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The Music Thread
- Thread starter Byfaithalone1
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- Sep 24, 2005
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My concern is that you are applying what you see as practical because of your own experiences to everyone else. Not having the type of past lifestyle that you and k4c describe and warn against falling back into through music, I view certain types of music differently, and they don't affect me in the same way that they seem to affect you and others. I don't enjoy some types of music (metal, for example), and I choose to avoid music that has lyrics that I find offensive, but that may be a matter of personal taste and sensitivity for me. Others may not find the same things offensive or unbearable to listen to as I do. Still others may be more sensitive than I am to some types of music because of past associations, and perhaps they do need to be more careful in their music choices because of that. Music does sometimes have an emotional impact on me and bring to mind memories--some good and some bad--of past experiences but not to the extent that I am tempted to do anything immoral because of it. I just can't relate to the extreme effects that you and k4c describe, so I don't think that music affects everyone in the same way.
Joe67 said:
I agree with you on that.
Joe67 said:
I don't see any indication in the Bible that music led to David's sins with Bathsheba and Uriah or with numbering Israel, and I'm not sure how the king of Tyre fits into your scenario. All the Bible says about him in association with David is that he supplied materials for David's palace. The Bible describes Solomon as having a longer-term association with Hiram of Tyre than David had. Perhaps you can explain further because I don't see how that relates to the music issue.
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Sophia,
There are dangers in mid-life that none of us can believe until we wake up one day and find that we are entangled in the weeds around our head (like Jonah).
In all of our good, evil is hidden in it. This is true of David's charismatic energy in his music. The king of Tyre was a great admirer of David. The king of Tyre was very wealthy through timber and shipping. David was taken off his guard through the attention of this wealthy leader who lived in a world of pleasure and beauty.
Thus David's desire for even more demonstrative musical energy led him away from frugality into excesses of spirit and body as he had more time to relax in his new comfortable home. Pleasure became a ruling spirit in him rather than service even unto his death. Now his heart was prepared as a lamb for the slaughter for his eyes to look upon something pleasant, and the same spirit that moved Samson, moved David to say, "Get her for me." Thus began the downward spiral of the house of David.
Joe
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Joe, help us out here. You've made some pretty big claims. Hopefully you can see that. If what you are saying is true, then we need to be able to see the basis. Can you walk us through the evidence that leads you to this conclusion about the King of Tyre, David and the reason for David's doward spiral?
It seems as though you are saying that the music offerings of worship provided by David and others (as described below) were not only unacceptable to god, but they also led to David's demise. This is a lot for us to swallow, Joe.
- 2 Samuel 6:5
Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals. - 1 Chronicles 13:8
David and all Israel were celebrating before God with all their might, even with songs and with lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals and with trumpets. - 1 Chronicles 15:16
Then David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their relatives the singers, with instruments of music, harps, lyres, loud-sounding cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. - 1 Chronicles 15:28
Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the horn, with trumpets, with loud-sounding cymbals, with harps and lyres. - 1 Chronicles 16:5
Asaph the chief, and second to him Zechariah, then Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, Obed-edom and Jeiel, with musical instruments, harps, lyres; also Asaph played loud-sounding cymbals, - 1 Chronicles 16:42
And with them were Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those who should sound aloud, and with instruments for the songs of God, and the sons of Jeduthun for the gate. - 2 Chronicles 5:12
and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and kinsmen, clothed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps and lyres, standing east of the altar, and with them one hundred and twenty priests blowing trumpets - 2 Chronicles 5:13
in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one voice to praise and to glorify the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice accompanied by trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and when they praised the LORD saying, " He indeed is good for His lovingkindness is everlasting," then the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud, - Ezra 3:10
Now when the builders had laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests stood in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD according to the directions of King David of Israel. - Psalm 150:5
Praise Him with loud cymbals;Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
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BFA,
First, let us remember that through David the Lord revealed that he does not impute our iniquity (the evil that is present when we would do good) unto us.
It is agonizing to us when the spirit reveals that our most sincere emotions toward the Lord, through his beauty and glory, is attended with iniquitous desires.
This leads us to weep like John in Revelation 5.
Think how difficult it was for the Jews to accept Amos' testimony concerning the sacrifices. And then a few 100 years later the word of the Lord came to them through Jeremiah that he did not command them concerning the burnt offerings or sacrifices.
David's worship of the Lord in music was planned in connection with the sacrificial system which the Lord said later through Amos that the sacrifices and solemn assemblies were unpleasant to him.
David's simple tent wherein he worshiped the Lord was good. The grand plan for the great temple and its sacrificial system was the iniquity. Too much of a good thing. Keep it simple is life.
Joe
First, let us remember that through David the Lord revealed that he does not impute our iniquity (the evil that is present when we would do good) unto us.
It is agonizing to us when the spirit reveals that our most sincere emotions toward the Lord, through his beauty and glory, is attended with iniquitous desires.
This leads us to weep like John in Revelation 5.
Think how difficult it was for the Jews to accept Amos' testimony concerning the sacrifices. And then a few 100 years later the word of the Lord came to them through Jeremiah that he did not command them concerning the burnt offerings or sacrifices.
