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The myth of the "Nested Hierarchy of Common Descent"

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'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA
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Homologous anatomy can be organized by non-homologous genes.
That's not supported by any source you've cited.
Homologous genes can organize non-homologous anatomy.
Right. Novel function can arise from existing genes. As we've known for a long time. Examples include the evolution of the bacterial flagellum from a type 3 secretory structure, an old response to the irreducible complexity argument.
 
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The Cadet

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Yes, I'm sure you believe any information which paints Evolution in an uncertain light is not *meaningful* for the public. The public only needs to see highly sanitized "Why Evolution is True" PR info-packets. They don't need to see any of those pesky facts that will only confuse the issue.

And it's not complex at all.

Well you clearly haven't understood it very well.
 
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The Cadet

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Typical non-response because you have no counter-argument.
What? It's just boring, I'm sorry. You're horribly mangling the science and even when actual experts tell you how wrong you are, even when they're telling you how wrong you are about claims about what they would say, you just ignore them. In this case, you clearly don't understand the problem, as you think non-homologous genes form homologous structures (rather than analogous structures).
 
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lifepsyop

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What? It's just boring, I'm sorry. You're horribly mangling the science and even when actual experts tell you how wrong you are, even when they're telling you how wrong you are about claims about what they would say, you just ignore them. In this case, you clearly don't understand the problem, as you think non-homologous genes form homologous structures (rather than analogous structures).


Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...

http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
 
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The Cadet

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Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...

http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
I retract my previous statement. I was in error.
 
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Yes it is. So you're denying that Homologous anatomy can be organized by non-homologous genes?

State your position.
Hold on, let's clarify terms,

A tetrapod limb is formed by signaling from Tbx genes. All homologous tetrapod limbs will be signaled by Tbx genes.

Now, you switched terms to "organized by" and i just want to make sure you aren't going to pop in with some silliness like, "ah! but another gene is also involved!"

But as long as we are clear that my position is that all homologous tetrapod limbs will be formed by signaling from Tbx genes, we understand each other.
 
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Oncedeceived

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That's not supported by any source you've cited.

What isn't supported by his sources?

Right. Novel function can arise from existing genes. As we've known for a long time. Examples include the evolution of the bacterial flagellum from a type 3 secretory structure, an old response to the irreducible complexity argument.
Provide substantiation on the bacterial flagellum arising from a type III secretory structure rather than the other way around.
 
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Loudmouth

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As usual. Hand-waving and insults, and dodging my responses because you have no counter-argument. Have you made one substantial post this entire thread?

Hand waving is exactly what you are doing. All of the evidence is consistent with the predictions made by the theory of evolution. You hand wave that evidence away because you have invented a fantasy world where there is evidence that doesn't fit the theory.

My counter argument is that none of the evidence you speak of has been found. In science, we deal with the real evidence, not imaginary evidence.
 
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Loudmouth

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You're jumping around. I was addressing your claim that evolutionists would have to invoke convergent genes for convergent anatomy. I explained why they wouldn't. You dodged.

Show where they have invoked this reasoning to explain the evidence you claim would falsify evolution.

Otherwise, all you have is a fantasy world. In the real world, the evidence is consistent with evolution.

You're wrong. There are many examples of assumed homologous anatomy being organized by non-homologous genes, and homologous genes producing non-homologous anatomy. Here we see again that Evolution can completely fail predictions yet still the data is accommodated.

When is homology not homology? -Wray, Abouheif 1998
Although genes have specific phenotypic consequences in a given species, this functional relationship can clearly change during the course of evolution. Many cases of evolutionary dissociations between homologous genes and homologous morphological features are now known. These dissociations have interesting and important implications for understanding the genetic basis for evolutionary change in morphology.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9914205

This is referred to as the "Homology Problem". It's been known by evolutionists since the 1970's yet the public is never made aware of it, for obvious reasons.

How do you explain the correlation between phylogenies based on morphology and DNA sequence?
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes, I'm sure you believe any information which paints Evolution in an uncertain light is not *meaningful* for the public. The public only needs to see highly sanitized "Why Evolution is True" PR info-packets. They don't need to see any of those pesky facts that will only confuse the issue.

And it's not complex at all.

Homologous anatomy can be organized by non-homologous genes.
Homologous genes can organize non-homologous anatomy.

It's very simple, but it's embarrassing for evolutionists because it reveals the self-contradictory nature of their whole basis for inferring homology. So of course it gets swept under the rug just like everything else that casts uncertainty on evolutionary claims.

It's also a good example showing that Evolution theory is not really being tested. Evolution is an amorphous fog enveloping whatever data it comes across.


Your fantasy world does not trump the real world.
 
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Loudmouth

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Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...

http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf

In what percentage of cases is this true?
 
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Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...

http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
Alright, let's take a look:



"homologous structures (segments) are present but at least one homologous gene no longer contributes to their development"

What this paper is talking about is a complex development of a body plan controlled by numerous genes that no longer uses one of those genes, yet the overall structure still develops due to the remaining genes.

Now, lets read a bit more on that eve gene as I'm a few years removed from my entomology training:
http://www.sdbonline.org/sites/fly/segment/evenskp1.htm

"One of EVE's primary functions is regulation of segment polarity through EVE's indirect regulation of engrailed. In odd parasegments, graded expression of eve establishes the en stripes by setting the boundaries of the activator paired and the repressors runt and sloppy paired (Fujioka, 1995). Expression of en in even parasegments results from activation by Fushi tarazu (with Ftz-f1 as a cofactor). Only the most anterior cells of each ftz stripe express en and this restriction is dependent uponodd-skipped and naked."

