The morality and foolishness of the Christian God

Mar 29, 2012
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I HAVE NOT WRITTEN THIS TO INTENTIONALLY OFFEND. PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME THIS EVEN THOUGH I MAY PRESENT HOSTILE VIEWS TOWARDS YOUR RELIGION OR OTHERS.

Hey everyone, I've recently been researching, uh, 'creationism', and how some creationists try to logically and scientifically prove the words of the bible. Although everywhere I've looked, the creationists have a very small understanding of the science they are envoking, as well as creating numerous fallacies in their philosophical 'evidence'. I've come to the conclusion that in no way could creationism, by our knowledge of the world we have now gained today, ever be true. The fact that a sizeable amount of the world put their faith before knowledge in this respect means we will always have creationists, because many will never believe what science has to say. So I want to try and put forward a different angle other than the scientific one. The morality and foolishness of God.

My questions really stems from one main question. If God is all mighty and powerful, then why hasn't he made himself more known to us, so we know for sure he is the real God?
If I was forced to choose a religion on my death bed, how would I know to pick the right one? Go with my gut? Go with the most popular? there are tens of thousands of recognised religions. There is statistically more of a chance that I would get it wrong. So, hypothetically, Buddhism is wrong and Christianity is right, but I chose Buddhism. I meet God and tell him "Sorry, but there was no way for me to logically prove to myself that being a Christian was better than any other religion." What would he do? Would he accept me into his kingdom anyway, even though I did not abide by his rules? Or would he throw me out? "But I have been with moral character all my life! I may not have lived by all your rules, but I treated others the way I wished to be treated, and caused no intentional harm, injury or offense to anyone else! Just because I could find no undeniable proof that Christianity was the right religion, or indeed logically correct, that gives you cause to reject me from your arms?" What would he do?

I recently had someone tell me he believed the devil is everywhere, trying to tempt me away from God. He writes the books that tell us there is no logical evidence for God. This got me thinking.

Assuming the devil is writing these books, why hasn't God countered them? To test our faith, you would tell me. But when the devil is using logic that we are familiar with (science and reasoning) to tempt us away, God is relying solely on good faith to keep us at bay. I find it incredibly naive of God to think that we would not be swayed to the devil's side, when he is using the only thing we base our own knowledge on, facts, to disprove him. We judge everything else on facts, so why can't God realise this and help us out? At this rate, most of the world will not reach his kingdom. Not because they believe in a different religion, but because God hasn't been able to prove himself to us by the only way we know how to prove facts. For something to be found reasonable, one must be able to experience it, or logically prove it. Not necessarily scientifically, but just with reason and logic. Since God has not been able to do this about himself, the devil will claim most of the world. Why can't he understand that a lot of us actually need proof of his existence before we accept his existence? We are walking straight into the devil's arms all because God would rather rely on us going against everything we have done to expand our knowledge by choosing his faith with no proof, than actually help us by guiding us toward him with science, reason, logic and experience.

Forget the fact I don't actually agree with the rules God wishes me to abide by, but the mere fact that God is actually intellectually weak, foolish and naive makes it extremely hard for me to actually believe he is all mighty and powerful after all.


Could someone prove me wrong please?
 
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Someguy, To make sure I'm fully understanding, could you please describe what this quote means exactly?


Edit: Ok, I think I understand it. So your bible tells you that, just because I am not 'saved' and think the word of God and indeed God himself is foolish, I am not allowed in God's kingdom?

So you are saying, I will perish because you cannot prove to me that the word of God and indeed God himself is actually the truth?
 
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Alright, I'll bite. Your post is full of passion, and honest questions that turn many people towards atheism. (It's funny, I left a forum because I was tired of debating with atheists, due to them calling me names as their argument, and the first thing I do on this site is engage with an unbeliever).

First of all, I say unbeliever because there are truly no non believers in this world. Everyone is hard wired to know God. We're designed from birth to have an understanding of God, obviously only to an extent, because once people start thinking for themselves is when they decide to keep or abandon their faith. This is why tribes deep in the heart of Africa, without any hint of the outside world, the Bible, or other spiritual guidance, worship an almighty creator.