David's worship of the Lord in music was planned in connection with the sacrificial system which the Lord said later through Amos that the sacrifices and solemn assemblies were unpleasant to him.
David's simple tent wherein he worshiped the Lord was good. The grand plan for the great temple and its sacrificial system was the iniquity. Too much of a good thing. Keep it simple is life.
Joe
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Joe,
I'm afraid you have given us nothing to hang a hat on. You've claimed that music was at the center of David's downfall and yet you've provided no evidence to support this extraordinary claim. What we have instead is a Bible full of examples that demonstrate the positive effects of music in multiple forms, including forms that are loud, full of instruments and heavy with percussion.
BFA
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BFA,
What is extraordinary about the downfall of ministers of music? It is from the beginning.
Joe
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It's extraordinay because you seem to be attributing David's downfall to music. This isn't exactly the majority view and I'm trying to see the Biblical basis. In fact, I can't find any basis for concluding that music contributes to evil or sin.
BFA
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old-fashioned music. Now does that date me or what.
yes.
to each his own. And it is between each person and God as to whether the choice of music enriches or undermines their relationship.
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Ezek 28:11-18
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. KJV
2 Cor 11:14
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.KJV
Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. KJV
This process is going on at this present time. The powerful energy to worship and seek after the Lord is an evidence that the hearing of the word of the Lord is finished. Satan has been given to commercialize the worship of Jesus. All of the nations are now participating in the commercialization and music is the common medium. All forms of music are being used to sell the Lord Jesus again. It must needs be.
Joe
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. KJV
2 Cor 11:14
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.KJV
Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. KJV
This process is going on at this present time. The powerful energy to worship and seek after the Lord is an evidence that the hearing of the word of the Lord is finished. Satan has been given to commercialize the worship of Jesus. All of the nations are now participating in the commercialization and music is the common medium. All forms of music are being used to sell the Lord Jesus again. It must needs be.
Joe
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Joe, thanks for sharing your opinion. Opinions on this subject vary. For example, others have opined that the recent emphasis on worship has drawn people into a more meaningful understanding of what worship is and how to integrate it into various aspects of one's life. I tend to conclude that the recent worship emphasis includes both positive and negative implications and that this chapter will eventually be viewed as merely that -- one chapter in the history of believers.
As far as I can tell, the Bible does not talk about commercializing worship through music. Therefore, I suspect that we have come full circle to my central questions:
Are there musical styles that God prefers? I believe your answer to this question is yes, though I'm not sure you've shared with us which styles are preferable.
Are there musical styles that God cannot or does not accept? I believe your answer to this question is yes, though I'm not sure you've shared with us which styles He cannot or does not accept.
Are there musical styles that God cannot or does not accept? I believe your answer to this question is yes, though I'm not sure you've shared with us which styles He cannot or does not accept.
If there are styles that are unacceptable to God, how do we determine which styles they are?
It is fascinating to me that believers in general are prone to discuss the merits of a certain behavior so long as they are able to discuss it in general terms. When you ask them to get specific, things get rather interesting. I think that we've seen this in other threads as well.
BFA
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Matt 15:11-12
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? KJV
Matt 15:18-20
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. KJV
Matt 12:36-37
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. KJV
Rom 2:15-16
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. KJV
Joe
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? KJV
Matt 15:18-20
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. KJV
Matt 12:36-37
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. KJV
Rom 2:15-16
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. KJV
Joe
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Which things coming out of a man defile him? Everything? Does all music defile?
Will singing a traditional choir anthem defile a man? What about a rock anthem? Are we assuming that Matthew 15 is making a distinction between musical styles? If so, how does this work?
Notice that this passage places an emphasis on words, not on musical styles. From previous posts, it appears that many of us are in agreement that words may represent a problem. However, we've yet to see a Biblical basis for distinguishing between musical styles.
BFA
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Agreed, and I don't think that basis actually exists. Indeed there's no reason why it should.
Personally, I listen to many styles of music, though I really don't like rap or heavy metal. They are far too noisy for me, and some of the underlying ethos is not good (misogynistic, homophobic, condoning violence etc..). Normally, I default to country / classical / middle of road pop or rock... typical middle aged man choices, I guess.
I might not like the styles, but if a teenager wishes to listen to rap / metal, well that's down to them. Telling a teen not to listen to a particular genre of music will almost certainly have the opposite effect!
Image is everything in the pop world. Often, there is a very deliberate intention to shock or to appeal to a teenager's rebellious instincts. So I take some of the "quotes" from producers and musicians that we saw earlier in this thread (#28) with a big pinch of salt.
In the music world, the thing I find really immoral is the overall business ethic, the way that producers and record labels exploit naive and hopeful talent. That's worse than the lyrics, for me.
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- Sep 24, 2005
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VictorC
Jesus - that's my final answer
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Thanks! We can place my confusion into the "duh" category.Contemporary Christian music.
Phil Keaggy, Amy Grant before she married, and Robin Mark top my preferences.
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Cool! You've definitely dated yourself. That's fine by me. I'm a pretty big fan of '80s music (CCM or otherwise)!
BFA
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