The morality and foolishness of the Christian God

[docpotter]

Oh, not this continuing-is-futile business...

That is such an cop out.

I'm sorry that all three theories have the same weight, by your "gotcha"-logic.

Lol, why should I continue ? You have seemingly made your mind up right ? You even know all of the " logic" I am trying to use right ?

Cop out? No , not even a little bit. Wasted time, yes. I would be thrilled to have a back and forth discussion on the validity of Christ and the validity of the bible, but that seems like a waste of time on this thread to me, sorry

 

[Non sequitur]

Lol, why should I continue ? You have seemingly made your mind up right ? You even know all of the " logic" I am trying to use right ?

Cop out? No , not even a little bit. Wasted time, yes. I would be thrilled to have a back and forth discussion on the validity of Christ and the validity of the bible, but that seems like a waste of time on this thread to me, sorry

You asked me a question, to establish the veracity of your claims, which I happily responded to. I didn't want to avoid anything.

I was just hoping you'd respond to mine; a simple courtesy.

No worries.

 

[InterestingUsername]

No Docpotter, we haven't made up our mind. That is what essentially brought us to the position of standing without religion. I am offering you a chance to present your beliefs in the way people such as myself (and non sequitur) can only understand fact. Through evidence. If you can prove that not just God exists, but Christianity is the real teachings of this creator through undeniable evidence, I would happily begin moving myself towards your position on the existence of God.

But until you can do just that, we are not moving.

 

[docpotter]

No Docpotter, we haven't made up our mind. That is what essentially brought us to the position of standing without religion. I am offering you a chance to present your beliefs in the way people such as myself (and non sequitur) can only understand fact. Through evidence. If you can prove that not just God exists, but Christianity is the real teachings of this creator through undeniable evidence, I would happily begin moving myself towards your position on the existence of God.

But until you can do just that, we are not moving.

The evidence would still rely on faith. Any religion , and belief in any God , or gods relies on some level of faith. Can I prove to you there is a God ? No , I cannot. Can anyone disprove there is a God ? No , they cannot.

The points I was trying to make earlier is simply that if Jesus was who He claimed He was, then that would make every other religion false. Agree or disagree ? and why

 

[Non sequitur]

The points I was trying to make earlier is simply that if Jesus was who He claimed He was, then that would make every other religion false. Agree or disagree ? and why

Well, I don't know everything he said or every religion, but sure.

However, one has to accept your premise as true, first, so I'm not sure what that gets you.

 

[docpotter]

Well, I don't know everything he said or every religion, but sure.

However, one has to accept your premise as true, first, so I'm not sure what that gets you.

He said He is the Christ , the Messiah foretold by the prophets 100s and 100s of years earlier. He says " I am the way , the truth , the life, NO MAN can come to the Father except through Me " .

He says there is only one God.

So , when investigating any other major world religion, you will find they either worship many gods, or deny Christ was who He claimed to be. They all cannot be right. They could all be wrong yes. But they cannot all be right.

 

[Non sequitur]

He said He is the Christ , the Messiah foretold by the prophets 100s and 100s of years earlier. He says " I am the way , the truth , the life, NO MAN can come to the Father except through Me " .

He says there is only one God.

So , when investigating any other major world religion, you will find they either worship many gods, or deny Christ was who He claimed to be. They all cannot be right. They could all be wrong yes. But they cannot all be right.

Well, assuming all that, then yes, that would be true.

 

[InterestingUsername]

The faith part of religion is what I have beef with. 'Faith' is defined as "Strong belief in something with no proof or evidence". We get nowhere in ANY other aspect of life with this way of looking at the universe or indeed outwith it. It seems to me that 'faith' in the Theistic context is just the fancy way of saying "Believe what I preach not because there is proof, but because I offer what you seek" to the gullible, and "Believe what I preach not because there is proof, but because I offer you a simple answer to complex questions" to the lazy and ignorant.

