The More I Read, the Less I Believe

[ruining]

I've been a Christian for about 15 years, admittedly without reading much of the Bible. I started a kind of peripheral study of philosophy because it's something I've always been interested in, but never taken the time to learn. After a few short months of the most basic study, I started to look at my religion in a completely different way, which leads me to a few questions.

I decided to read the Bible in order to solidify my faith, but on the contrary, the 4 gospels and their contradictions have me really bothered right now.

First question would be, if the gospels are remarkably different, especially when it comes to the resurrection of Christ, how are we to know that it even happened, and how are we to accept a document with so many variations as the inspired word of God? They were written at different times by not the people for whom they were named with whole paragraphs that were copied verbatim while still having enough variation so that we don't know who was at the resurrection, did the women go and tell or didn't they, was the stone in the way or not and how many disciples actually saw Jesus after his resurrection. We don't even know if it was supposed to be before the last supper or after.

Second question which is a bit more philosophical: skepticism appears to mostly come from your environment. If God created me and put me into a specific environment in which I would develop a certain level of skepticism, how could I then be punished for non-belief without historical proof, something that the Bible can't actually offer because you can't prove a miracle from 2000 years ago, by definition.

Is there anyone here that can offer readings from scholars that approach the topic from a logical perspective that comes to a conclusion that would support a reason for faith in Christ?

I have a meeting with my pastor next week, but I've done about 30 hours of research over the last 5 days and I feel compelled to seek as many options as possible.

Thanks

 

[singpeace]

Textually speaking only 1/1000th of the Bible has any textual variation in the copies. That means that the Bible as a whole is around 98.5% textually pure. The New Testament is about 99.5% textually pure. Furthermore, there is enough redundancy in the copies that have been unearthed via archaeology, that we can reconstruct the Bible to almost 100% accuracy. It is a remarkably well preserved series of different books.

Finally, proof can be found this way:

Fulfilled Bible Prophecy Pertaining to Christ

Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David Jer 23:5 Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah Gen 49:10 Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse Isa 11:1 Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children Jer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18

Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
11. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
12. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
13. Called Immanuel Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
14. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
15. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
16. Judge Isa 33:22 Jn 5:22-23
17. King Ps 2:6 Jn 18:33-37
18. Anointed by the Spirit Isa 11:2 Mt 3:16-17
19. His zeal for God Ps 69:9 Jn 2:15-17

Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
20. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
21. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
22. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
23. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
24. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey Zech 9:9 Mt 21:1-7
26. Stone of stumbling to Jews Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22 1 Pet 2:6-8
27. Light to Gentiles Isa 49:6 Acts 13:46-48

Concerning His Crucifixion Prophesied Fulfilled
28. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
31. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
32. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
33. Accused by false witnesses Ps 35:11+20-21 Mt 26:59-61
34. Silent before accusers Isa 53:7 Mt 27:12-14
35. Wounded and bruised Isa 53:4-6 1 Pet 2:21-25
36. Beaten and spit upon Isa 50:6 Mt 26:67-68
37. Mocked Ps 22:6-8 Mt 27:27-31
38. Fell under the cross Ps 109:24-25 Jn 19:17; Lk23:26
39. Hands and feet pierced Ps 22:16 Jn 20:24-28
40. Crucified with thieves Isa 53:12 Mt 27:38
41. Prayed for enemies Isa 53:12 Lk 23:34
42. Rejected by His own people Isa 53:3 Jn 19:14-15
43. Hated without cause Ps 69:4 Jn 15:25
44. Friends stood aloof Ps 38:11 Lk22:54;23:49
45. People wag their heads Ps 22:7;109:25 Mt 27:39
46. People stared at Him Ps 22:17 Lk 23:35
47. Cloths divided/gambled for Ps 22:18 Jn 19:23-24
48. Became very thirsty Ps 22:15 Jn 19:28
49. Gall and vinegar offered Him Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34
50. His forsaken cry Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46
51. Committed Himself to God Ps 31:5 Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken Ps 34:20 Jn 19:32-36
53. Heart broken Ps 69:20;22:14 Jn 19:34
54. His side pierced Zech 12:10 Jn 19:34+37
55. Darkness over the land Amos 8:9 Lk 23:44-45
56. Buried in rich man's tomb Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60

Concerning His Resurrection Prophesied Fulfilled
57. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
58. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
59. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
60. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13


SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY FOUND IN THE BIBLE

Scientific Facts in The Bible


SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY FOUND IN THE BIBLE

1. The Shape of the Earth

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in," (Isaiah 40:22, NIV).

