• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The MYTH of Random Mutations

supersport

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2006
706
11
Texas
✟1,111.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well we’ve learned how gradualism is farce. Now let’s shift gears and learn how random mutations that supposedly add beneficial information to the genome is also a farce. (Yes, at the risk of being called a quote-miner I will continue to use quotes to back up my assertions so I will not be accused of not knowing what I'm talking about or spreading false, undocumented information.)

The fact is that natural selection + random mutations has a combined I.Q. of ZERO. NS is a largely random, unintelligent phenomenon, as are random mutations. Thus, the theory is wearing an intellectual dunce cap because it has no mechanism for creating beneficial information.

At first sight, however, the Theory of Evolution is an elegant theory. Not only that, but it’s got the benefit of some of the world’s greatest minds working on and devising ways to keep it afloat so that the vast majority of the population can continue to be snow-blinded. The problem is, however, that everything about this theory crumbles when it is realized that the biological mechanism of random mutations is a complete and utter fairytale.

According to Toe the population is supposedly the receiver of information. And this can only happen through random mutations. (This is why the theory MUST require gradualism)

If one ever investigates evolution he’ll find that mutations are the least talked-about aspect of the theory. Evolutionists LOVE talking about old bones and smelling, rotting carcasses, but when it comes to the mechanics of their theory, they often resort to little more than hand-waving….and this is because they cannot offer even one example of a random mutation that adds beneficial information to the genome. (when there should be a gazillion scientifically tested and proven examples) Instead, they rattle on for pages about mutations that are deleterious….or they’ll go on and on about how a mutation can lead to a leg sticking out of the head of a fly or how mutations can cause disease. But what does any of this have to do with evolution? The fact is, they have not even ONE example of a random mutation that adds beneficial information to the genome. And they certainly do not have an example of a mutation that can lead to cumulative selection – the bedrock of their whole theory.

Not even one (random) mutation has been observed that adds a little information to the genome. That surely shows that there are not the millions upon millions of potential mutations the theory demands. There may well not be any. The failure to observe even one mutation that adds information is more than just a failure to find support for the theory. It is evidence against the theory. Spetner

So right off the bat we’re expected to have blind faith in a miracle that’s never been seen, proven, tested – or even witnessed. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

(Due to the body’s proofreading mechanism)…The rarity of copying errors is a problem for Toe. The average rate of copying errors depends on the organism. In bacteria the mutation rate per nucleotide is between 0.1 and 10 per billion transcriptions…But in all other forms of life the rate is smaller. For organisms other than bacteria, the mutation rate is between 0.01 and 1 per billion (Grosse et al. 1984). Spetner

So how does a theory explain rapid biological changes in a population when it has a mutation of rate of possibly 0.01 per billion? And who’s to say that one small nucleotide will make any difference what-so-ever in an animal’s ability to breed? The fact is, the effect would be invisible and would not have any effect at all on the animal’s performance.

Also, when natural selection selects for or against an individual within the population, it has to accept or reject the genome as a whole, which includes almost 6 billion nucleotides. NS, in fact never sees, nor acts on individual nucleotides. Nucleotides, in fact, have very little effect on the organism, yet that’s how evolutionists believe that organisms build up over time…one nucleotide at a time. But this is just a wild (and wrong) assumption, as seen here:

We now know that human nucleotides exist in large linked clusters or blocks, ranging in size from 10,000 to a million. These linkage blocks are inherited as a single unit, and never break apart. This totally negates one of the most fundamental assumptions of the theorists – that each nucleotide can be viewed as an individually selectable unit. Dr. J.C. Sanford (geneticist) (Of course this annihilates the whole theory as well.)

And as I have stated before, evolutionists are afraid of testing animals. They’re afraid to test to see if individual animals quickly change phenotypes as a result of an environmental change. (I challenge anyone to prove me wrong with a link.) And the reason for this is they do not accept the notion that the environment can cause a mutation. Thus, they simply chicken out when it comes to any testing that would falsify their theory. However, what they DO do, is resort to confusing people by playing around with bacteria and other assorted organisms in the lab. They figure the majority of the population won’t bother to investigate the legitimacy of the claims that bacterial resistance proves evolution. They assume people will just take geneticists’ and chemists’ word for it.

The fact is, however, that bacterial resistance is just as much a non-random phenomenon as an animal changing its color due to an environmental shift. There is simply no other explanation as to why science is so obsessed on laboratory experiments, yet completely and totally neglects similar experiments on real animals. It’s so glaringly obvious, and in my opinion, it’s an embarrassment for the scientific establishment. This alone speaks volumes because it proves they are hiding something.