Indeed if Jesus was who he says he was, God does exist and homosexuality is wrong and there was a global flood etc etc, but there is one word in that statement you need to eradicate to make me a believer. "If".

 

[docpotter]

Yeah ,I hear you , I do . Faith can be hard. But let me ask you a serious question, ok .

Have you ever loved anyone ? ever ? Your mom, dad, a friend , a relative ? I mean really loved someone? Cared about them deeply ?

Can you prove it to me ?

You could tell me about it maybe, but I could keep saying I don't believe you over and over. I could say you have some ulterior motive, etc.

Most Christians are not trying to get you to " believe their preaching " , but some might be. I can tell you I have nothing to gain by spending time here typing to you about Jesus , and the bible. All I know is what changes took place in my life when I put God first, and started reading the bible. But of course that isn't going to provable beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Faith is always essential when love is involved , don't you agree ?

 

[Ronald]

If God is all mighty and powerful, then why hasn't he made himself more known to us, so we know for sure he is the real God?

"because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:19, 20
Order in the universe points to an organizer. Matter does not organize itself. Design is clearly seen in nature pointing to a designer. Information in the genetic code did not come by chance mutations. It's like saying an explosion happened in a print shop that produced the Encyclopedia Brittanica. These are examples of Him making Himself known indirectly.
Now the more direct way was that He would become a man and live amoung us > JESUS

If I was forced to choose a religion ...

No one can make you believe in anything. God doesn't force anyone. he draws you to Himself and you willingly choose. Imagine a veil over your eyes that was blinding you to see where you are going. He lifts that veil so that you can see. And believe me, you do see the world differently from then on.

I meet God and tell him "Sorry, but there was no way for me to logically prove to myself that being a Christian was better than any other religion." What would he do?

Again, you are already without excuse. Logic doesn't find God. You can't intellectualize faith. It is a gift. Ask and you will receive. But faith comes by the word of God. Just read one book in the Bible, the book of John. Remove all doubts, be like a child, pray and ask, "If you really exist God, show me." Then read it. The words are sharper then a sword and will pierce your heart but you have to have an open door and give Him the benefit of the doubt. Pride will keep your door closed.

"

But I have been with moral character all my life!

Good!
A moral code or compass is evidence of God as well. Where did that come from? Your conscience says you ought to go this way and you try to rationalize or analyze it logically and choose the wrong way! The voice inside you telling you to do something isn't always you? Is that you arguing with yourself. You may say, your parents of society taught you morals. But this conflict within, is this just you struggling with yourself? And then, afterwards, the guilt. Is this a self imposed moral that we violate? Why do you feel guilty for anything? God wired us that way.
Even though you are not aware of it, he has led you to this forum. He orchestrates people and events in your life to lead you to a certain moment at which time He reveals Himself. Get ready, I'll pray for you.

I may not have lived by all your rules, but I treated others the way I wished to be treated

Living by rules is not Christianity. That was the Old Testament Law. We live by faith through grace -- because Christ fulfilled the Law for us. We could not. You treated others as you wanted to be treated? Where do you think that came from? Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto yourselves"

Assuming the devil is writing these books, why hasn't God countered them?

He has. The gospel is the good news. Any book leading you away from Christ is a scheme of Satan. Christianity is not void of reason or science.
There is evidence for our faith, it is not blind. In a court of law, the evidence surrounding the resurrection of Christ is overwhelming in favor and iron-clad for the truth as written.

But when the devil is using logic that we are familiar with (science and reasoning) to tempt us away, God is relying solely on good faith to keep us at bay. I find it incredibly naive of God to think that we would not be swayed to the devil's side, when he is using the only thing we base our own knowledge on, facts, to disprove him.

The is a spiritual battle going on in the unseen world to take your soul and you have no idea what God is doing to save you from that. He sends angels to protect you, He sends you messages to go this way and do that. Do you think all your thoughts come from your own logic? Did you ever have an evil thought and ask, where the heck did that come from, then catching yourself and dismissing it? Temptations come but your moral code counters them and what happens? As you said, you do the right thing --most of the time. You really think what's going on in your mind is ALL YOU?