This may or may not be construed to support the spherical shape of the earth. The horizon is a circle and a circle is flat.

Christopher Columbus wrote in his diary:
“It was the Lord who put it into my mind – I could feel his hand upon me – the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies … All who heard of my project rejected it with laughter, ridiculing me … There is no question that the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit, because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures… For the execution of the journey to the Indies, I did not make use of intelligence, mathematics, or maps. It is simply the fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied.”


Also take a moment to really consider the next verse:

"He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness." (Job 26:10)

Job 26:10 clearly refers to the line of demarcation between day and night. No other interpretation is possible. Such a view of the curved horizon at sunrise or sunset can only be seen from extremely high altitudes reached only by military jets and spacecraft.


2. The Earth is Suspended in Nothing

"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing," (Job. 26:7, NIV).

This is particularly interesting, considering that the cosmology of other cultures at that time did not have the earth suspended in nothing, but rather upon pillars, or people, or animals.


3. Earth’s Rotation on its Axis is Responsible for the Sun’s Rising and Setting.

“Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place? It is changed (turned) like clay under the seal” (Job 38:12, 14).

Written 4,000 years ago, the picture here is of a vessel of clay being turned or rotated upon the potter’s wheel – an accurate analogy of the earth’s rotation.


4. The Water Cycle

"For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof: Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly. Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?"(Job 36:27-29).

Science later documented the direction of wind currents and wind paths. This was unknown in previous centuries, but Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 1:6, “The wind blows to the south and goes round to the north; round and round goes the wind, and on its circuits with wind returns.”


5. Streams in the Ocean

Ecclesiastes 1:7: “All streams run to the sea, but the sea is not full; to the place where the streams flow, there they flow again.”

Matthew Maury (1806-1873), who is known as “the Pathfinder of the Seas,” was the founder of modern oceanography and hydrography. Maury firmly believed in and was inspired by Psalm 8:8, “whatever passes along the paths of the sea.” Maury believed that if the Bible wrote about “paths in the seas” then there must truly be paths in the sea. He dedicated his life to find and document these paths God had mentioned. Maury spent part of his career with the U.S. Navy charting the winds and currents of the Atlantic which were not known before his documentation.


6. Space and Time

"In the beginning (time) God created (power) the Heaven (space) and the Earth (matter)... And the Spirit of God moved (motion) upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:1,3 … written some 3450 years ago).


7. Universe Expanding

"It is He that . . . stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in." (Isaiah 40:22)


8. Empty Space

"He stretches out the north over empty space; he hangs the earth on nothing." (Job 26:7)


9. Air has Weight

"To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure." (Job 28:25)


10. Galaxy Radio Waves

"When the morning stars sang together..." (Job 38:7)


11. Atoms

"By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. "(Hebrews 11:3)

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17).


12. Gravitational Properties

“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?” (Job 38:31).


1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics

First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics:
The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter in the universe remains constant. If the First Law is correct, which every scientific measurement ever made has confirmed, then the universe could not have created itself, it must have been created in the past, no further creating must be going on, and no loss of creation is occurring. The Bible is the only religious book that correctly portrays the First Law by 1) its description in Genesis of a Creator who is no longer creating, and 2) a Creator who is"upholding all things by the word of his power (Hebrews 1:3)".

