The Nationalistic Image of Daniel 2

[Barraco]

Daniel 2 continues to capture our imagination about how the time of the end will play out. For some it catches their skepticism, looking at it from a historical point of view as fulfilled in the reign of the Seleucid kings. I think many fail to capture the significance of the symbols of the elements of which the element is composed and miss the national/cultural identitit’s of the different kingdoms in which it is associated. I’ll break it down, then explain.

Head of Gold: BabylonIan Empire
Arms and Chest of Silver: Medo-Persian Empire
Belly and Thighs of Brass: Greek Empire of the Diadochi/Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires that dominated the Middle East
Legs of Iron: Western and Eastern Roman Empire
Feet of Iron and Clay: United Nations
Ten toes: A new empire headquartered in Jerusalem.

Head of Gold: The Neo-Babylonian Empire founded by King Nebuchadnezzar. He is the idolatrous king that exalted himself.

Arms and Chest of Silver: The Medo-Persian Empire. They were joined together (like a chest joins the arms) for a time, but Persia was the dominant kingdom.

Belly and Thighs of Brass: Alexander’s Greek Empire (First the Diadochi, then the Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires). The belly’s abs signify Alexander’s kingdom being split between his four strongest generals. The thighs of brass show Egypt and Anatolia becoming the dominant empires, still holding the Greek culture and identity.

Legs of Iron: Roman Empire (Western and Eastern). The Romans were Latin and ruled from Rome until Diocletian divided the empire in the late third century to restore balance to the empire, moving the eastern capital to Byzantine (Constantinople). Daniel 2:42 says this would be a divided empire (like legs are left and right).

Feet of Iron and Clay: “United” Nations. Daniel 2:43 says that the empire would mingle with the seed of men, indicating a mixture of cultures and nationalities. Rome fell to the Germanic tribes in 476 AD and Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks In 1453. After the Napoleanic Wars in the early 19th century, the Holy Roman Empire was dismantled among many competing empires. After World War I ended in 1917, the Ottoman Empire was dismantled and handed over to the Arab people under British and French oversight. After World War II, Britain gave mandate of Palestine to Israel (May 14, 1948), sparking the Arab-Israeli Wars and Islamic terrorism that have got us to where we are today.

Ten toes: A new empire headquartered in Jerusalem. This is where I speculate more than anything. I believe the United Nations will fail in combating Islamic jihad throughout the world and especially in Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:2 says God will make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around, leading to them to besiege Jerusalem. That is already underway. Hamas stated that Al Aqsa Flood was about driving the Jews from Jerusalem and defending the Al Aqsa Mosque from Jewish occupation. Revelation 12:16 shows that river spewed out by the serpent that was intended to sweep Zion away with a flood would be swallowed up. Only after that does the beast rise. The ten toes are the beast of Revelation 13 and I think we are very near to the point of its rise. When God destroys the invading forces from the north outside of Jerusalem like he said Sennacherib’s arrogant Assyrian army, look out for the Babylonian empire of the ten-nation alliance.

I think they will also deal with the Islamist terrorists throughout the world.

 

[RandyPNW]

Head of Gold: BabylonIan Empire
Arms and Chest of Silver: Medo-Persian Empire
Belly and Thighs of Brass: Greek Empire of the Diadochi/Ptolemaic and Seleucid Empires that dominated the Middle East
Legs of Iron: Western and Eastern Roman Empire
Feet of Iron and Clay: United Nations
Ten toes: A new empire headquartered in Jerusalem.

Yea, I see it that way too. Some see the 4 Beasts of Dan 7 as running parallel with Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, the lion, bear, leopard, and terrible beast representing the same. I see the old Roman Empire converting into a Christian Empire to become the "nation" inheriting God's Kingdom from Israel.

But in the last days this dual Empire breaks up into states, 10 of which become the heart of the Antichrist Empire. 3 kings are removed, leave 7 heads and 10 horns, as indicated in the book of Revelation.

I speculate as well, but I think that since the Roman Empire was divided into Eastern and Western branches, one Greek and one Latin, I think their last day heirs will consist of 5 Eastern European countries and 5 Western European countries.

The Eastern Branch evolved to include the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe. And the Western Branch evolved to include the Germanic peoples of Western Europe. It's sort of geometric, isn't it, the way that it has evolved along prophetic lines?

I believe the Great Prostitute of Rev 17 is Rome, coded as "Babylon." Babylon was, you see, the 1st of the 4 Beasts leading to the Roman Empire. Anyway, that's how I see it. We'll see, I guess?

 

[DennisF]

Yea, I see it that way too. Some see the 4 Beasts of Dan 7 as running parallel with Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, the lion, bear, leopard, and terrible beast representing the same. I see the old Roman Empire converting into a Christian Empire to become the "nation" inheriting God's Kingdom from Israel.

But in the last days this dual Empire breaks up into states, 10 of which become the heart of the Antichrist Empire. 3 kings are removed, leave 7 heads and 10 horns, as indicated in the book of Revelation.

I speculate as well, but I think that since the Roman Empire was divided into Eastern and Western branches, one Greek and one Latin, I think their last day heirs will consist of 5 Eastern European countries and 5 Western European countries.

The Eastern Branch evolved to include the Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe. And the Western Branch evolved to include the Germanic peoples of Western Europe. It's sort of geometric, isn't it, the way that it has evolved along prophetic lines?

I believe the Great Prostitute of Rev 17 is Rome, coded as "Babylon." Babylon was, you see, the 1st of the 4 Beasts leading to the Roman Empire. Anyway, that's how I see it. We'll see, I guess?

"But in the last days this dual Empire breaks up into states, 10 of which become the heart of the Antichrist Empire. 3 kings are removed, leave 7 heads and 10 horns, as indicated in the book of Revelation."

