The myth of religious violence

[ken777]

Makes sense.

But even in this scenario, religion is marshaled to get decent people to behave atrociously.

Th motivation is usually fear, and a great many things have been invoked to cause fear and a violent response.

 

[bhsmte]

If you want to picture religion as a mere tool and excuse for pursuing non-religious goals (which I am quite happy to agree with) you are blowing the notion out of the window that religion is an effective moral motivator.

This exactly!

Religion is man made, which is why we have so many religions and denominations of the same. Man will design and create what suits his needs (psychologically) and sometimes, will perform certain acts because others disagree with him and that does not sit well with them.

Lastly, I will say this; for those people who lean towards the more radical, it is individual psychology that drives them towards certain religions and religious beliefs that fit their psyche.

 

[ken777]

I don't think many Christians would argue that religion is an effective moral motivator in itself. Unless the ideas are personally adopted as a code of conduct, they remain an intellectual interest.

 

[Meowzltov]

You don't seem to pay attention. I said "witches in any sense" is a religious concept. So, yes, there may be people that the religious have considered 'good witches'.

Is la Curandera a religious concept? The whole reason I brought up la Curandera is that it is a secular positive analogous concept.

It's really kind of sad: when people need healing she is la Curandera, but if she gets too powerful for the local mysogynists, she becomes to them la Bruja (the witch). It goes to document my point that charges of witchcraft are less a religious thing than a mysogyny thing.

 

[Meowzltov]

But even in this scenario, religion is marshaled to get decent people to behave atrociously.

Yes. Religion is one of many excuses martialed. I can also think of things like "We are fighting for democracy," and "This is the war to end all wars."

 

[SteveB28]

Is la Curandera a religious concept? The whole reason I brought up la Curandera is that it is a secular positive analogous concept.

It's really kind of sad: when people need healing she is la Curandera, but if she gets too powerful for the local mysogynists, she becomes to them la Bruja (the witch). It goes to document my point that charges of witchcraft are less a religious thing than a mysogyny thing.

Yes, the concept of the supernatural is a religious one!

 

[SteveB28]

Yes. Religion is one of many excuses martialed. I can also think of things like "We are fighting for democracy," and "This is the war to end all wars."

Your "but, but, but" response does not, however, alter the realisation that you agree the religion causes violence.

 

[Meowzltov]

Your "but, but, but" response does not, however, alter the realisation that you agree the religion causes violence.

Religion causes violence on rare occasions. It is hardly a major cause of violence that it is made out to be. It is usually an excuse for violence, which is not the same thing.

 

[SteveB28]

Religion causes violence on rare occasions. It is hardly a major cause of violence that it is made out to be. It is usually an excuse for violence, which is not the same thing.

Oh, I see........we get there in increments, yes?

You do realise that the collection of stories upon which your particular religion is based is a litany of of violent behaviour? It is not a difficult chore to find an "excuse" for just about any type of cruelty that men might choose to inflict upon one another.

 

[Chany]

Yes, the concept of the supernatural is a religious one!

Sorry, I'm going to stop you right there. If we are going to define anything that does not fit underneath a very specific naturalist worldview as "religious", then we might as well label anything that is not physical "religious", like morality and pretty much any abstract notion of the mind.

The idea of magic is not exactly a religious one: I can easily imagine worlds where magic exists but religion does not. Therefore, I can imagine a world where witches exist but religion does not.

 

[SteveB28]

Sorry, I'm going to stop you right there. If we are going to define anything that does not fit underneath a very specific naturalist worldview as "religious", then we might as well label anything that is not physical "religious", like morality and pretty much any abstract notion of the mind.

The idea of magic is not exactly a religious one: I can easily imagine worlds where magic exists but religion does not. Therefore, I can imagine a world where witches exist but religion does not.

Abstract notions can still be part of the real world. The supernatural and religious beliefs have similar origins. The degree of fear generated by a belief in 'witches' that results in a desire to kill them is entirely religiously motivated.

 

[Meowzltov]

Oh, I see........we get there in increments, yes?

You do realise that the collection of stories upon which your particular religion is based is a litany of of violent behaviour? It is not a difficult chore to find an "excuse" for just about any type of cruelty that men might choose to inflict upon one another.

Look, if you want to blame religion for the majority of violence in the world, you are just deceiving yourselve. I'm now reviewing in my head the top reasons for war, murder, assault, and rape, and none of them are religion. For example, the top reason for war is the acquisition of land and resources.

 

[bhsmte]

Look, if you want to blame religion for the majority of violence in the world, you are just deceiving yourselve. I'm now reviewing in my head the top reasons for war, murder, assault, and rape, and none of them are religion. For example, the top reason for war is the acquisition of land and resources.

Yes and many of those attempts to acquire land and resources, are because the other folks have different religious beliefs.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes and many of those attempts to acquire land and resources, are because the other folks have different religious beliefs.

No, its simply because they were in a different group and therefore seen as less. It's part of human nature to do so.

In a famous psychological experiment, college students were divided into two groups randomly. The students KNEW the groups were randomly forms. Then they socialized for a while. Finally they filled out forms asking about their own group and the other group. They consistently identified their own group as superior: more intelligent, more sociable, funnier, etc. EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW THE GROUPS WERE RANDOM.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes, the concept of the supernatural is a religious one!

Most curanderas don't use the concept of the supernatural or a religion. True some do, employing Catholic saints and the like. But most simply use herbal remedies and appeals to magic, which isn't really a religious thing in and of itself. A Curandera is simply a shaman, a primitive doctor, which is secular.

 

[Meowzltov]

bump

 

[Meowzltov]

Yes, the concept of the supernatural is a religious one!

Most curanderas don't use the concept of the supernatural or a religion. True some do, employing Catholic saints and the like. But most simply use herbal remedies and appeals to magic, which isn't really a religious thing in and of itself, but more of a primitive and ignorant form of science. A Curandera is simply a shaman, a primitive doctor, which is secular.

 

[Chany]

Abstract notions can still be part of the real world. The supernatural and religious beliefs have similar origins. The degree of fear generated by a belief in 'witches' that results in a desire to kill them is entirely religiously motivated.

Nice goalpost move. I was responding to the claim that all supernatural claims are religious ones. They are not. I can be a neo-Platonist and not subscribe to anything we would call "religion". I can really care less about origins, all that matters is if they are correct or not. Heck, the line between natural and supernatural is ultimately blurred when we start to consider that things like magic. At what point does the natural diverge from the supernatural, by definition?

 

[SteveB28]

Look, if you want to blame religion for the majority of violence in the world, you are just deceiving yourselve. I'm now reviewing in my head the top reasons for war, murder, assault, and rape, and none of them are religion. For example, the top reason for war is the acquisition of land and resources.

Where did I indicate "majority" please?

The subject of this discussion was the claim that religion causes violence. Both you and I have confirmed that it does.

 

[Meowzltov]

The subject of this discussion was the claim that religion causes violence. Both you and I have confirmed that it does.

Of course it does. I've given the example of ISIS on more than one occasion. The reason I said majority is because THAT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.