Genesis 2:1 says (after creation):

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

The Hebrew word used here is the past definite tense for the verb "finished," indicating an action completed in the past, never again to occur. The creation was "finished" -- once and for all. That is what the First Law of Thermodynamics says. It states that neither matter nor energy can be either created or destroyed. There is no "creation" ongoing today. It is "finished" exactly as the Bible states.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all systems degenerate from order to disorder, was regarded by Albert Einstein to be the premier Law in science. Again the Bible is the only religious book to accurately describe this Law:

"For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, the earth will grow old like a garment..." (Isaiah 51:6),

and also a New Testament rendering:

"You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; (Hebrews 1:10-11)

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse

 

[hedrick]

First question would be, if the gospels are remarkably different, especially when it comes to the resurrection of Christ, how are we to know that it even happened, and how are we to accept a document with so many variations as the inspired word of God?

I think Matthew, Mark and Luke are similar enough that they represent different forms of the same basic tradition. They don't differ more than witnesses of the same event do now, except maybe on the birth stories.

John is a separate question. Although the core narrative is consistent with the Synoptics, there's a lot of theological elaboration.

They were written at different times by not the people for whom they were named with whole paragraphs that were copied verbatim while still having enough variation so that we don't know who was at the resurrection, did the women go and tell or didn't they, was the stone in the way or not and how many disciples actually saw Jesus after his resurrection. We don't even know if it was supposed to be before the last supper or after.

One possibility is copying. That's not the only possible view. I tend more to the idea that there were traditions about Jesus' life that developed differently in different cities. But there were lots of people who saw Jesus. It's not surprising that there were be many different accounts, which were combined in different ways by different writers or different local traditions.

I'm not sure what you mean by before the last supper or after. All the Gospels agree that the crucifixion and resurrection were after the last supper.

Second question which is a bit more philosophical: skepticism appears to mostly come from your environment. If God created me and put me into a specific environment in which I would develop a certain level of skepticism, how could I then be punished for non-belief without historical proof, something that the Bible can't actually offer because you can't prove a miracle from 2000 years ago, by definition.

What did Jesus say would be the basis on which people would be judged? Not believing specific historical statements, as far as I recall. At least not in the Synoptics. Jesus, like the prophets, said we'd be judged based on how we treat each other, plus some basic attitudes such as humility and repentance. Most branches of Christianity think people will be judged on the basis of the opportunity they had to find out the truth. That's explicit for Catholics and the more liberal half or so of Protestants.

Is there anyone here that can offer readings from scholars that approach the topic from a logical perspective that comes to a conclusion that would support a reason for faith in Christ?

Unfortunately scholars tend to write about scholarship. The main serious scholar I know of who writes the kind of thing you're looking for is N T Wright. He's a well-known NT scholar, but also writes on popular subjects. His book "Simply Christian" is intended to be a presentation of Christianity for non-Christians. Note that it doesn't have any proofs of God's existence. I don't think that's possible or even something you'd expect. From what could you deduce it?

In my opinion religion is rather like science: it's a whole area of knowledge that is justified by the results it produces: a way of knowledge and doing things that would otherwise not be possible. Unfortunately for someone with your orientation, most Christianity doesn't produce results you're likely to find attractive. However I think the Christian faith as taught and practiced by people like Wright is pretty good. I cite him because you asked specifically for a scholar. There are other writers that deal with questions about basics of Christianity, using the results of current scholarship. But they aren't themselves scholars.

There are some Christian philosophers, if you're interested. Here's one compendium: Virtual Library of Christian Philosophy - Author Names. I'd suggest particularly Alvin Plantinga, or Richard Swinburne. See also the following general article of Philosophy and Christianity in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Philosophy and Christian Theology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). That site has a number of articles on theological topics from a philosophical point of view.

 

[ldonjohn]

Ruining,

First I will ask that you read a thread I just posted in the Baptist forum titled "My Struggle with Believing." It explains how God brought my out of a miserable time of doubts & fears about salvation.

Also, I completely understand being confused when reading the bible. I know that it appears to have contradiction but I have learned over many years of bible study that the bible actually explains itself.

I suggest that if you want to understand about Jesus & the Gospel message that you focus your reading only in the Gospel of John and don't worry about contradictions with the other Gospels. Ask God to show you the truth & seek that truth in earnest. I did that myself and God didn't waste any time showing me the truth I was seeking.