From history, Europe was settled by ten barbarian - "barbed (or bearded) Aryan" - tribes (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Lombards, etc.) who migrated from the Middle East into Europe, many of them coming through the mountainous Caucasus region between the Caspian and Black seas from about 200 to 900 AD. (The Sassanids of Persia drove out the Arsacid dynasty of Parthia in 226 AD and the Parthians went west through the Caucasus to join their kinsmen in Scythia - fellow Israelites; see Parthia, Steven M. Collins, 2003, ISBN 0-9725849-2-7)

As I cover in Eschatology Note # 2 elsewhere on this forum, this was Israel - the so-called "lost ten tribes" - though careful reading of scripture shows that from the fourth Assyrian campaign of Essar-Haddon, all 12 tribes of Israel were deported by the Assyrians. (Then where did they go?) Three of these migrated European tribes maintained their independence from the Vatican - the "Holy Roman Empire" - until 538 AD when the last of them were subjugated to the "Bishop of Rome" by Charlemagne, its first emperor.

 

[RandyPNW]

"But in the last days this dual Empire breaks up into states, 10 of which become the heart of the Antichrist Empire. 3 kings are removed, leave 7 heads and 10 horns, as indicated in the book of Revelation."

From history, Europe was settled by ten barbarian - "barbed (or bearded) Aryan" - tribes (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli, Lombards, etc.) who migrated from the Middle East into Europe, many of them coming through the mountainous Caucasus region between the Caspian and Black seas from about 200 to 900 AD. (The Sassanids of Persia drove out the Arsacid dynasty of Parthia in 226 AD and the Parthians went west through the Caucasus to join their kinsmen in Scythia - fellow Israelites; see Parthia, Steven M. Collins, 2003, ISBN 0-9725849-2-7)

As I cover in Eschatology Note # 2 elsewhere on this forum, this was Israel - the so-called "lost ten tribes" - though careful reading of scripture shows that from the fourth Assyrian campaign of Essar-Haddon, all 12 tribes of Israel were deported by the Assyrians. (Then where did they go?) Three of these migrated European tribes maintained their independence from the Vatican - the "Holy Roman Empire" - until 538 AD when the last of them were subjugated to the "Bishop of Rome" by Charlemagne, its first emperor.

I fear the "search for the lost 10 tribes" is futile--that they actually perished by merging in with non-Jewish peoples. Once merged with other nations, they were no longer Israeli tribes.

On the other hand, some of each of the 12 tribes had settled in Judah before their deportation in around 586 BC. So, when the Jews returned from Babylon, under Perisan rule, all 12 tribes were represented in the "Jewish People." This fulfilled the Abrahamic Promise to preserve Israel, and the promise to retain all 12 tribal inheritances in a single national state.

The belief that the Roman Empire broke up into barbarian groups doesn't sound right to me. Certainly they merged in with the European peoples, but the imperial tradition of Rome continued through Constantinople in the East and Rome in the West. In the West, the Holy Roman Empire inherited the Western Roman Tradition, while in the East, the Byzantine Empire inherited the Eastern Roman Tradition.

All I can do is offer my own view until I find a better one. But thanks for offering your own views. Ultimately, we may come to a consensus.

Incidentally, I never get my ideas from my own original thoughts. They come from those who have come before. I just study them.

 

[DennisF]

I fear the "search for the lost 10 tribes" is futile--that they actually perished by merging in with non-Jewish peoples. Once merged with other nations, they were no longer Israeli tribes.

That is one popular speculation, but as for evidence? There is abundant evidence to the contrary. Start with archaeologist E. Raymond Capt's Missing Links in the Assyrian Tablets, at artisanpublishers.com. About the book:

In this authoritative book the author has attempted no more than a brief review of the origin and history of the Israelites; a survey of the Assyrian inscriptions and cuneiform tablets that record the deportations of Israel as related to Biblical and secular history; their sojourn in captivity and a synopsis of their migrations to their new homelands (British Isles, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Canada, America, etc.).​

The key question of history is: What happened to Greater Israel after the Assyrian deportations?

On the other hand, some of each of the 12 tribes had settled in Judah before their deportation in around 586 BC.

Are you confusing the different destinies and histories of the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel - that is, Greater Israel and Judea? They have quite different histories. The 586 BC date is associated with Judea, not Greater Israel, who had been deported by Assyria about 150 years before the Babylonian deportation of Judea.

So, when the Jews returned from Babylon, under Perisan rule, all 12 tribes were represented in the "Jewish People." This fulfilled the Abrahamic Promise to preserve Israel, and the promise to retain all 12 tribal inheritances in a single national state.

Not quite correct. Although it might be true that some residuals of all 12 tribes were in the Judean population, the vast bulk of Israelites of the 10 tribes of Greater Israel were already in Scythia, some yet in Parthia, and some to the east, toward Bactria and beyond. Others - Cimmerians - were on their way through Asia Minor (modern Turkiye) and from earlier migrations, in Iberia and elsewhere throughout Europe. Very early on, before Israel even reached the Levant, colonies of Israelites of the tribes of Dan and the Judahite clan of Zarah had launched out on from the Egyptian port in Alexandria to establish colonies in Argos (Greece) and Segunto (Spain). Sources include herodotus about the Scythians, Diodorus Siculus, Flavius Josephus, Poseidonius and others, as covered in various books on the Israelite migrations at
artisanpublishers.com, a printer that specializes in books on forgotten or underappreciated history. They can also be found on amazon.com but not in any one single place.

The belief that the Roman Empire broke up into barbarian groups doesn't sound right to me.

And it isn't. The barbarians who migrated into Europe between about 200 to 900 AD from the Near East were Israelite tribes, though they were somewhat merged with each other. The barbarians or barbed (bearded) Aryans were from Ariel, or in Hebrew, the "lion of God" which was the capital of the original Israelite kingdom, that of Jerusalem. One important characteristic of Israelite culture is that they did not intermix with non-Israelites, even in their apostasy. It is still possible to distinguish identifying characteristics of the original 12 tribes: the Franks were of Reuben, the Dutch of Zebulon, Icelanders of Benjamin, etc.