But in regards to bacteria:

If we look into these experiments in detail (bacteria restance, et al.) we see that no new information got into the genome. Indeed, it turns out that each of those mutations actually lost information. They made the gene less specific. Therefore, none of them can play the role of small steps that are supposed to lead to macroevolution. Spetner

Were it not for its defenses (proofreading mechanisms) mutations would in no time destroy all genetic texts. The effect (of mutations) is in all circumstances is to demolish. To rely on a rare, fortunate mistake is a poor resource, quite apart from the fact that transgressions of the kind needed by Darwinian evolution have never been documented. Sermonti


Yet I am still not convinced there is a single, crystal-clear example of a known mutation which unambiguously created information. There are certainly examples of mutations which have been described as “beneficial”, but most of these beneficial mutations have not created information, but rather have destroyed it. Sanford

“but but but but but….what about the nylon bug????” – The fact is, this may or may not be adding information (it is still up in the air at this point)….but the problem for evolutionists is, like bacterial resistance, it is still a NON-RANDOM mutation…and the only reason the mutation occurred is because the organism was physically put in the presence of an outside influence; ie…the environment induced the mutation. It’s no different -- in theory -- than putting a fish in a different environment and watching it change colors…

http://www.mpks.org/faq/ans128.shtml

The resistant bacterium has not evolved – in fact it has digressed genetically and is defective. Such a mutant strain is rapidly replaced by “superior” (i.e. natural) bacteria as soon as the antibiotic is removed. Another example would be the hairless Chihuahua dog. In extreme heat, reduction of size and loss of hair may be useful adaptation, but this involves degeneration. Sanford

And this is more important than it may seem. The fact is, it’s not just bacteria – but all of life is in a state of constant degeneration via mutations.

…Our species is dying. The theory of Evolution is wrong. Information decays. Genomes decay. Life is not going up up up – it is going down down down. Selection does not create information, and at best can only slow its progress. Sanford

Even one of evolutionists’ favorite examples for “deliberate” mutations, radiation, has a negative, degenerating effect on the crops it effected. Thus, once again, how could this possibly serve a vital role in evolution???? – which leads me to wonder why would they even bother talking about it in all their literature??? Deception? Are they THAT starved for emamples? :

A huge number of small, sterile, sick, deformed, aberrant plants were produced. However, from all this effort, almost no meaningful crop improvement resulted. The effort was for the most part an enormous failure, and was almost entirely abandoned. Why? It was because even with all those billions of mutations, there were no significant new beneficial mutations arising. Sanford

This theory is dead. It amazes me that so many people have fallen for it.



Dr. J.C Sanford -- Genetic Entropy and the Mystery of the Genome

Dr. Lee Spetner -- Not By Chance

Dr. Giuseppe Sermonti -- Why is a Fly Not a Horse
 
Aug 18, 2006
11
1
Library of Alexandria
✟22,636.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Does this OP qualify as a random mutation and joining of the last 500 times the individual points were refuted and concepts corrected and explained? Seems I could just post links to recent threads that already covered all these.
 
Upvote 0

Phred

Junior Mint
Aug 12, 2003
5,373
998
✟22,717.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
supersport said:
Well we’ve learned how gradualism is farce.

No... we haven't.

Now let’s shift gears
And tell the truth?

and learn how random mutations that supposedly add beneficial information to the genome is also a farce.
Oh dear me no...

The fact is that natural selection + random mutations has a combined I.Q. of ZERO.
That's not a fact, it's a quip, designed to pretend you have knowledge while in fact imparting nothing but third-grade humor.

NS is a largely random, unintelligent phenomenon, as are random mutations. Thus, the theory is wearing an intellectual dunce cap because it has no mechanism for creating beneficial information.
Really... and all this time I thought NS was simply a rule, a guide, a way that determines what genes are passed down not by choice or intelligence but by simply noting that those who can survive do. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the "information" (a term you have yet to define or understand) that codes for living things.

Evolutionists LOVE talking about old bones and smelling, rotting carcasses, but when it comes to the mechanics of their theory, they often resort to little more than hand-waving….and this is because they cannot offer even one example of a random mutation that adds beneficial information to the genome.

  • increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
  • increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
  • novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
  • novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
The fact is, they have not even ONE example of a random mutation that adds beneficial information to the genome.
  • Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000).
  • RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002)
  • Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998)
This theory is dead. It amazes me that so many people have fallen for it.
You've yet to do anything but regurgitate long refuted creationist nonsense. Why not just give us proof that goddidit instead of trying to tear down science thru ignorance and lies? Would that be because it's all you've got? Create doubt amongst the uninformed so you can wedge (choice of word specific) your ideas into our society?

.
 
  • Like
Reactions: theFijian
Upvote 0

supersport

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2006
706
11
Texas
✟1,111.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Phred said:

No... we haven't.


And tell the truth?


Oh dear me no...


That's not a fact, it's a quip, designed to pretend you have knowledge while in fact imparting nothing but third-grade humor.


Really... and all this time I thought NS was simply a rule, a guide, a way that determines what genes are passed down not by choice or intelligence but by simply noting that those who can survive do. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the "information" (a term you have yet to define or understand) that codes for living things.



  • increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
  • increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
  • novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
  • novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)
  • Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000).
  • RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002)
  • Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998)
You've yet to do anything but regurgitate long refuted creationist nonsense. Why not just give us proof that goddidit instead of trying to tear down science thru ignorance and lies? Would that be because it's all you've got? Create doubt amongst the uninformed so you can wedge (choice of word specific) your ideas into our society?

.​

I don't know about your first example...but just from your descriptions I can tell your bottom two examples of mutations adding information are not random. Random would mean RANDOM -- not as a result of an enviornmental change.
 
Upvote 0

Edx

Senior Veteran
Apr 3, 2005
4,626
118
✟5,474.00
Faith
Atheist
supersport said:
I don't know about your first example...but just from your descriptions I can tell your bottom two examples of mutations adding information are not random. Random would mean RANDOM -- not as a result of an enviornmental change.

Define random. Define information.

If you cannot do so in an objective scientfic way you cant pretend to be saying anything scientific.
 
Upvote 0

Chalnoth

Senior Contributor
Aug 14, 2006
11,361
384
Italy
✟36,153.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Your entire argument breaks down with two simple points:
1. The rate of mutation that you gave is very misleading. First, there are a number of cell divisions that are required before a sperm or egg cell is generated. Second, the human genome has some 3 billion base pairs. This paper estimates that the rate of mutation is near 175 mutations per generation in humans: http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/156/1/297

That's a fairly rapid rate if you ask me.

2. While many mutations are harmful, natural selection acts to prevent those mutations that are harmful from being spread throughout a population. Traits therefore only degrade when they are no longer pressured by natural selection. The bacterial evidence that is mentioned in your quotes is evidence for this, not against.

This, of course, means that the human genome is naturally degrading today: at some point we are going to need to take charge of human evolution in order to prevent a genetic disaster.
 
Upvote 0

I_Love_Cheese

Veteran
Jun 1, 2006
1,384
53
✟16,874.00
Faith
Agnostic
Edx said:
Define random. Define information.

If you cannot do so in an objective scientfic way you cant pretend to be saying anything scientific.
Beat me to it. This should be funny as Supersport has shown no basic knowledge of anything, I can't wait for a definition of information that cannot increase.

Another one for the PRATT list.
 
Upvote 0

shadowmage36

Iä! Iä! Cthulhu ftaghn!
Jul 31, 2006
302
30
38
Delaware
✟15,608.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Supersport, you must be doing really well, because....
rabbit_pancake.jpg
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
supersport said:
Thus, the theory is wearing an intellectual dunce cap because it has no mechanism for creating beneficial information.

The problem is, however, that everything about this theory crumbles when it is realized that the biological mechanism of random mutations is a complete and utter fairytale.

It basicly all comes down to one thing. Either God created us and all the information was there in the beginning. Or everything created itself though what they are currently calling rare random mutations. So they have a theory on how everything could have created itself. From there they can deny that there is a God, that He created us for a reason and that He will hold us accountable for what we do in the limited amount of time that we are given.

Even if evolution were true, you would still need to go one step further. It is commonly agreed that there are universal laws that "evolution" is subject to. There could be no evolution if there were no natural laws. Yet they have no theory on where these laws could have come from. The only thing they seem to agree on is that the laws have remained unchanged from the beginning. Science is universalism, there is no theory on how the laws could have changed over time. In that regard the universe is steady state.
 
Upvote 0

Edx

Senior Veteran
Apr 3, 2005
4,626
118
✟5,474.00
Faith
Atheist
JohnR7 said:
From there they can deny that there is a God, that He created us for a reason and that He will hold us accountable for what we do in the limited amount of time that we are given

Yes John. Thats why all those Christian evolutionists are really atheists!