Please, read my post. I think it will help you.

 

[singpeace]

Ruining,

First I will ask that you read a thread I just posted in the Baptist forum titled "My Struggle with Believing." It explains how God brought my out of a miserable time of doubts & fears about salvation.

Also, I completely understand being confused when reading the bible. I know that it appears to have contradiction but I have learned over many years of bible study that the bible actually explains itself.

I suggest that if you want to understand about Jesus & the Gospel message that you focus your reading only in the Gospel of John and don't worry about contradictions with the other Gospels. Ask God to show you the truth & seek that truth in earnest. I did that myself and God didn't waste any time showing me the truth I was seeking.

Please, read my post. I think it will help you.

Excellent post DonJohn. Great response. ​

 

[Sophrosyne]

I decided to read the Bible in order to solidify my faith, but on the contrary, the 4 gospels and their contradictions have me really bothered right now.

this here is your problem right away, you are looking for contradictions to begin with.

First question would be, if the gospels are remarkably different, especially when it comes to the resurrection of Christ, how are we to know that it even happened, and how are we to accept a document with so many variations as the inspired word of God? They were written at different times by not the people for whom they were named with whole paragraphs that were copied verbatim while still having enough variation so that we don't know who was at the resurrection, did the women go and tell or didn't they, was the stone in the way or not and how many disciples actually saw Jesus after his resurrection. We don't even know if it was supposed to be before the last supper or after.

If you were to ask 4 witnesses about what happened in a situation would you expect the same exact story from each of them or would you expect them to differ? If the stories were exactly the same people would want to reject them as copying each other the fact the differences exist actually leads us to think more than one person had knowledge of it all and from differing viewpoints we can ascertain differing perspectives of it all.

Second question which is a bit more philosophical: skepticism appears to mostly come from your environment. If God created me and put me into a specific environment in which I would develop a certain level of skepticism, how could I then be punished for non-belief without historical proof, something that the Bible can't actually offer because you can't prove a miracle from 2000 years ago, by definition.

Is God responsible for your skepticism or are you responsible? If it was 100% obvious then there would be no faith involved in believing in God and everyone would believe even those not wanting to accept God would have to admit that they are wrong. God allows doubt because without doubt there cannot be faith and without faith it is impossible to please God.

Is there anyone here that can offer readings from scholars that approach the topic from a logical perspective that comes to a conclusion that would support a reason for faith in Christ?

I have a meeting with my pastor next week, but I've done about 30 hours of research over the last 5 days and I feel compelled to seek as many options as possible.

Thanks

Ask yourself the following questions:
What is the meaning of life if Jesus doesn't exist in the form and fashion equated in the bible?
If God is who he says he is how many times does he have to come down to earth and die for our imperfections (sins unto him)?
If you consider all the other religions of the world do any of them have any way that is imaginable for flawed beings to become perfect that is absolutely fool proof other than salvation through Jesus?
In science the simplest solution usually is the correct one, and God himself chose the simplest way for us to have eternal life possible... faith in Jesus plus NOTHING.
Read the bible and think of another way God could have saved us from our sins BETTER than how he did it with Jesus. Ask yourself how much love is there and does God's love go to the limit or not for us.

 

[ArteestX]

First question would be, if the gospels are remarkably different, especially when it comes to the resurrection of Christ, how are we to know that it even happened, and how are we to accept a document with so many variations as the inspired word of God?

Here you're talking about historical research, and the same question can be applied to anything from long ago. Do we *know* Shakespeare actually wrote his plays? How can we accept the documents as authentic (and there are those who question the authenticity of Shakespeare)? Do we *know* what happened during the Dark Ages? Do we *know* what happened during {pick your historical anecdote here}?

I don't think differences in historical documents is evidence one way or another regarding whether something happened or not. I used to consider the fact that there were differences among the gospels to be evidence that the Bible wasn't true. But now, I don't think those differences prove or disprove anything one way or another.

Second question... If God created me and put me into a specific environment in which I would develop a certain level of skepticism, how could I then be punished for non-belief without historical proof, ....