Certainly they merged in with the European peoples, but the imperial tradition of Rome continued through Constantinople in the East and Rome in the West. In the West, the Holy Roman Empire inherited the Western Roman Tradition, while in the East, the Byzantine Empire inherited the Eastern Roman Tradition.

This is only part of the story. Most Christians of the first centuries AD (until after the Reformation) were of apostolic pedigree but who did not recognize the authority of the Bishop of Rome (or Papacy after 600 AD) over them - the "wilderness church". They were immense but were considered heretical in Papal propaganda because they would not submit to Rome. For instance, three apostles spent time in England: Paul, Philip, and Simon Zelotes. If you read the usual Vatican-oriented church history books, they are extremely weak on the history of the rest of the church. One histiorian who has attempted to correct this is Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Truth Triumphant: the Church in the Wilderness and can be found and downloaded from the Web.

All I can do is offer my own view until I find a better one. But thanks for offering your own views. Ultimately, we may come to a consensus.

Incidentally, I never get my ideas from my own original thoughts. They come from those who have come before. I just study them.

I hope you look into the above references because you will find them mind-opening. They will make the Bible come alive by reconnecting it with the real world and not some dualistic Bible World. When you come to see that the major thread of human history driven by the West in the last several centuries is Israel, the biblical thread of an obscure population group in the Near East does not seem so unimportant any more.

 

[RandyPNW]

That is one popular speculation, but as for evidence? There is abundant evidence to the contrary. Start with archaeologist E. Raymond Capt's Missing Links in the Assyrian Tablets, at artisanpublishers.com. About the book:

In this authoritative book the author has attempted no more than a brief review of the origin and history of the Israelites; a survey of the Assyrian inscriptions and cuneiform tablets that record the deportations of Israel as related to Biblical and secular history; their sojourn in captivity and a synopsis of their migrations to their new homelands (British Isles, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Canada, America, etc.).​

The key question of history is: What happened to Greater Israel after the Assyrian deportations?

Are you confusing the different destinies and histories of the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel - that is, Greater Israel and Judea? They have quite different histories. The 586 BC date is associated with Judea, not Greater Israel, who had been deported by Assyria about 150 years before the Babylonian deportation of Judea.

No, I was referring to the Babylonian Judgment, 586 BC, after all 12 tribes had merged in with Judah. Jerusalem was the center of worship, and true worshipers from all 12 tribes gathered there, as opposed to worshiping foreign gods in Dan and Ephraim, or elsewhere.

The Assyrian judgment was approx. 721 BC, well before this. So when Babylon brought judgment to Judah, God was actually bringing judgment to all 12 tribes of Israel that had merged in with the Jewish People. And when they returned, it was a restoration, in effect, of all 12 tribes.

The northern Kingdom was judged forever, I think, because they had abandoned the worship of the true God. The land may be restored, but the lost 10 tribes are lost, as even the Jewish People see it, I believe?

When we look for evidence of Jewish DNA mixed in with European peoples, why should we be surprised that races mix? But a culture is dead when it has been permanently transferred over to the culture that it has merged in with. If European peoples with Jewish blood do not actually retain Jewish culture, they are not Jews.

Not quite correct. Although it might be true that some residuals of all 12 tribes were in the Judean population, the vast bulk of Israelites of the 10 tribes of Greater Israel were already in Scythia, some yet in Parthia, and some to the east, toward Bactria and beyond.

I was only saying that "residuals of all 12 tribes were in the Judean population." So I'm perfectly correct in this. My point is that the "vast bulk of the Israelites of the 10 tribes" were *lost* to history.

Others - Cimmerians - were on their way through Asia Minor (modern Turkiye) and from earlier migrations, in Iberia and elsewhere throughout Europe. Very early on, before Israel even reached the Levant, colonies of Israelites of the tribes of Dan and the Judahite clan of Zarah had launched out on from the Egyptian port in Alexandria to establish colonies in Argos (Greece) and Segunto (Spain). Sources include herodotus about the Scythians, Diodorus Siculus, Flavius Josephus, Poseidonius and others, as covered in various books on the Israelite migrations at
artisanpublishers.com, a printer that specializes in books on forgotten or underappreciated history. They can also be found on amazon.com but not in any one single place.

I've done a little tracing of Jewish migration. Doesn't seem significant. I've done the search--it came to a dead end for me. Beyond this it's a little like searching for the lost ark on Mt. Ararat.

And it isn't. The barbarians who migrated into Europe between about 200 to 900 AD from the Near East were Israelite tribes, though they were somewhat merged with each other. The barbarians or barbed (bearded) Aryans were from Ariel, or in Hebrew, the "lion of God" which was the capital of the original Israelite kingdom, that of Jerusalem. One important characteristic of Israelite culture is that they did not intermix with non-Israelites, even in their apostasy. It is still possible to distinguish identifying characteristics of the original 12 tribes: the Franks were of Reuben, the Dutch of Zebulon, Icelanders of Benjamin, etc.

I don't think so. Tribal distinctions began to be blurred as far back as the monarchy of Israel. I know some kept their genealogy, and the priests had to. Certainly Messiah had to.

But the original call of the 12 tribes was to become a nation. So looking for "Lost Tribes" is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. If we are to find a Jewish identity today, it will be among the Jewish People.

This is only part of the story. Most Christians of the first centuries AD (until after the Reformation) were of apostolic pedigree but who did not recognize the authority of the Bishop of Rome (or Papacy after 600 AD) over them - the "wilderness church". They were immense but were considered heretical in Papal propaganda because they would not submit to Rome. For instance, three apostles spent time in England: Paul, Philip, and Simon Zelotes. If you read the usual Vatican-oriented church history books, they are extremely weak on the history of the rest of the church. One histiorian who has attempted to correct this is Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Truth Triumphant: the Church in the Wilderness and can be found and downloaded from the Web.