And of course you already told me before that every other person that has religious beliefs that isnt based on the Bible are also atheists.

Yet they have no theory on where these laws could have come from.
So to evidence biological evolution we must also prove abiogensis, the big bang and come up with a unifying theory of everything and disprove God. I dont understand why you dont love Kent Hovind.
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Phred said:


  • Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000).
  • RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002)
  • Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998).
You must be grasping at straws here. None of this stuff has been wakied and when I run a google search nothing comes up but jibberish.
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Edx said:
Yes John. Thats why all those Christian evolutionists are really atheists!
They tell me that there is no such thing as a Christian Evolutionists. You can be a Christian AND a Evolutionist but one belief does not confirm the other.

The bottom line is that evolution in reality is little more then a footnote as far as science is concerned. They have taken the theory and they are trying to use it way out of context. Every day they seem to get themselves deeper and deeper into falsehoods.

For example, it is becoming common to call a gene now a mutation. There is no evidence that gene actually is a mutation. But they decide to call it that in a vain attempt to try and verify their lame duck theory.

The genetic information was there all along, but they try to use their magic to demonstrate that it just showed up out of nowhere.
 
Upvote 0

MewtwoX

Veteran
Dec 11, 2005
1,402
73
38
Ontario, Canada
✟17,246.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Liberals
No, we haven't learned that Gradualism is "dead" (or at least, the version of "gradualism" you appear to be referring to), but rather that Punctuated Equillibria plays as an additional "mechanism" in Evolutionary Development.

The fact is that natural selection + random mutations has a combined I.Q. of ZERO. NS is a largely random, unintelligent phenomenon, as are random mutations. Thus, the theory is wearing an intellectual dunce cap because it has no mechanism for creating beneficial information.

Again wrong, as this process has been shown time and again to lead to the development on beneficial mutations. Your previous attempts at disproof were shown false.

According to Toe the population is supposedly the receiver of information. And this can only happen through random mutations. (This is why the theory MUST require gradualism)

Does "transduction by retrovirus" mean anything to you?
The ToE does not go out of its way to specify all mutations that occur will be pure and perfect randomness; this is you trying to make a strawman. There's more to mutation than just copying errors, however the bulk of mutations are copying errors.

Your use of the term "gradualism" at the end of this point suggests that you don't have a firm understanding of what "gradualism" means.

If one ever investigates evolution he’ll find that mutations are the least talked-about aspect of the theory. Evolutionists LOVE talking about old bones and smelling, rotting carcasses, but when it comes to the mechanics of their theory, they often resort to little more than hand-waving….and this is because they cannot offer even one example of a random mutation that adds beneficial information to the genome. (when there should be a gazillion scientifically tested and proven examples) Instead, they rattle on for pages about mutations that are deleterious….or they’ll go on and on about how a mutation can lead to a leg sticking out of the head of a fly or how mutations can cause disease. But what does any of this have to do with evolution? The fact is, they have not even ONE example of a random mutation that adds beneficial information to the genome. And they certainly do not have an example of a mutation that can lead to cumulative selection – the bedrock of their whole theory.

Completely ridiculous.

Of COURSE.... no Evolutionary Biologist spends time discussing the nature of mutations in Evolution and its mechanics...

*cough*

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/infotheory.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16908036&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16913914&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16893475&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

*cough*

As for beneficial mutations...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16903693&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16882283&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

Just two things to think about, in addition to the usual examples for beneficial mutations, mmkay?

So right off the bat we’re expected to have blind faith in a miracle that’s never been seen, proven, tested – or even witnessed. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

It has been shown to you... time and again.

So how does a theory explain rapid biological changes in a population when it has a mutation of rate of possibly 0.01 per billion? And who’s to say that one small nucleotide will make any difference what-so-ever in an animal’s ability to breed? The fact is, the effect would be invisible and would not have any effect at all on the animal’s performance.

Also, when natural selection selects for or against an individual within the population, it has to accept or reject the genome as a whole, which includes almost 6 billion nucleotides. NS, in fact never sees, nor acts on individual nucleotides. Nucleotides, in fact, have very little effect on the organism, yet that’s how evolutionists believe that organisms build up over time…one nucleotide at a time. But this is just a wild (and wrong) assumption, as seen here:

Very poor understanding of genetics. Single nucleotides can have larger affects, depending on what they change, whether they are alterations, indel or perhaps even whether they are naturally caused (tautomers) or not.