...God hasn't been able to prove himself to us by the only way we know how to prove facts.

Give me a logical explanation including any facts you have of how a child develops in the womb. Start with the sperm, the egg, mitosis, how the cells duplicate themselves, deciphering genetic codes, create amino acids and proteins, complex systems and organs all in a precision way thats contingiently dependent on all other systems and organs to develop and function simultaneously, and then nine months later, a baby who looks like his/her parents appears. Keep in mind that the mother doesn't order what's going on inside her and the cells themselves don't have little brains to order this process, so then how does this life form develop? Can you logically tell me that nothing outside of this fetus designed it, ordered it and formed it in the womb?

Read the book of John, then I'll talk to you again.

 

[InterestingUsername]

Quoting scripture proves nothing and therefore is of no use to me.

Why can't you (or God) see, this is me asking! Through the only way I know how! I cannot rely on giving up logic to begin trying to believe (which I have did in the past, getting me here) when the only way society and I have progressed is through evidence, facts and logic.

You assume there is perfect morality, which you cannot provide real evidence for. We, throughout history, generations upon generations, have believed we had the right morals. We thought black people were meant to be slaves, we thought woman had no say anywhere other than at home, we still think homosexuality is a sin, and on the first two, we began eradicating this moral belief (and I believe we will eventually do the same with the third). Objective morality is not perfect morality. It only provides the basis of staying alive. Not because it is simply the right thing to do.

Jesus is not the origin of that quote. It was around before him.

What evidence do you consider overwhelming? The fact there were eye witnesses? Anyone can be paid to say something. Anyone can have hallucinations. Anyone can be lying to try and sway things in their favour.
An open tomb and no body suggests a stolen body as the best assumption to me. Saying the dead body came back to life and and walked out is probably the worst assumption. If there was an empty magician's coffin found today and people told me the magician came back to life, I would say it was probably a fantastic trick. Not real.

I think it is absolutely disgusting that you are saying God gave me life just to control every aspect of it. Wouldn't it be more of a chance to prove one's worth if he let us roam the world ourselves and come to our own conclusions? The only thing he would need to do is provide a basis for believing in him (which he has not done), and we would have something to aspire to.

I'm sorry but I don't think I actually have to reply to your last statement until you go and read some biology textbooks again. You do that and maybe I'll read the book of John.

 

[docpotter]

That's not at what God is doing. He could very easily control every aspect of your life, but He doesn't. You can do what ever you want. You can jump off a cliff, or you could teach a child to ride a bike, or you could make a sandwich , etc etc.

You have absolute free choice of what to believe, and how to act. One tip I could give you , maybe , is to realize that if God exists you may want to just simply ask Him from your heart to lead you to the truth.

If the bible was a made up book full of lies and nonsense , do you really think it would have been around all of this time ? What if its all true ? It is possible right ?

 

[InterestingUsername]

Again, I would direct you to psychics. They been along for ages (even your bible prosecutes those who were thought of having psychic powers) We have proven time and time again there is no real evidence for psychics, and those who say they are have been exposed as masters of simple techniques to make people believe they are diving into their soul. People still say they are psychic, but they have no real evidence for it. People still believe it however, because it makes them feel good. What is the difference between this and feeling good because you think the big man in the sky cares for you?

 

[docpotter]

There is a huge difference. Where does the power come from ?

There are psychics, what the bible calls " divination ". It has an evil source, as does some magic. Witches, wicca, satanism , paganism, etc. The occult .

This , if anything further proves the bible to be accurate.

 

[Non sequitur]

There is a huge difference. Where does the power come from ?

There are psychics, what the bible calls " divination ". It has an evil source, as does some magic. Witches, wicca, satanism , paganism, etc. The occult .

This , if anything further proves the bible to be accurate.

MUST BE TRUE, THEN.