It may be interesting material to dig into for details, but I was just looking at the overall sketch. Daniel had presented a 4th Kingdom that takes us up until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That has to be explained.

So it makes sense that the "2 Legs" of Rome (Nebuchadnezzar's Dream) would include the Western and Eastern Branches of the Roman Imperial Tradition throughout history.

I hope you look into the above references because you will find them mind-opening. They will make the Bible come alive by reconnecting it with the real world and not some dualistic Bible World.

Whoever said I look at the Bible as if it is a fake world??? Whoever said I look at this like a "dualistic Bible World," whatever that means?

When you come to see that the major thread of human history driven by the West in the last several centuries is Israel, the biblical thread of an obscure population group in the Near East does not seem so unimportant any more.

Israel is not the driver of world history, though it has played a critically important role in providing us with Judeo-Christian culture and Jesus himself. Abraham's posterity is both natural and spiritual. Israel was one small part of it. The nations of the world that have adopted Christianity is the biggest part of it.

 

[DennisF]

No, I was referring to the Babylonian Judgment, 586 BC, after all 12 tribes had merged in with Judah.

But they did not. This is a common yet completely erroneous assumption. How it was made is covered in my Eschatology Notes.

Jerusalem was the center of worship, and true worshipers from all 12 tribes gathered there, as opposed to worshiping foreign gods in Dan and Ephraim, or elsewhere.

The Assyrian judgment was approx. 721 BC, well before this. So when Babylon brought judgment to Judah, God was actually bringing judgment to all 12 tribes of Israel that had merged in with the Jewish People. And when they returned, it was a restoration, in effect, of all 12 tribes.

No; learn the history. Multiple scholars have contributed to it. The scripture itself says that Greater Israel and Judea will have different destinies. Have you read my Eschatology Notes # 2 elsewhere on this website? In it is this:

Everyone agrees that Europe was settled by "barbarian" tribes coming in from Asia from the early third century to about 900 AD, when migrations largely ceased, the barbarians settled down, and medieval European civilization evolved. Who were they? The word "barbarian" alone is indicative, as a contraction of "barbed" or bearded "Aryans". Who were the Aryans? See Isaiah 29; they were the residents of Ariel, which in Hebrew means "the lion of God" and is recognized in the OT as a name for Jerusalem. The barbarians were Israelites, who characteristically had beards and were far from being the primitive savages they were depicted as by the Romans. The Israelite Parthians were militarily superior to the Romans, having lost one battle against them in their history and having won all the rest.​

​

The most concentrated source of literature by the school of historians reconstructing European history that I know is at www.artisanpublishers.com, a printer specializing in books from this school of historians. (Start with the book by archaeologist E. Raymond Capt, Missing Links in the Assyrian Tablets.) I have searched the Web for rebuttals of the thesis that the Europeans are Israelites and that most of Assyrian-deported Israel went west to populate Europe, but have not found anything substantial - mostly scoffing since it does not fit Western history. When mainstream historians encounter this question, they are lost; the answer is somewhere "in the mists of history" they say. Yet in 2 Esdras 13 of the OT Apocrypha - books that were in the Protestant Bible until taken out relatively recently - tell us where Israelites migrated: to Arsareth, which is where ancient Scythia was located, northwest of the Black Sea. Ancient historians Herodotus, Diodorus Siculus, Flavius Josephus, Strabo, Poseidonius, and others fill in the history of the early migration of the Israelites into Europe. They were not called "Israelites" but by the Assyrians were called Gomri (after King Omri of Israel). Language morphs over time: Gomri => Gimri => Kymbri => Cimmerians, and by the Persians (and Medians) called the Sacae (after Isaac, as Yahweh said would happen - Genesis 49), and Skuthoi or Scythians by Greeks such as Herodotus.​

If you do not know any of this, then I recommend that you look into it because otherwise critical facts are missing from your understanding of Israelite history.

The northern Kingdom was judged forever, I think, because they had abandoned the worship of the true God. The land may be restored, but the lost 10 tribes are lost, as even the Jewish People see it, I believe?

When we look for evidence of Jewish DNA mixed in with European peoples, why should we be surprised that races mix? But a culture is dead when it has been permanently transferred over to the culture that it has merged in with. If European peoples with Jewish blood do not actually retain Jewish culture, they are not Jews.

DNA heredity tracing is in its infancy with many ambiguous results. But written history is more coherent and tells a clearer story.

I was only saying that "residuals of all 12 tribes were in the Judean population." So I'm perfectly correct in this. My point is that the "vast bulk of the Israelites of the 10 tribes" were *lost* to history.

They are not lost except in the popular understanding. Around 1800, British historian Sharon Turner meticulously traced the English back to cities in Media, then lost the trail. Ray Capt picks up in the late 20th century, reading the cuneiform tablets in the London Museum from the royal library of Ashurbanipal. If you do not know about any of this, you have much to learn that is essential to understanding the history of Israel.

I've done a little tracing of Jewish migration. Doesn't seem significant. I've done the search--it came to a dead end for me. Beyond this it's a little like searching for the lost ark on Mt. Ararat.

I am giving you references to Israelite, not Judean, migration to continue your search. It is obvious that you have not encountered anything too significant yet. If you cannot tell the difference between Israelite and "Jew" (Judean), you're starting at square one. The scriptures will show you the difference.

I don't think so. Tribal distinctions began to be blurred as far back as the monarchy of Israel. I know some kept their genealogy, and the priests had to. Certainly Messiah had to.


But the original call of the 12 tribes was to become a nation. So looking for "Lost Tribes" is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. If we are to find a Jewish identity today, it will be among the Jewish People.

It may be interesting material to dig into for details, but I was just looking at the overall sketch. Daniel had presented a 4th Kingdom that takes us up until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That has to be explained.

So it makes sense that the "2 Legs" of Rome (Nebuchadnezzar's Dream) would include the Western and Eastern Branches of the Roman Imperial Tradition throughout history.