Think about this: A change in one amino acid of the Haemoglobin product leads to the development of Sickle Cell anemia.

one amino acid.

Also, think about this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB100.html

Its a short summary, but it introduces one idea you haven't talked about yet: the affects of Sexual reproduction on mutation rates.

We now know that human nucleotides exist in large linked clusters or blocks, ranging in size from 10,000 to a million. These linkage blocks are inherited as a single unit, and never break apart. This totally negates one of the most fundamental assumptions of the theorists – that each nucleotide can be viewed as an individually selectable unit. Dr. J.C. Sanford (geneticist) (Of course this annihilates the whole theory as well.)

Actually, I believe he is incorrect. There are mutations that lead to double stranded separation.

Translocations of entire chromosomes have occured and on a much lower scale, some indel mutations function by nucleotides being broken off by radiation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_translocation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposable_element

Even by a logical deduction, if one mucleotide is changed, leading to a different amino acid, which has a chain reaction of effects (IE. the Sickle Cell Anemia example I showed you before) then a "single nucleotide" can be selected for.

And as I have stated before, evolutionists are afraid of testing animals. They’re afraid to test to see if individual animals quickly change phenotypes as a result of an environmental change. (I challenge anyone to prove me wrong with a link.) And the reason for this is they do not accept the notion that the environment can cause a mutation. Thus, they simply chicken out when it comes to any testing that would falsify their theory. However, what they DO do, is resort to confusing people by playing around with bacteria and other assorted organisms in the lab. They figure the majority of the population won’t bother to investigate the legitimacy of the claims that bacterial resistance proves evolution. They assume people will just take geneticists’ and chemists’ word for it.

O RLY?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16893475&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

It is known that phenotypes can change for non genetic reasons. It is also known that there are variations in phenotype for reasons outside of genetic and environmental reasons. We attribute these differences to developmental noise.

(An example: http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/12782415 )

The fact is, however, that bacterial resistance is just as much a non-random phenomenon as an animal changing its color due to an environmental shift. There is simply no other explanation as to why science is so obsessed on laboratory experiments, yet completely and totally neglects similar experiments on real animals. It’s so glaringly obvious, and in my opinion, it’s an embarrassment for the scientific establishment. This alone speaks volumes because it proves they are hiding something.

No, the connection between the change and the genetic difference is established in experiments. In papers that do not account for this possibility, the only possible outcome is a shredding by the Peer Review committee.

If we look into these experiments in detail (bacteria restance, et al.) we see that no new information got into the genome. Indeed, it turns out that each of those mutations actually lost information. They made the gene less specific. Therefore, none of them can play the role of small steps that are supposed to lead to macroevolution. Spetner

Naked Assertion.


Were it not for its defenses (proofreading mechanisms) mutations would in no time destroy all genetic texts. The effect (of mutations) is in all circumstances is to demolish. To rely on a rare, fortunate mistake is a poor resource, quite apart from the fact that transgressions of the kind needed by Darwinian evolution have never been documented. Sermonti

Fallacy of Composition.

Yet I am still not convinced there is a single, crystal-clear example of a known mutation which unambiguously created information. There are certainly examples of mutations which have been described as “beneficial”, but most of these beneficial mutations have not created information, but rather have destroyed it. Sanford

Obviously hasn't been paying much attention to the scientific papers. Odd for a Geneticist, aint it?

“but but but but but….what about the nylon bug????” – The fact is, this may or may not be adding information (it is still up in the air at this point)….but the problem for evolutionists is, like bacterial resistance, it is still a NON-RANDOM mutation…and the only reason the mutation occurred is because the organism was physically put in the presence of an outside influence; ie…the environment induced the mutation. It’s no different than putting a fish in a different environment and watching it change colors…

Worth considering, for the number of claims that no "beneficial information" was made:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB101_2.html

As for the nylon bug... its pretty much set that the mutation was neomorphic. The only ones who dispute this are the usual brand of Creationists, who are dismanted in the following articles quite nicely:

http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm

Since the rest is essentially the same things dealt with above, I'll ignore it... except for this:

This theory is dead. It amazes me that so many people have fallen for it.

There's only so many times one can say this before it reflects badly on the individual.

Supersport, your arguments are starting to appear to be more vengeful then academic... Isn't this unsettling to you?
 