Being a skeptic myself, I cannot give you a religious answer, so I will leave this for others to address. Good luck to you in your spiritual journey!

 

[Spaceman 3]

Hi Singpeace...

Prophecies concerning the Messiah essentially prove nothing.

They were there in the Old Testament, written by the Hebrews centuries before the arrival of Christ.

It's just as reasonable to assume that the writer(s) of the New Testament made these prophecies 'fit' to back up their claim that Christ was the Messiah. Paul was a Pharisee & would've known the scriptures inside out.

Why is it that the New Testament writers claim that the Jewish religious leaders didn't recognise Jesus as Messiah? They would also have known about these prophecies. They didn't seem to connect those prophecies with Christ.

 

[aiki]

Prophecies concerning the Messiah essentially prove nothing.

They were there in the Old Testament, written by the Hebrews centuries before the arrival of Christ.

That is precisely why it is remarkable that they were fulfilled in such detail by Christ.

It's just as reasonable to assume that the writer(s) of the New Testament made these prophecies 'fit' to back up their claim that Christ was the Messiah. Paul was a Pharisee & would've known the scriptures inside out.

Paul didn't write any of the Gospels. If you're suggesting that the disciples were just lying their faces off about Jesus, well, you've got to explain why they would do that at such terrible expense to themselves. Not only did the Gospel they preached and wrote down contradict everything they had been taught and thought they knew about the Messiah, but their persistence in telling their story of Christ's divinity resulted in severe persecution and finally death. What possible reasonable motive could the disciples have had for doing this? For my money, the only motive that makes sense is that what they preached they believed to be absolutely true.

Why is it that the New Testament writers claim that the Jewish religious leaders didn't recognise Jesus as Messiah?

The Gospels indicate that the Jewish leaders were caught out by Christ in their religious hypocrisy. He showed them to be "blind leaders of the blind." Consequently, their teaching and religious authority were seriously threatened by Jesus. In light of this, it seems to me quite to be expected that they would reject Christ's claim to be the Messiah.

They would also have known about these prophecies. They didn't seem to connect those prophecies with Christ.

See above.

Selah.

 

[Spaceman 3]

Hi Aiki...

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Just for the record I seek the truth, & therefore ask difficult & blatant questions of the scriptures in order to blow away the dust of doubt. None of my views are set in stone, yours & others' answers are always taken into account within my thoughts.

"That is precisely why it is remarkable that they were fulfilled in such detail by Christ."

Not if they were written in by a learned Judaist Pharisee. The NT scriptures have been disputed & edited over the 2,000 odd year time period of their existence... haven't they?

"Paul didn't write any of the Gospels. If you're suggesting that the disciples were just lying their faces off about Jesus, well, you've got to explain why they would do that at such terrible expense to themselves. Not only did the Gospel they preached and wrote down contradict everything they had been taught and thought they knew about the Messiah, but their persistence in telling their story of Christ's divinity resulted in severe persecution and finally death. What possible reasonable motive could the disciples have had for doing this? For my money, the only motive that makes sense is that what they preached they believed to be absolutely true."

I'm not suggesting that the writers were blatantly lying, but according to scholars there is reason to doubt their historical accuracy, which opens them up to ambiguity at best. Paul wouldn't necessarily have to have written them if he'd dictated the oral tradition to scribes. The alleged authors would've also been very elderly, or even deceased when the gospels were written.

I've often pondered on the question of persecution & martyrdom in relation to your statement. It is indeed an interesting point.

One has to remember however that Nero was in power during the first persecution & martyrdom. Nero was of course an obsessive & brutal emperor. He viewed the Palestinian Christians as a threat to the 'Roman polytheistic way' & used them as scapegoats for the fire of Rome. The Jewish rebellion also took place during Nero's reign, adding fuel to the fire of Semitic persecution. Furthermore, he expelled Jews from Rome, believing them to be instigators and carriers of the "new & mischievous superstition" called Christianity.

It is very possible that persecution would've happened anyway, a common Roman enemy, if you will.