Whoever said I look at the Bible as if it is a fake world??? Whoever said I look at this like a "dualistic Bible World," whatever that means?

Israel is not the driver of world history, though it has played a critically important role in providing us with Judeo-Christian culture and Jesus himself. Abraham's posterity is both natural and spiritual. Israel was one small part of it. The nations of the world that have adopted Christianity is the biggest part of it.

These claims will take on more meaning to you as you educate yourself on the history. Go to artisanpublishers.com They specialize in books on this topic.

 

[DennisF]

No, I was referring to the Babylonian Judgment, 586 BC, after all 12 tribes had merged in with Judah. Jerusalem was the center of worship, and true worshipers from all 12 tribes gathered there, as opposed to worshiping foreign gods in Dan and Ephraim, or elsewhere.

The Assyrian judgment was approx. 721 BC, well before this. So when Babylon brought judgment to Judah, God was actually bringing judgment to all 12 tribes of Israel that had merged in with the Jewish People. And when they returned, it was a restoration, in effect, of all 12 tribes.

The northern Kingdom was judged forever, I think, because they had abandoned the worship of the true God. The land may be restored, but the lost 10 tribes are lost, as even the Jewish People see it, I believe?

When we look for evidence of Jewish DNA mixed in with European peoples, why should we be surprised that races mix? But a culture is dead when it has been permanently transferred over to the culture that it has merged in with. If European peoples with Jewish blood do not actually retain Jewish culture, they are not Jews.

I was only saying that "residuals of all 12 tribes were in the Judean population." So I'm perfectly correct in this. My point is that the "vast bulk of the Israelites of the 10 tribes" were *lost* to history.

I've done a little tracing of Jewish migration. Doesn't seem significant. I've done the search--it came to a dead end for me. Beyond this it's a little like searching for the lost ark on Mt. Ararat.

I don't think so. Tribal distinctions began to be blurred as far back as the monarchy of Israel. I know some kept their genealogy, and the priests had to. Certainly Messiah had to.

But the original call of the 12 tribes was to become a nation. So looking for "Lost Tribes" is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. If we are to find a Jewish identity today, it will be among the Jewish People.

It may be interesting material to dig into for details, but I was just looking at the overall sketch. Daniel had presented a 4th Kingdom that takes us up until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That has to be explained.

So it makes sense that the "2 Legs" of Rome (Nebuchadnezzar's Dream) would include the Western and Eastern Branches of the Roman Imperial Tradition throughout history.

Whoever said I look at the Bible as if it is a fake world??? Whoever said I look at this like a "dualistic Bible World," whatever that means?

Israel is not the driver of world history, though it has played a critically important role in providing us

No, I was referring to the Babylonian Judgment, 586 BC, after all 12 tribes had merged in with Judah. Jerusalem was the center of worship, and true worshipers from all 12 tribes gathered there, as opposed to worshiping foreign gods in Dan and Ephraim, or elsewhere.

The Assyrian judgment was approx. 721 BC, well before this. So when Babylon brought judgment to Judah, God was actually bringing judgment to all 12 tribes of Israel that had merged in with the Jewish People. And when they returned, it was a restoration, in effect, of all 12 tribes.

The northern Kingdom was judged forever, I think, because they had abandoned the worship of the true God. The land may be restored, but the lost 10 tribes are lost, as even the Jewish People see it, I believe?

When we look for evidence of Jewish DNA mixed in with European peoples, why should we be surprised that races mix? But a culture is dead when it has been permanently transferred over to the culture that it has merged in with. If European peoples with Jewish blood do not actually retain Jewish culture, they are not Jews.

I was only saying that "residuals of all 12 tribes were in the Judean population." So I'm perfectly correct in this. My point is that the "vast bulk of the Israelites of the 10 tribes" were *lost* to history.

I've done a little tracing of Jewish migration. Doesn't seem significant. I've done the search--it came to a dead end for me. Beyond this it's a little like searching for the lost ark on Mt. Ararat.

I don't think so. Tribal distinctions began to be blurred as far back as the monarchy of Israel. I know some kept their genealogy, and the priests had to. Certainly Messiah had to.

But the original call of the 12 tribes was to become a nation. So looking for "Lost Tribes" is an exercise in futility, in my opinion. If we are to find a Jewish identity today, it will be among the Jewish People.

It may be interesting material to dig into for details, but I was just looking at the overall sketch. Daniel had presented a 4th Kingdom that takes us up until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. That has to be explained.

So it makes sense that the "2 Legs" of Rome (Nebuchadnezzar's Dream) would include the Western and Eastern Branches of the Roman Imperial Tradition throughout history.

Whoever said I look at the Bible as if it is a fake world??? Whoever said I look at this like a "dualistic Bible World," whatever that means?

Israel is not the driver of world history, though it has played a critically important role in providing us with Judeo-Christian culture and Jesus himself. Abraham's posterity is both natural and spiritual. Israel was one small part of it. The nations of the world that have adopted Christianity is the biggest part of it.

with Judeo-Christian culture and Jesus himself. Abraham's posterity is both natural and spiritual. Israel was one small part of it. The nations of the world that have adopted Christianity is the biggest part of it.

Merely by making these assertions does not show that they are true. Where are the particulars of history to back them up? I really believe you should read some of the books on the topic, beginning with Ray Capt's Missing Links. Informed opinions are more compelling.

 

[RandyPNW]

Merely by making these assertions does not show that they are true. Where are the particulars of history to back them up? I really believe you should read some of the books on the topic, beginning with Ray Capt's Missing Links. Informed opinions are more compelling.

2 Chronicles 11.13 The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. 14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property and came to Judah and Jerusalem, because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord 15 when he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. 16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their ancestors. 17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, following the ways of David and Solomon during this time.

I wasn't making mere assertions--I was referring to Scriptural truth, and when asked to provide proof I'm willing to offer proof. All 12 Tribes were merged together in the Southern Kingdom of Judah. The Northern Kingdom of Israel formed alternative gods in Ephraim and in Dan, and the priests there apostacized.