And hold on again, getting called away. I'll finish the post later, but that should start laying the groundwork for some of the trouble with your position.

And back.

Let's also look at a rundown of insect segmentation generally:
http://what-when-how.com/insects/segmentation-insects/

I know, a generalized explain-stuff website isn't the most robust source, but it's the most clearly written rundown I was able to locate quickly and user friendliness is probably good in this discussion. If you feel prepared to tackle denser writing, i can provide a more comprehensive link.

Anyway, this breaks down the phases of segmentation:

The Gap Genes
The gap genes are so named because mutations in this class of genes cause deletions of several contiguous segments causing a “gap” in the resulting larva. The gap genes read the informational gradients set up by the maternal genes and along with cross-regulatory inputs from other gap genes, become expressed in broad but well-defined domains across the early embryo that roughly correspond to the regions that are deleted in the mutants. All of the gap genes encode transcription factors that act together to regulate expression of the downstream pair-rule genes.

The Pair-Rule Genes
The expression and function of the pair-rule genes reveals the first periodic patterns in the Drosophila embryo. Like the gap genes, the pair-rule class of genes was originally defined through their loss of function phenotypes—in this case, deletions with a two-segment periodicity. Accordingly, most of the pair-rule genes go through a phase of expression consisting of seven stripes—corresponding to a two-segment periodicity—beginning at the syncitial blastoderm stage of the embryo and persisting through cellularization. When the striped pattern for one such pair-rule gene, even-skipped . was first observed, it was thought that the beautiful regularity of the pattern was due to some sort of chemical oscillation that could be modeled with reaction-diffusion equations. Instead, it turns out that stripes are specified individually by the upstream gap and maternal genes acting directly on the DNA regulatory regions that control even-skipped expression. The pair-rule genes encode transcription factors that work together to regulate the final level of the segmentation hierarchy, the segment polarity genes.

The Segment Polarity Genes
The segment polarity genes were also originally identified in genetic screens and named for their mutant phenotypes, which show defects in every segment. These genes are generally expressed in patterns of segmental stripes and include not just transcription factors, but also various receptors, ligands, and enzymes that are used in cell-cell communication, and act to maintain and further refine the pattern of segments that has been elaborated.

The Homeotic Genes
A final category of genes, the homeotic genes, do not act to produce segments, but rather give identity to the segments. Mutations in these genes result in the transformation of one or more segments to the identity of another segment. For example, certain loss of function mutations in proboscipedia cause legs to appear in the place of the adult labial palps. The homeotic genes are primarily regulated by the gap genes, although pair-rule and segment polarity genes also have an important role in defining the precise boundaries of homeotic gene expression. All the homeotic genes encode a family of closely related transcription factors and, in Drosophila, are organized into two complexes on one of the chromosomes. Interestingly, the expression of the home-otic genes along the body axis and their arrangement in the genome are roughly co-linear; homeotic genes expressed in anterior segments of the embryo are situated 3 . in the complex, while genes expressed in the posterior are 5 . in the complex. This co-linear arrangement is highly conserved throughout the bilaterian animals, but the reasons for this chromosomal arrangement are not fully understood.

Now, you'll notice that pair rule signaling isn't the first group of genes involved. it kicks in after the Gap genes.

It also gets into some of the different mechanisms for controlling segment formation, which might be interesting to dig into to determine if eve is utilized in all forms, or could be a late arrival to this party.

I hope we can agree that one gene that helps regulation of one specific part of segmentation no longer having that role is VERY different than a homologous structure that does not share homologous genes with other organisms with those homologous structures generally.

Now, there is something interesting I noticed. The paper states that eve is part of the pair rule group of genes rather than segment polarity as my link states. This could be a slightly different use in fruit flies, which my link was discussing specifically, but if someone here is better with entomology than me, I'd love to get some more info on it.

I'm going on way too long, so I'll stop here.
 
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In what percentage of cases is this true?
Oh, I'd take one example of it if it were a good example. One gene that kicks on mid way through not kicking on in those zones at those times isn't necessarily going to mess up everything all the other genes are doing.
 
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Loudmouth

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Oh, I'd take one example of it if it were a good example. One gene that kicks on mid way through not kicking on in those zones at those times isn't necessarily going to mess up everything all the other genes are doing.

In the end, lifepsyop tries to feign ignorance in order to have an excuse for ignoring the evidence. If he can't understand why the femur of a chimp and human are homologous while the wing of a bat and moth are analogous, then there really isn't any help that we can give him. Sometimes, people have to remove their own blinders.
 
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lifepsyop

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Oh, I'd take one example of it if it were a good example. One gene that kicks on mid way through not kicking on in those zones at those times isn't necessarily going to mess up everything all the other genes are doing.

Here's another example from the paper:

"Other cases have been documented within the insects. Sexlethal (Sxl) is a ‘master regulatory gene’ that controls sex determination in Drosophila melanogaster through a well characterized pathway of alternative splicing. This pathway appears to be present in at least two other Drosophila species, based on alternate splicing of transcripts. In several other dipterans — including Ceratitis capitata and Musca domestica — however, Sxl is almost certainly not involved in sex determination: although the gene is present, it is not alternatively spliced and is not expressed at the correct time....

...Once again, we can summarize these examples with a quotation from de Beer, “homologous structures need not be controlled by homologous genes”."


http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
 
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