I do take your point however, even in the modern day Christians are persecuted & it is an intrigue as to what leads them to death & persecution. The same could be said of Islam though, & indeed many martyrs have died for many different causes throughout history.

"The Gospels indicate that the Jewish leaders were caught out by Christ in their religious hypocrisy. He showed them to be "blind leaders of the blind." Consequently, their teaching and religious authority were seriously threatened by Jesus. In light of this, it seems to me quite to be expected that they would reject Christ's claim to be the Messiah."

Again, a fair, but common answer. Jesus did catch them out, I agree, but only because he brought a new approach to the table.

Whether they were practising hypocrites or not, they did have a fair point. Doesn't the Torah, for example, teach "an eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth"? Jesus was claiming the authority to effectively change this law of God. This is just one example, there are many more, I'm sure. This in itself would lead the teachers of the Holy law to question the authenticity of such a teacher. He would, & should, according to their scripture, have been put to death as a false prophet.

If a man came along now, in our present time, disputing the claims of Christian doctrine, claiming authority unto himself to alter the very words of scripture, & change the direction of how one should view & approach God, I think he would be viewed as a false teacher or an Antichrist.

 

[dhh712]

Is there anyone here that can offer readings from scholars that approach the topic from a logical perspective that comes to a conclusion that would support a reason for faith in Christ?

I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling with your faith. I don't have any answers for you and not much advice except only to pray to God that He will give you the gift of faith; it can not come by reason. Enduring faith is not attained by reasoning to logical fact the existence of God. It is a gift; only He can give you the ability to believe upon Him as well as to believe that the Scriptures are indeed the true word of God. They are difficult to understand, but in His infinite wisdom which we can never comprehend according to our limited minds, He has willed it to be that way.

Here is some literature regarding reasoning the existence of God:

http://www.bellevuechristian.org/fa...PDFs/Apol_Bahnsen_Stein_Debate_Transcript.pdf

If the link does not work, just type in: "The great debate: does God exist?" into a search engine and it should pull it up.

I'm not sure if he does an irrefutable argument for the Christian God; I rather find that in reading it, it may win some over to deism instead. I'm not sure how his basic point that knowledge must have a basis in something, and that something is God (or god to the deist) can be refuted. Yet I'm definitely not excessively skilled in logic and I don't have the gift of Christian apologetics. I'm more of the opinion that faith doesn't seem based on reason--objective reason, that is (there definitely should be some reasoning behind it; "blind" faith is never a good thing). According to the truth of the Bible, faith is a gift so thankfully, the ability to reason objectively for it is not required.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,
I would like to answer your question in a different way. I have had many modern day miracles. God has proved the bible over and over again my performing signs for me. You can read about them at http://www.futureandahope.net
Below is one of my favourite signs.

One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice that I believed was God say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was known as the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardless of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife wielding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

 

[ldonjohn]

Ruining,
I can tell you from my own experience that you will not find faith in God from any form of reasoning of man. If you would like to read about how I became a real believer read my post in the Baptist Forum "My Struggle with "Believing."
The only way to find the kind of faith that results in one becoming a real genuine believer in the Gospel for forgiveness of sin and salvation is for the person to seek the truth from the Word of God, the Bible, as though nothing else in his/her life matters more than finding that truth. As I said above, I know this because that is exactly my experience and God showed me the truth and He gave me the faith I needed to become a true believer. The faith God gave me was focused on the Gospel message. That message said to me that I was a sinner who needed my sins forgiven, that there was absolutely nothing I could do that God would accept as a “payment in full” so to speak, for the sin debt that I owed Him. Because of my helpless hopeless condition I was condemned to spend eternity in hell but God loved me so much that He Himself stepped out of heaven, came to earth as a man, Jesus, and allowed Himself to be crucified on a cruel cross where He shed His blood & died as the atonement for my sin; He paid my sin debt for me “in full.” Then he arose from the dead and went back to heaven. Now, I don’t pretend to understand everything about the Bible & God, & Jesus but I do understand enough to realize my need and God’s provision for my need. That provision is offered to all who will accept it for themselves as I did. The key to becoming a true believer is found in the truth of God’s Word and that truth becomes real to us only through the work of the Holy Spirit as we hear, read, study God’s word earnestly seeking the Truth.
Below are some of the bible verses that the Holy Spirit used to open my blind spiritual eyes to the truth.
Jeremiah 29:13 says “and you shall seek me, and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.”
John 6:63 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
John 16:8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”
Luke 13:3 “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 5:39-40 Jesus said to them, “search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” And you will not come to me that you might have life.“ John 6:37 Jesus said “all the Father gives me will come to me and anyone who comes to me I will not turn away.”
John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to him, “this is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he hath sent
Titus 1:2 “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” “Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