Ultimately, God cast that Kingdom out forever, because they not only abandoned God temporarily, but they abandoned God permanently. And so, God abandoned them permanently.

It was different in Judah. Though they were equally guilty of idolatry and abandonment of their God some of them, following the Babylonian Judgment, were willing to return and repent of their sins. This is what became the modern Jewish People of today.

They were, however, judged again in 70 AD, followed by the Jewish Diaspora. God, in the present age, has only reserved to Himself a remnant of faith, of those who convert to Christ. But a time is coming, according to prophecy, when Israel will be restored, as a whole nation, to their true faith.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Following the Babylonian Captivity, it was primarily those who survived from the Southern Kingdom of Judah who returned to Israel in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. They restored true worship in Jerusalem, and their worship there continued to represent all 12 Tribes, even though the people of the Northern Kingdom were gone away into exile, and no longer included in this restoration.

Ezra 6.17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel.

 

[RandyPNW]

The scripture itself says that Greater Israel and Judea will have different destinies. Have you read my Eschatology Notes # 2 elsewhere on this website? In it is this:

Everyone agrees that Europe was settled by "barbarian" tribes coming in from Asia from the early third century to about 900 AD, when migrations largely ceased, the barbarians settled down, and medieval European civilization evolved. Who were they? The word "barbarian" alone is indicative, as a contraction of "barbed" or bearded "Aryans". Who were the Aryans? See Isaiah 29; they were the residents of Ariel, which in Hebrew means "the lion of God" and is recognized in the OT as a name for Jerusalem. The barbarians were Israelites, who characteristically had beards and were far from being the primitive savages they were depicted as by the Romans. The Israelite Parthians were militarily superior to the Romans, having lost one battle against them in their history and having won all the rest.​

You claimed this was "biblical," and then you proceed to argue your "notes," which do not make a biblical argument. You simply use the Bible to back up your own claims. The Bible itself makes no such claim.

What is your source for claiming "Aryans were the residents of Ariel," or that the "barbarians were Israelites?"

​

The most concentrated source of literature by the school of historians reconstructing European history that I know is at www.artisanpublishers.com, a printer specializing in books from this school of historians. (Start with the book by archaeologist E. Raymond Capt, Missing Links in the Assyrian Tablets.) I have searched the Web for rebuttals of the thesis that the Europeans are Israelites and that most of Assyrian-deported Israel went west to populate Europe, but have not found anything substantial - mostly scoffing since it does not fit Western history.​

I have a set of Penguin books on the theoretical origins of aboriginal peoples and their possible migrations. It's an interesting subject to me, but hardly worthy of determining biblical theology on this matter.

When mainstream historians encounter this question, they are lost; the answer is somewhere "in the mists of history" they say. Yet in 2 Esdras 13 of the OT Apocrypha - books that were in the Protestant Bible until taken out relatively recently - tell us where Israelites migrated: to Arsareth, which is where ancient Scythia was located, northwest of the Black Sea. Ancient historians Herodotus, Diodorus Siculus, Flavius Josephus, Strabo, Poseidonius, and others fill in the history of the early migration of the Israelites into Europe. They were not called "Israelites" but by the Assyrians were called Gomri (after King Omri of Israel). Language morphs over time: Gomri => Gimri => Kymbri => Cimmerians, and by the Persians (and Medians) called the Sacae (after Isaac, as Yahweh said would happen - Genesis 49), and Skuthoi or Scythians by Greeks such as Herodotus.​

I'm suspicious of "word morphs" like Meshech means Moscow, as Hal Lindsey used to write. But I'm not really a "language person"--I leave that to my brother. Cognates are not just sound-alikes--they are literally part of language evolution.

Obviously, the northern tribes went away into Assyria. Some of them merged in with the culture, and some remained separate and later relocated elsewhere, after Assyria was defeated. Most likely, they ultimately merged in with their home culture, or rejoined the Jewish People later in history.

But the Bible relegates these northern tribes to annihilation as distinct tribal groups. At any rate, the original idea God had was not for "tribes," but ultimately, for a "nation."

DNA heredity tracing is in its infancy with many ambiguous results. But written history is more coherent and tells a clearer story.

My point was that DNA does not determine culture or tribe. It just references your biological origins. God isn't restoring trace biological origins of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He has preserved the Jewish culture until the time of their restoration to nationhood.

I am giving you references to Israelite, not Judean, migration to continue your search.

I'm not searching the fate of the Northern Kingdom. I've already done a little of that, and ended up nowhere. Most importantly, neither the Jews themselves nor the Bible itself substantiates any need for it. It is, in my view, a worthless "rabbit hole," and I don't care to be buried there!

It is obvious that you have not encountered anything too significant yet. If you cannot tell the difference between Israelite and "Jew" (Judean), you're starting at square one. The scriptures will show you the difference.

That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think? You think you're the only one who knows the difference between an "Israelite" and a "Jew?" I think I learned that one way back in around 1972 or 1973!

 

[DennisF]

2 Chronicles 11.13 The priests and Levites from all their districts throughout Israel sided with him. 14 The Levites even abandoned their pasturelands and property and came to Judah and Jerusalem, because Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them as priests of the Lord 15 when he appointed his own priests for the high places and for the goat and calf idols he had made. 16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their ancestors. 17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam son of Solomon three years, following the ways of David and Solomon during this time.

I wasn't making mere assertions--I was referring to Scriptural truth, and when asked to provide proof I'm willing to offer proof. All 12 Tribes were merged together in the Southern Kingdom of Judah. The Northern Kingdom of Israel formed alternative gods in Ephraim and in Dan, and the priests there apostacized.

Read your cite. It says that some Levites joined Judea. This is well-known, that the Levites were distributed between Judea and Greater Israel. However, your cite does not establish your assertion. It does not say that all of the (10 tribes of Greater Israel migrated to Judea. And they were not.