 

[docpotter]

MUST BE TRUE, THEN.

I concur

 

[Ronald]

Quoting scripture proves nothing and therefore is of no use to me.

It proves nothing nor does quoting anything prove anything. It is of use to you but you evidently have your door closed. You must come to God in humility.

I cannot rely on giving up logic

You don't have to give up logic. You want evidence? Examine the details of the resurrection of Jesus. He was confirmed dead when a Roman guard plunged a sword in his side and water and blood gushed out. They wrapped him up and buried in a tomb with a 1 ton stone in front of it, sealed by and guarded by Roman guards, who were under orders and under the penalty of death if they failed in any way. Angels appeared --according to the guards and they fell paralyzed while the stone was rolled away and Jesus rose from the dead on this third day. His wrappings (shroud) were left undisturbed as if he passed through them. Over 500 people saw him at once and he appeared to many for 40 days afterwards and then ascended. If the body had been stolen, the Pharisees would have found it in an all out search since they did not want this story to live on. The disciples were grieving in a state of depression and also in fear of their lives. They would never attempt overtaking guards to take the body and for what. Their disposition was transformed from broken, cowardice men to courageous preachers filled with power after they saw Him and later received the Holy Spirit. Were they willing to die gruesome deaths for a fabricated story? No. Has Jesus changed lives since then and changed the world ... yes. Logical thinking about this evidence would lead you to believe it.
Do you like baseball? Read about Frank Pastore (an ex-pro pitcher) in his book, Shattered. He was an atheist who used to mock Christians like you do and then when he actually researched the claims made in the Bible for himself, (using rational logic), he found that Jesus is for real and the Bible is the truth. It hasn't been changed, since there are over 5000 manuscripts that have been passed down and transcribed accurately. Textural criticism is used which is a literary method of testing accuracy in the copies made. This is a very strict method that is used for all books of antiquity. You want facts? The Bible has been proven true through archeological finds confirming these people, places and events described existed and happened with hair splitting accuracy. Prophecies have been fulfilled demonstrating that only a supernatural vision must have been given by a supernatural Supreme Being watching over us. If prophets were wrong, they would be stoned to death -- that was the test of a prophet, 100% accuracy. This is why many had faith. You can't make over 300 prophecies about a coming Messiah (given 500-1700 years before his birth) and then have them all come true. Mathematicians have just taken eight prophecies and determined that the odds of one person fulfilled them was 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 So, 300 prophecies fulfilled by chance would prove impossible. Fact? Logic? You don't have to leave your brain at home when you are introduced to the Creator of the Universe. You do have to put your pride aside and assume that you really know nothing about life until you meet your Maker.

I think it is absolutely disgusting that you are saying God gave me life just to control every aspect of it.

He doesn't control you, right now you are influenced mostly by Satan who is putting doubts and lies in your head about God. So far, he is winning and will eventually take your soul ... unless God has you on his list to be saved, which I suspect, then He will draw you to himself at a chosen moment in your life when he will lift that veil so you can see. Right now, you are blind and kind of deaf and dumb to what's going on ... but so were we all! There are spiritual influences good and bad and that is partially why we sometimes make bad choices but mainly it is sin in our lives. Someone said sin is missing the mark. The ten commandments give us an idea what sin is. Have you dishonered your parents, lied, stolen, committed adultery, murdered, coveted, etc.? No one can say they haven't done these things, except Jesus. Not loving God breaks the first four commandments. Again these laws were given so that we understand what sin is. What can one do to get rid of yours sins? Nothing. Jesus can wash away those sins ... if you believe.

I'm sorry but I don't think I actually have to reply to your last statement until you go and read some biology textbooks again. You do that and maybe I'll read the book of John.

