The myth of religious violence

[SteveB28]

It may be quite unfair to lay the blame for the burning of witches at they foot of religion.

Would the concept of 'witches' exist without a religious influence of one stripe or another?

At the foot of superstition yes, and if a Christian looks back and says that the Church did far to little to stop it I would not argue. But it is superstition that fueled the fires.

Please indicate where 'superstition' ends and 'religion' begins. Was it superstition that caused the Bible author to command that "thou shall not suffer a witch to live", or is it a tenet of his religion? Is it superstitious or religious to believe that demons exist? Are Catholics involving themselves in superstition or religious observance when they claim that priests can perform exorcisms? That a cracker can transform into a man's flesh? That icons can weep blood?

 

[SteveB28]

The burning of witches was not so much from the fear of witchcraft as fear of women. It targeted single, independent or powerful women, or in some cases, just all the women in the town.

Would they have been able to justify their slaughter if the concept of a 'witch' (or 'sorceress' if you prefer) did not exist?

 

[Meowzltov]

Are you really suggesting that the Crusades would still have taken place without a religion directing them?

Absolutely. Europe needed to fight back against Islamic expansion. Absent religion, they would have found other justification.

 

[Meowzltov]

Would the concept of 'witches' exist without a religious influence of one stripe or another?

The concept of witches in a negative sense would likely not exist except for mysogyny.

 

[Meowzltov]

Would they have been able to justify their slaughter if the concept of a 'witch' (or 'sorceress' if you prefer) did not exist?

Men have been murdering women out of fear and hatred all down through history. They haven't needed to have the concept of witch to do it, no.

 

[quatona]

“Large-scale violence was not linked with religion but with organized theft.” As Armstrong says, simply having adversaries requires that every idea, including religion, be deployed as a part of one’s strategy of establishing the myth of the enemy’s monstrosity.
http://montrealgazette.com/news/wor...o-challenge-the-myth-that-religion-is-violent

If you want to picture religion as a mere tool and excuse for pursuing non-religious goals (which I am quite happy to agree with) you are blowing the notion out of the window that religion is an effective moral motivator.

 

[SteveB28]

Men have been murdering women out of fear and hatred all down through history. They haven't needed to have the concept of witch to do it, no.

That's a patently silly argument.

I am quite well aware that men have murdered women for a variety of motivations. However, we are not discussing those variants. We are discussing those specific cases wherein women (and some men) have been murdered solely because they were branded as being 'witches'!

The concept of a witch is a wholly religious one. People who do not have a religious belief, of one kind or another, do not believe witches exist!

So, you simply need to 'follow the bouncing ball' - if people don't believe that witches exist, they can hardly justify putting someone to death for being one, can they!?

The murdering of women, as witches, is a violence entirely due to religion.

 

[SteveB28]

The concept of witches in a negative sense would likely not exist except for mysogyny.

The concept of witches, in any sense, would not exist except for religion!

 

[Meowzltov]

If you want to picture religion as a mere tool and excuse for pursuing non-religious goals (which I am quite happy to agree with) you are blowing the notion out of the window that religion is an effective moral motivator.

That is an excellent point.

I'm sort of in between on this. On the one hand, I believe that the overwhelming number of wars for example are fought for land and resources. On the other hand, I don't think you can say ALL wars are fought for land and resourceses; for example, I am hard pressed to say that ISIS is fighting for any other reason than religious motivation.

 

[Meowzltov]

We are discussing those specific cases wherein women (and some men) have been murdered solely because they were branded as being 'witches'!

Then you are being circular. Talk about silly yourself.

 

[Oafman]

That is an excellent point.

I'm sort of in between on this. On the one hand, I believe that the overwhelming number of wars for example are fought for land and resources. On the other hand, I don't think you can say ALL wars are fought for land and resourceses; for example, I am hard pressed to say that ISIS is fighting for any other reason than religious motivation.

I agree with this, but there are also hybrids, where religion is used to convince people to fight in wars which are actually for land and resources.

 

[Meowzltov]

The concept of witches, in any sense, would not exist except for religion!

But it certainly can exist as a positive idea, i.e. La Curandera (a healer who uses folk remedies). Shaman exist in many religions.

 

[Meowzltov]

I agree with this, but there are also hybrids, where religion is used to convince people to fight in wars which are actually for land and resources.

Well the overwhelming number of wars for land and resources use other reasons as their front. "We're fighting for democracy", or "This is the war to end all wars", are reasons that come to mind.

 

[quatona]

That is an excellent point.

I'm sort of in between on this. On the one hand, I believe that the overwhelming number of wars for example are fought for land and resources. On the other hand, I don't think you can say ALL wars are fought for land and resourceses; for example, I am hard pressed to say that ISIS is fighting for any other reason than religious motivation.

In my response I was more like suggesting that we apply the same line of reasoning to actions that strike us as positive.

I´d also like to submit that the motivation of the leaders are not necessarily the same as those of the average Joes.

On yet another note, it seems to me that different motivations often feedback into another, amplify each other - a fact to which simple mechanistic cause-effect claims don´t do justice.

Anyway, I am not sure I have the psychic skills to determine somebody else´s most basic motivation for doing what they do, particularly not when their logic is founded in a culture that I am not familiar with.

 

[HitchSlap]

To me the message is that violence has decreased for over 300 years not. We can all find multiple events were someone of some religion or philosophy caused pain.
But in general most of us live life free from violence. Just this week I forgot to close my garage door when I drove off. The door was open for all to see for hours.
When I got home everything was still there. The news here reports over and over when a violent thing happen in a neighborhood that this type of thing just doesn't happen in our neighborhood. Violence is rare not common place these days.

Yep. Read "The Science of Fear," we're safer now than we've ever been in human history.

 

[Meowzltov]

I´d also like to submit that the motivation of the leaders are not necessarily the same as those of the average Joes.

Hmmmmm....

 

[SteveB28]

Then you are being circular. Talk about silly yourself.

Explain yourself please. Where is the circularity in my argument, or are you simply avoiding the point again?

 

[SteveB28]

But it certainly can exist as a positive idea, i.e. La Curandera (a healer who uses folk remedies). Shaman exist in many religions.

You don't seem to pay attention. I said "witches in any sense" is a religious concept. So, yes, there may be people that the religious have considered 'good witches'.

But you also have to take the bitter with the sweet. The more common concept of a 'witch', a woman associated with devil worship and evil acts, is indeed part of the RELIGIOUS idea that witches exist. How can you not see this? Those women were cold-bloodedly murdered because one religion or another was able to convince people that such things were real!

 

[ken777]

Witches WERE real! Every society had people who claimed to have, or were accused of having, powers not approved by the controlling authority.
The execution of "witches" was carried out mostly by secular authorities. The movement against the persecution of "witches" was led by religious people, as was the removal of capital punishment for petty criminals.

.

 

[durangodawood]

“Large-scale violence was not linked with religion but with organized theft.” As Armstrong says, simply having adversaries requires that every idea, including religion, be deployed as a part of one’s strategy of establishing the myth of the enemy’s monstrosity.
http://montrealgazette.com/news/wor...o-challenge-the-myth-that-religion-is-violent

Makes sense.

But even in this scenario, religion is marshaled to get decent people to behave atrociously.