John 3:14-15 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believes in him shall be saved.” He was comparing His death on the cross to the serpent being lifted up on a pole in Numbers 21:7-10: “Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. (God sent serpents to bite and kill them because they complained that God sent Moses to bring them out of Egypt into the wilderness to die from starvation) And Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looked upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. The person who was bitten by the serpent knew he was going to die unless he obeyed God and looked at that serpent on the pole to be healed or to be saved from death. That “look” was a look of faith in desperation knowing that the only hope for being healed was by looking at the serpent. They were believing that God would heal them by doing what He told them to do. Jesus was saying that He was going to be lifted up, nailed to the cross which was then lifted up, in the same way, a lost sinners’ “look in faith” to the cross is “believing, saving faith.”
　

 

[aiki]

Not if they were written in by a learned Judaist Pharisee. The NT scriptures have been disputed & edited over the 2,000 odd year time period of their existence... haven't they?

What evidence do you have that a "learned Judaist Pharisee" "wrote in" Christ's fulfillment of OT prophecies?

By early in the fourth century, the canon of the NT had been formally acknowledged and closed. There has been debate over the Apocryphal books, but apart from this debate, the books constituting the NT have remained without serious challenge until today.

I am not aware of any "editing" of the NT. There have been copyist errors, but the enormous body of ancient manuscripts of the NT has enabled modern translators to pick out the errors and correct them. And none of the errors affect the fundamental doctrinal or theological framework of Christianity at all.

I'm not suggesting that the writers were blatantly lying, but according to scholars there is reason to doubt their historical accuracy, which opens them up to ambiguity at best.

To which scholars are you referring? Liberal Bible scholars seem to want to erode any confidence a person might have in the Bible as the Word of God. Conservative Bible scholars have answered quite satisfactorily all the challenges they have mounted against the trustworthiness of Scripture. I don't see, then, that the content of the NT is "ambiguous" - unless, of course, you find the contentions of the liberal scholars persuasive, which I don't.

Paul wouldn't necessarily have to have written them if he'd dictated the oral tradition to scribes.

Paul did not write any of the Gospels, which record Christ's fulfillment of OT prophecy. In fact, Paul did have scribes do the writing of some of his letters, but I don't know what this has to do with whether or not Christ fulfilled OT prophecy.

The alleged authors would've also been very elderly, or even deceased when the gospels were written.

Oh? What source are you working from in making this assertion? And what difference does the age of the authors of the Gospels make to whether or not Christ did actually fulfill OT prophecy?

I've often pondered on the question of persecution & martyrdom in relation to your statement. It is indeed an interesting point.

More than just "interesting," if you ask me. It's proof-positive of the sincerity with which they wrote.

I do take your point however, even in the modern day Christians are persecuted & it is an intrigue as to what leads them to death & persecution. The same could be said of Islam though, & indeed many martyrs have died for many different causes throughout history.

Sure. And when they do, it is usually evidence of the depth of belief the martyrs have in what they are dying for. If the apostles were willing to die for their faith in Christ as the Messiah, it was because they were convinced he was truly the Messiah.

Whether they were practising hypocrites or not, they did have a fair point. Doesn't the Torah, for example, teach "an eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth"? Jesus was claiming the authority to effectively change this law of God.