Biology does not explain what creates life, where it came from, nor does it attempt to explain what the life force is that directs the growth of a fetus in the womb. It explains what happens but not necessarily how. It is beyond human ability. One cell is more complex than the space shuttle. A paramecium's flagella is as well. Multiply that by trillions of cells opperating contingiently in a process requiring information, functions and processes beyond our knowledge and abilities by what ... chance mindless mutations selected by nature. Does nature think and have a mind to guide this process. DOES THAT SOUND LOGICAL? Nature is water, sunlight, electromagnetic energy, nuclear energy, chemicals and other minerals. Do they think and choose and direct life? No -- that's not logical.
Here is a list of biologists, geneticists, investigative jouralists, all atheists who became Christians after they honestly researched the evidence that demanded a verdict: Alesksandr Sozhenitsyn, C.S. Lewis, George Price, Rick Oliver, Francis Collins and Lee Strobel to mention a few who I would say have more knowledge and logic than you or I do. Another book by Lee Strobel is "A Case for Christ". But you won't bother will you ... just argue your position. You also seem angry and so passionate about getting your anti-christ points heard. If you don't believe in God, why fret and argue about it on a Christian forum? These things shouldn't concern you, you should be happy and at peace ... but there is something going on insided ... a battle within ... anger ... resentment ...no? Something happened in your life that turned you against the idea of God and now you are attacking the concept because things turned bad, you suffered lose or they just didn't turn out the way you wanted them to?

 

[InterestingUsername]

Can you prove that these 500 people were not in fact persuaded to lie, with bribes and promises? Can you prove there wasn't an orchestrated plan to hide the body in an already chosen spot that would not be found? Do not forget that the victors, the powerful and wealthy get to write what goes into the history books.

I would like to know where you read that some 300 prophecies were proven true.

I already have accepted I know nothing of significance. It is not me saying I know what lies beyond the universe, it is you.

No, biology is not an argument for or against the extistence of a creator. Nor does it attempt to be. Just because you have an argument that fits, does not make it the correct argument. Just because you can say "God did it" does not mean God actually did it. Yes, nature is complex. It took millions of years to become this complex. We have not been able to expand our knowledge across millions of years, hardly thousands if you want to push it. Who knows, maybe in the next 100,000 years we could in fact create something as complex as life itself. People before us didn't even believe we would be able to fly. Fast forward to today, and we are beginning to expand space missions to mars.

 

[HoopsMcCaan]

My brother, you're set in your ways, which is fine. I am too. You came here for answers but you will not find anything satisfactory. I know God and Jesus are 100% real, because of my experience with answered prayers, miracles and a blessed life. None of that is proof to you, but it certainly is for me. I, nor anyone here, can post a YouTube link of God appearing and performing miracles to convince you (and even if we could, I doubt you'd believe it). If you want answers, here's what you can do. Tonight, before you go to bed, close the door, get down on your knees, and pray. Explain to God you're having trouble believing, and ask him to, when the time is right, reveal himself. Ask for a sign. Ask for his help, and his guidance. Eventually, you will get it.

If this sounds silly to you, and not something you want to try, then all the best, my friend. I'll pray in your place, but it'd mean a lot more coming from you. You have nothing to lose.

God Bless.

 

[InterestingUsername]

@Ronald

And what about all the atheists who convert to islam because of the supposed accuracy of the qur'an? Why is this any different to converting to christianity because of the accuracy of the bible?

You have got to be kidding me. You just pulled the 'you're just an angry bitter person with a vendetta against Christianity' card, the 'you're an Atheist because something bad happened to you' card, and the 'why argue if your happy not believing' card IN THE SAME POST. I'm not even going to bother with this since it does you nor me any good.

If you can provide some of the 300 prophecies before the bible was made about Jesus, I would be more than happy to look at them, because I looked (albeit briefly) and couldn't find them.

@Hoops

I don't think I will. I have been lulled into believing things because of thinking I saw a sign that validated my beliefs before. When you are actively looking for signs, you begin twisting reality to suit your beliefs. This is why we have young earth creationists. The evidence may be 99% against you but if you have a belief that differs, you will look at the 1% and disregard the other 99% because you found something that suits your beliefs.