Upvote 0

metherion

Veteran
Aug 14, 2006
4,185
368
39
✟28,623.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
JohnR7 said:
You must be grasping at straws here. None of this stuff has been wakied and when I run a google search nothing comes up but jibberish.
[/QUOTE=JohnR7]
Perhaps... because without the proper background in the correct sciences it is gibberish? I'm sure if I or shadowmage36 started spouting advanced thermodynamics at you you'd find it unintelligible. Or Russian (which shadowmage36 has done to me on occasion). et cetera.

JohnR7 said:
They tell me that there is no such thing as a Christian Evolutionists.
And who is they? Voices in your head? The ASPCA? Martians? If you're going to reference someone, might as well say who.

And while they don't necessarily reinforce each other, someone who believes in both is a Christian Evolutionist. Or an Evolutionist Christian. Maybe the 'they' told you evolutionst chrisitans exist but christian evolutionists don't.

JohnR7 said:
The bottom line is that evolution in reality is little more then a footnote as far as science is concerned. They have taken the theory and they are trying to use it way out of context. Every day they seem to get themselves deeper and deeper into falsehoods.
Where is science using evolution out of context? Is science now trying to use evolution to explain sunspots or something?

EXAMPLESPLEASE!

Metherion
 
Upvote 0

I_Love_Cheese

Veteran
Jun 1, 2006
1,384
53
✟16,874.00
Faith
Agnostic
JohnR7 said:
They tell me that there is no such thing as a Christian Evolutionists. You can be a Christian AND a Evolutionist but one belief does not confirm the other.
We start with a non sequitur.

JohnR7 said:
The bottom line is that evolution in reality is little more then a footnote as far as science is concerned. They have taken the theory and they are trying to use it way out of context. Every day they seem to get themselves deeper and deeper into falsehoods.
And then we move into a totally fallacious assertion without any evidence. By the way, the only people trying to use evolution out of context are creationists who are getting into deeper and deeper falsehoods.

JohnR7 said:
For example, it is becoming common to call a gene now a mutation. There is no evidence that gene actually is a mutation. But they decide to call it that in a vain attempt to try and verify their lame duck theory.
Now we are off into plain old loony land, No there is no evidence a gene is a mutation and nobody ever said it was. All the time you have been at this and you don't even know the basics. Gene Mutation

JohnR7 said:
The genetic information was there all along, but they try to use their magic to demonstrate that it just showed up out of nowhere.
Now you are going to try and give us the front loading nonsense without evidence, what is next the second law argument?
 
Upvote 0

shadowmage36

Iä! Iä! Cthulhu ftaghn!
Jul 31, 2006
302
30
38
Delaware
✟15,608.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
JohnR7 said:
They tell me that there is no such thing as a Christian Evolutionists. You can be a Christian AND a Evolutionist but one belief does not confirm the other.

Wrong. I am, in fact, a Christian Evolutionist. Is it so hard to believe that God set the Universe in motion, with a specific set of laws, and then, being all-knowing, and seeing that life would evolve as He wished, allowed it to evolve as it would, by those same laws? It doesn't take away from God's majesty.

If anything, it adds to it more than anything else we've seen, short of Christ's ressurection.


JohnR7 said:
The bottom line is that evolution in reality is little more then a footnote as far as science is concerned. They have taken the theory and they are trying to use it way out of context. Every day they seem to get themselves deeper and deeper into falsehoods.

It's been shown to you countless times that this is false. Repeating the same stale arguments and PRATTs will get you nowhere. It's getting dull and repetitive.

JohnR7 said:
For example, it is becoming common to call a gene now a mutation. There is no evidence that gene actually is a mutation. But they decide to call it that in a vain attempt to try and verify their lame duck theory.

Genes are genes. There is no other name for them. Mutations are changes that occur to genes. This a basic part of genetics. This has also been explained to you countless times. Read the respsonses to your posts. Take some advice from the first line of my signature.

JohnR7 said:
The genetic information was there all along, but they try to use their magic to demonstrate that it just showed up out of nowhere.

It did not show up out of nowhere. It slowly built up over time, as life evolved from single molecules, to single cells, and so on, up to the great diversity of life we have today.

Not only are your arguments and statements insulting to my beliefs, and the beliefs of many others here on the board, but they're also PRATTs.

GAH!!!:help:
 
Upvote 0

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I_Love_Cheese said:
the only people trying to use evolution out of context are creationists
There is creation science and there is evolution science and in the end everyone is going to have to choose to go one way or the other.

1 Cor. 11:19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
 
Upvote 0