any kind of extremism.

Essentially I agree however. I think that some Christians, thanks to their faith, do really great things and can be an inspiration to many of us. However, this faith has its downside. It's also the case that those who think they have the absolute truth and that God is on their side, can write the silliest of things, make the silliest of demonstrable errors, and even lie - and excuse it all on the grounds that they are somehow invincible to these foibles because they are bible believers and have a wisdom beyond that of anyone else.

Pretty much. What is ironic is that most are guilty of the sin of pride.

 

[biggles53]

When it comes to religion causing harm in the present, extremist groups are usually the cause rather than the majority moderate believers. Especially when you place it on a global scale rather than just 1 country's population.

Naive. The so-called 'moderates' in any religion provide the cover for those with more harmful intent...

Please read the second quote on my sig. line.....

 

[PsychoSarah]

Naive. The so-called 'moderates' in any religion provide the cover for those with more harmful intent...

Please read the second quote on my sig. line.....

-_- I have also seen moderate individuals get fed up with extremists and withdraw their support.

 

[biggles53]

-_- I have also seen moderate individuals get fed up with extremists and withdraw their support.

You misunderstand me....please read that part of my sig line again....

Or, if you prefer, the quote of Sam Harris that I modified to get that quote...

"It's not the Islamic fundamentalists we should fear....it's the fundamentals of Islam...."

In other words, when we permit our world views to be based upon superstition and fantasy, whether we happen to be moderate in our approach or not, we open the door for others to likewise form a view, and who may not be so moderate in their expression of that view.....

As a painful example......no one could ever claim that the men who flew planes into the WTC weren't 'true believers' and men of faith....!

 

[PsychoSarah]

Religion may encourage, but ultimately people make a choice to act as they do. Sure, there are plenty of good things that are attributed to religion that could be done without it, bug so are there bad things. Rape, murder, child abuse, all are things people would still do without religion. And before bringing up the low percentage of atheists in prisons, remember to calculate in the fact that atheists are a minority, so they should represent a significantly lower portion of crime than theists do.

 

[FredHoyle]

And before bringing up the low percentage of atheists in prisons, remember to calculate in the fact that atheists are a minority, so they should represent a significantly lower portion of crime than theists do.

That's right, if 10% of the population are Atheists you would expect 10% of prison inmates to be Atheists, well it's not so, the figure is less than 1% (0.07% in fact), the vast majority of inmates follow some religion or another.

What the reason is for the low number we can only guess at, some say there are fewer because Atheists are smart enough not to end up in prison, who knows? one thing we do know is superstition and ignorance can not be good for the brain.

If all the Atheists & Agnostics left America, they'd lose 93% of The National Academy of Sciences & less than 1% of the prison population.

 

[FredHoyle]

Rape, murder, child abuse, all are things people would still do without religion.

Just less of it so it would seem if the prison population is anything to go by.

The Catholic church is a refuge for Pedophiles and has been for many generations and the church has been one of the biggest land owners in Europe for many centuries.

 

[biggles53]

Religion may encourage, but ultimately people make a choice to act as they do.

Not religion, per se, but world views based upon a faith-based epistemology...and ALL religions encourage that...! Once you make it acceptable to believe fantasy and superstition, you make it possible for people to take any action that agrees with that fantasy.......Voltaire or Descartes said something similar...I think...

Sure, there are plenty of good things that are attributed to religion that could be done without it, bug so are there bad things. Rape, murder, child abuse, all are things people would still do without religion.

And they would be considered to be bad, regardless of who was performing them....BUT, for a bad act to be considered as 'good'...? That ONLY happens through faith-based thinking....!

And before bringing up the low percentage of atheists in prisons, remember to calculate in the fact that atheists are a minority, so they should represent a significantly lower portion of crime than theists do.

Fred has addressed this, but let me add.......in those societies with higher levels of religious observance we also find HIGHER levels of violent crime, divorce, teen pregnancy, STD transmission.......

 

[FredHoyle]

Fred has addressed this, but let me add.......in those societies with higher levels of religious observance we also find HIGHER levels of violent crime, divorce, teen pregnancy, STD transmission.......

I was going to address that but I thought it would only rub salt in the wound.

It seems to be true that religious people live in their own little bubble where only good affirmative news can get it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Not religion, per se, but world views based upon a faith-based epistemology...and ALL religions encourage that...! Once you make it acceptable to believe fantasy and superstition, you make it possible for people to take any action that agrees with that fantasy.......Voltaire or Descartes said something similar...I think...

And they would be considered to be bad, regardless of who was performing them....BUT, for a bad act to be considered as 'good'...? That ONLY happens through faith-based thinking....!

Fred has addressed this, but let me add.......in those societies with higher levels of religious observance we also find HIGHER levels of violent crime, divorce, teen pregnancy, STD transmission.......

As it were, areas that are more highly religious also tend to have higher populations in poverty and lower quality education, both of which in and of themselves increase crime rates and sexual misconduct that leads to STDs. Don't forget the other variables, just because religion correlates doesn't make it the cause of these problems.

Faith based thinking, sure, if you include political positions along with it, blindly following an extremist movement is bound to cause problems, and justify terrible acts.

Humans are great at coming up with excuses, if they didn't use god, they would find something else.

 

[mzungu]

As it were, areas that are more highly religious also tend to have higher populations in poverty and lower quality education, both of which in and of themselves increase crime rates and sexual misconduct that leads to STDs. Don't forget the other variables, just because religion correlates doesn't make it the cause of these problems.

Faith based thinking, sure, if you include political positions along with it, blindly following an extremist movement is bound to cause problems, and justify terrible acts.

Humans are great at coming up with excuses, if they didn't use god, they would find something else.

I second this, but we have many cases where religion imposed upon a society, has had detrimental effects. All the Abrahamic religions are based on the OT and when the OT has been implemented to the letter then human rights went out the door. The most influencing variable here is not religion but human nature.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I second this, but we have many cases where religion imposed upon a society, has had detrimental effects. All the Abrahamic religions are based on the OT and when the OT has been implemented to the letter then human rights went out the door. The most influencing variable here is not religion but human nature.

And humans are nothing more than smart apes that happen to get creative with how we hurt and kill one another and can do it on a larger scale than less intelligent creatures.

 

[rjw]

In other words: macroevolution is a lie, unless, of course, it can be used to explain what happened after the flood.

Exactly.

If you read many of the articles at AiG, you will find that the authors accept all kinds of things that come out of the research labs. However, they always put a caveat at the end of their various acceptances. Thus they will write things like (me paraphrasing), "Creationists have never had problems with speciation but this is not molecules to man evolution."

Even Ken Ham accepts that speciation can bring on the formation of new genera and new sub families, if not new families.

They kind of see "kind" as the equivalent of "family" which is not the same as "new animal".

It's been pointed out that many creationists need super-duper-hyper-evolution to explain the existence of so many animal types, given the relatively few types that were on the ark.

One day they might get around to joining the dots and accept that speciation can bring about new orders, classes, phyla, "but this is not molecules to man evolution".