Ultimately, God cast that Kingdom out forever, because they not only abandoned God temporarily, but they abandoned God permanently. And so, God abandoned them permanently.

Infinity-words like "forever" simply do not appear in scripture. Translators put them in but they are not in the Hebrew way of thinking. They come from Greek philosophy. Furthermore, what do you do with 2 Esdras 13? Or in what YHWH claims about Israel? They are divorced by Yahweh, but various scriptures (see if you can find them) affirm that Israel is unfaithful but God is faithful in fulfilling his promises. The Apostle Paul also makes this point. Israel also has a destiny with God.

It was different in Judah. Though they were equally guilty of idolatry and abandonment of their God some of them, following the Babylonian Judgment, were willing to return and repent of their sins. This is what became the modern Jewish People of today.

You don't know that unless you can resolve the question of who the Jews are. It is a live dispute nowadays. Scripture calls the people of Judea Judeans. (See both Hebrew and Greek; in Greek, the word translates to Judean. For example, Romans 10:12: "Jew" is Ἰουδαίου which is Joudaion, pronounced "Judean") See my Eschatology Note # 2 for more detail on this.

They were, however, judged again in 70 AD, followed by the Jewish Diaspora. God, in the present age, has only reserved to Himself a remnant of faith, of those who convert to Christ. But a time is coming, according to prophecy, when Israel will be restored, as a whole nation, to their true faith.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Note what it says. The disciples were expecting a restoration of Israel because they knew the OT. Jesus did not deny it, but implicitly confirmed it by giving some detail on the timing of the restoration. By the way, the "ends of the earth" is understood in the setting as the British Isles. The second Christian church, after Jerusalem, was in Avalon, near what is now Glastonbury, in ancient Dumnonia, now Cornwall and Devon.

Following the Babylonian Captivity, it was primarily those who survived from the Southern Kingdom of Judah who returned to Israel in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. They restored true worship in Jerusalem, and their worship there continued to represent all 12 Tribes, even though the people of the Northern Kingdom were gone away into exile, and no longer included in this restoration.

Yes, the northern kingdom - what I distinguish from all of Israel by calling it "Greater Israel" - was no longer in the land originally allotted to their tribes. So where were they? This is where you need to start reading some of the references I gave, to answer the question: What happened to the Israelites after they were deported by the Assyrians? The answer is known and you can know it too.

Ezra 6.17 For the dedication of this house of God they offered a hundred bulls, two hundred rams, four hundred male lambs and, as a sin offering for all Israel, twelve male goats, one for each of the tribes of Israel.

They make atonement for all of Israel but this does not support your claim that all of Israel is in Judea.

 

[RandyPNW]

Read your cite. It says that some Levites joined Judea. This is well-known, that the Levites were distributed between Judea and Greater Israel. However, your cite does not establish your assertion. It does not say that all of the (10 tribes of Greater Israel migrated to Judea. And they were not.

I said that *remnants* of all 12 tribes went down into the Kingdom of Judah. The following did not just say the "priests" went:

2 Chron 11.16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem.

Furthermore, what do you do with 2 Esdras 13? Or in what YHWH claims about Israel? They are divorced by Yahweh, but various scriptures (see if you can find them) affirm that Israel is unfaithful but God is faithful in fulfilling his promises. The Apostle Paul also makes this point. Israel also has a destiny with God.

I don't consider 2 Esdras canonical. God said He would restore Israel, but that did not include the 10 tribes that abandoned God for other gods. Some in Judah, however, had turned to idolatry but were willing to repent and to return to God. So Judah was restored, which included those from all 12 tribes.

But the northern Kingdom was permanently removed. We don't hear of that Kingdom again.

You don't know that unless you can resolve the question of who the Jews are. It is a live dispute nowadays. Scripture calls the people of Judea Judeans. (See both Hebrew and Greek; in Greek, the word translates to Judean. For example, Romans 10:12: "Jew" is Ἰουδαίου which is Joudaion, pronounced "Judean") See my Eschatology Note # 2 for more detail on this.

It's easy to know who a "Jew" is. It's one whose Mother is Jewish, or one who converts to Judaism. Basically, a Jew is one who belongs to the Jewish culture.

Note what it says. The disciples were expecting a restoration of Israel because they knew the OT. Jesus did not deny it, but implicitly confirmed it by giving some detail on the timing of the restoration. By the way, the "ends of the earth" is understood in the setting as the British Isles. The second Christian church, after Jerusalem, was in Avalon, near what is now Glastonbury, in ancient Dumnonia, now Cornwall and Devon.

I don't believe in British Israelism. My wife is British--she is not Jewish! My step kids certainly aren't Jewish! My uncle spoke Yiddish, but he did that as a German way back in perhaps the area of Ukraine. None of that made him Jewish either!

I'm not interested in your search for all things Jewish. But I do believe the Bible taught that Judah came to contain remnants of all 12 tribes, fulfilling God's promise to restore the entire nation, consisting of all original 12 tribes.

I will tell you what I believe though. I believe that God called the UK, just as He called Israel. Christian nations, and England was one of the 1st, were just as called as Israel was. Britain is very much like Israel in God's eyes, having been a dedicated Christian nation, producing some of the greatest Christians in history.

I'm very proud of my wife's British heritage. There is absolutely no reason to drop down steps to become a smaller nation, namely Israel. Israel has its great heritage, and Great Britain has theirs. Me--I'm sort of lost as a grandchild of immigrant grandparents in the US.

 

[DennisF]

I said that *remnants* of all 12 tribes went down into the Kingdom of Judah. The following did not just say the "priests" went:

2 Chron 11.16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem.

A few stragglers from every northern tribe is not very significant, especially in view of the subsequent history of Greater Israel after the Assyrian deportation. They were a major population group, as Yahweh reiterated multiple times in the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and through the prophets such as Hosea. God deals in major things, not trifles.