Yes, and to secure his right to do so he went head-to-head with the religious leaders of the day and repeatedly debated them into defeated silence. He also performed miracles to establish his claims to divine authority, not least of which was his resurrection from the dead.

This is just one example, there are many more, I'm sure. This in itself would lead the teachers of the Holy law to question the authenticity of such a teacher. He would, & should, according to their scripture, have been put to death as a false prophet.

How does this serve to erode the fact that Christ did fulfill OT prophecy?

If a man came along now, in our present time, disputing the claims of Christian doctrine, claiming authority unto himself to alter the very words of scripture, & change the direction of how one should view & approach God, I think he would be viewed as a false teacher or an Antichrist.

Certainly. So, he would have to do as Christ did and prove he had the divine authority and right to amend Christian doctrine and practice.

It is also interesting to note that what Christ taught did not actually contravene OT law but instead fulfilled it. Christ repeatedly approved the OT Scriptures, quoted from them, and pressed the Pharisees upon those points where they had contorted or abandoned the spirit of OT law to serve their own selfish ends. In fact, Jesus declared,

Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Selah.

 

[Spaceman 3]

Interesting Aiki, thanks.

I have no evidence of Paul (the learned Judaist Pharisee) 'writing in' the prophecy fulfilments, it's something I've heard mentioned before & wondered what the general consensus was. It is a possibility I s'pose, but not particularly one that I intend to dwell on, as I myself don't see that it holds up.

I've briefly looked into the issues raised about Christ's fulfilment of OT prophecy & will endeavour to do so. My mind is not one of rejection, but one that seeks rational truth. I think it would therefore be unwise to discuss them here, but there are certain interesting contradictions in the NT gospels regarding some of those prophecies.

I investigate claims made on either side carefully & reasonably, because, as I'm sure you're aware, some hostility exists, which in my opinion is counter productive. My mind is open however to receive truth & measured evidence & to process that truth rationally.

Forgive my initial attitude, which was rather abrupt. I think sometimes however, that one receives the best form of reply in defensive response.

In relation to what we've briefly discussed regarding Christ's claims, you may find this interesting. It's quite long, but certainly worth the time & effort.

The Transfer of the Levitical Priesthood of Aaron to the Priesthood of Melchizedek

 

[Sedoy]

God cannot be limited by or described in a book. Simply because God is so much greater then can be described by any human language. True and real God will not do anything that is not biblical but His greatness is well beyond our ability to comprehend.

Seek God on the personal level. Just reach out to God, cry out to God and if it is done with pure and humble hearts he will respond. In which way I do not know but it will be in the way that you need.

 

[Arcwood]

You asked, "how are you capable of being punished for you lack of faith."

it is so,
because you, when you are brought into the kingdom of heaven. and simply you. What knowledge or pride do you have to bring with you?

 

[dlamberth]

Is there anyone here that can offer readings from scholars that approach the topic from a logical perspective that comes to a conclusion that would support a reason for faith in Christ?

Years ago I went through a similar experience. The conclusion that I eventually came to is that it wasn't Christ that I had issues with but the teaching of the Church. The more I read into the beginnings of the Church and as well as the other early Christian trajectories the less faith I had in what I was being taught today. So I turned to Christ to see what He brought. In a mystical sort of way I put on the skin of Christ and in my very limited way I opened my heart to experience what He experienced as He reached out to the Father in Prayer and Worship as well as to Humanity and to our condition. Its a learning experience of what the "Heart of Christ" is about. Sitting in Christ I found total and compete Love and Compassion and Forgiveness as well as a Heart Centered Service to those in need. All of which is merged with and powered by the Light of God. It's very simple really. At the same time I came to believe that Christianity has made it complicated. In my own spiritual journey I reached a point to where I de-converted from Christianity yet at the same time I'm more of a Lover of Jesus Christ than ever before.

.

 

[trientje]

Ruinings, "I decided to read the Bible in order to solidify my faith, but on the contrary, the 4 gospels and their contradictions have me really bothered right now." First of all, I would like for you to specify what contradictions you have found. Have you considered that what you perceive as contradictions could be a lack of understanding?