I don't consider 2 Esdras canonical. God said He would restore Israel, but that did not include the 10 tribes that abandoned God for other gods. Some in Judah, however, had turned to idolatry but were willing to repent and to return to God. So Judah was restored, which included those from all 12 tribes.

The number of Judeans who returned from babylonian captivity was about 5 % of them. (Nehemiah gives the number.) Merely repeating "Judah was restored, which included those from all 12 tribes" does not make it so. Repeating an unsupported (and unsupportable) claim does not make it true.
2 Esdras might not be on your approval list but it is part of the corpus of history, from Ezra, that fills in some of the answer to the question of what happened to Israel after they were deported. You haven't even begun to address that question in any evidential sense. You have done nothing to rebut the historical evidence for their migration into Europe.

But the northern Kingdom was permanently removed. We don't hear of that Kingdom again.

Who do you mean, "we"? Apparently you have not and that is what is lacking. Get a copy of the book by W.H. Bennett, The Story of Celto-Saxon Israel (ISBN 0-8187-0288-5) and refute his historic facts and arguments built on them, if you can.

It's easy to know who a "Jew" is. It's one whose Mother is Jewish, or one who converts to Judaism. Basically, a Jew is one who belongs to the Jewish culture.

If "a Jew is one who belongs to the Jewish culture" is your definition of "Jew" I do not disagree with it as far as it goes, but it is not a definition of a "Jew" but is only a description. Jewish culture came into Europe in the Middle Ages, but where Jews came from is a hot point of debate even to this day. So your "easy" description is not definitive.

I don't believe in British Israelism. My wife is British--she is not Jewish! My step kids certainly aren't Jewish! My uncle spoke Yiddish, but he did that as a German way back in perhaps the area of Ukraine. None of that made him Jewish either!

You are conflating being "Jewish" with being an Israelite. No wonder this conversation is going nowhere!

I'm not interested in your search for all things Jewish. But I do believe the Bible taught that Judah came to contain remnants of all 12 tribes, fulfilling God's promise to restore the entire nation, consisting of all original 12 tribes.

I can see that you are not only conflating language (I have said nothing about "Jews" or "British-Israelism", whatever that is) but you are not showing any interest in broadening your database of history regarding post-deportation Israel. Too bad.

I will tell you what I believe though. I believe that God called the UK, just as He called Israel. Christian nations, and England was one of the 1st, were just as called as Israel was. Britain is very much like Israel in God's eyes, having been a dedicated Christian nation, producing some of the greatest Christians in history.

I do not care so much what you believe; I care what is true, and you have not done anything but repeat your claim, without any significant evidence or refutation of Israelites migrating into Europe, for which the historic evidence is rather abundant. Too bad. Closed minds harbor conceits.

 

[RandyPNW]

A few stragglers from every northern tribe is not very significant, especially in view of the subsequent history of Greater Israel after the Assyrian deportation. They were a major population group, as Yahweh reiterated multiple times in the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and through the prophets such as Hosea. God deals in major things, not trifles.

Actually God does major in "trifles."
Zech 4.10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”

The number of Judeans who returned from babylonian captivity was about 5 % of them. (Nehemiah gives the number.) Merely repeating "Judah was restored, which included those from all 12 tribes" does not make it so. Repeating an unsupported (and unsupportable) claim does not make it true.

Of course it doesn't make it true just because I say it or believe it. It's my best guess as to what happened, based on the history I've read and based on the words of God on the subject. I have no axe to grind.

You, on the other hand, seem to have an agenda. You seem to want to prove that Britian is Israel, ie British Israelism.

Who do you mean, "we"? Apparently you have not and that is what is lacking. Get a copy of the book by W.H. Bennett, The Story of Celto-Saxon Israel (ISBN 0-8187-0288-5) and refute his historic facts and arguments built on them, if you can.

If it becomes more important to me to do so I may. Right now, it isn't enough to stir the waters...

If "a Jew is one who belongs to the Jewish culture" is your definition of "Jew" I do not disagree with it as far as it goes, but it is not a definition of a "Jew" but is only a description. Jewish culture came into Europe in the Middle Ages, but where Jews came from is a hot point of debate even to this day. So your "easy" description is not definitive.

I spent 10 years on a Usenet forum discussing the iron wall between Judaism and Christianity. I'm secure with my definition, as far as the Jews themselves go.

You are conflating being "Jewish" with being an Israelite. No wonder this conversation is going nowhere!

Jews and Israelis are in fact interchangeable terms. If you don't understand that, I can see why your agenda keeps you from understanding this issue better.

I can see that you are not only conflating language (I have said nothing about "Jews" or "British-Israelism", whatever that is) but you are not showing any interest in broadening your database of history regarding post-deportation Israel. Too bad.

It's transparent where you're coming from... As I said, I've dealt with these kinds of issues for a long time. For some strange reason, a lot of Gentiles want to be Jews!

Zech 8.23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

I do not care so much what you believe; I care what is true, and you have not done anything but repeat your claim, without any significant evidence or refutation of Israelites migrating into Europe, for which the historic evidence is rather abundant. Too bad. Closed minds harbor conceits.

I share your love for demographics and history, but don't share your burden, which does not appear to me to be bible-based. So I refuse to go down rabbit holes with very little value in doing so.

I will repeat: The Israelis of the 10 northern tribes obviously went somewhere after the Assyrians carried them off captive. There is scant information on them, though there is evidence for the idea that they emerged in various places other than in Assyria, after it was conquered.

Since so little is known of them, it is likely they simply integrated in with a culture they lived in or along side. That's when they stopped being "tribes of Israel." Or, they found the Jews deported by the Romans and joined them.

At any rate, "tribes" ceased a very long time ago, and are no longer significant. The former 10 northern tribes are no longer called "Israel," while the 2 southern tribes are called "Judah." This is a search in order to find something that proves the missing ark of the covenant still exists. I jest, but I do respect your efforts to learn actual history.