I appreciate your questions because it means you're not a hardened Atheist just yet. You sincerely can't understand why God doesn't just reveal himself. A lot of people take this as a negative. A nasty little trick played on us by a supposed all loving God. In my belief, this is not the case at all.

To state that there is no possibility of a creator is incredulous to me. I feel the exact opposite. In my opinion, there is no possible way there is NO God. I don't really know where to start to refute this, but answer me this question. I'll assume we can agree that the human brain is the most miraculous, complicated piece of "machinery" on earth, other than earth itself. You believe it came about by accident. The human brain has created just about everything else you see these days, from the rubber band to the stealth bomber. So why, if random chance created life, has the human brain never created one thing that came to be by "accident" and why hasn't an "accident" ever created one thing made by the human brain. It should be possible by your rationale. A paper clip should have no problem after billions of years to take shape, and an apple seed should be easy to assemble by humans these days. Compare a man made snowflake with an actual snowflake. A worm engineered to build a cocoon, melt down into a liquid, and rebuild itself to become a completely different creature with wings, does not seem fathomable to be just an accident. The butterfly is one of God's most amazing creations, and thats just the tip of the iceberg. To not believe in a designer, in my opinion, is to not want to believe. As simple as that.

Questions like, how can a loving God send me to hell because I got the religion wrong, fuels anger in a lot of people, so out of spite, rejection of God seems like the best route. You ask why doesn't God refute the works of the Devil (I don't, by the way, believe those book are written by the Devil, but I digress). Well, he did. He wrote the Bible. Everything you need to know about him is in there. How do you suppose it's lasted 2000 years? Have any other works lasted that long? Don't you think if it really was untrue, it would have fallen by the wayside by now as just a fad? Not to mention, it is proven to be the most authentic piece of ancient writing in the history of the world, by leaps and bounds. Archeological findings have proven so many aspects of the Bible to be true, it's quite overwhelming. The Dead Sea Scrolls being one of the most recent, as well as one of the most amazing. Also, Jesus is one truly unique figure in comparison to other religions, seeing as how he is the only one to claim he is the actual Son of God. There are also many scientific facts stated in the Bible which wouldn't have been available to people living that long ago. For example, many times it is mentioned that God is expanding the Heavens like a curtain. The universe is indeed expanding. It is written that when the side of Jesus was punctured is the side, blood and water poured from the wound. It would not be known at that time that both blood and water do indeed seep from such wounds. I also encourage you to look up all the archeological findings that coincide with the stories in the Bible. The 300+ Prophecies in Isaiah which were full-filled by Christ himself are the clincher for me, and they have been proven to be dated over 200 years before Christ.

So how do we know Christianity is the right religion? The insurmountable amount of evidence. It's out there. It exists. Before you write off God completely, open you mind and your heart and do research. There will be things that may be tough for you to swallow, but you have to ask yourself: do you really believe your mind is capable of thinking in terms of God? You really think you know what He would or should be doing? Especially if you're just rearranged pond scum? Knowledge is also knowing that you don't know much. I humble myself before God, and know that when I eventually enter his kingdom, I will spend an eternity learning, and that I cannot wait for. Why on Earth you'd want to write all that off on a whim is beyond me. Christianity is not something to take lightly and dismiss just cause you can't understand a couple things. You owe it to yourself to find out more, if for no other reason than to have all the facts to base your conclusion on.

One final thought. God doesn't send anyone to hell. If one wants nothing to do with God in life, it would be unjust and unloving to force that love upon them, and drag them by his side. Heaven would be hell for a non believer.

God is out there, his wonderful works are around us every day, and to deny him is usually out of self righteousness. The power of prayer is amazing. Ask him to reveal himself in some way, and eventually, he will. Just be sure love is in your heart when you do.

God bless you. I hope one day you find a reason to want to believe.
 
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docpotter

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If you wait till you are on your " death bed " you will have not really tried to find the truth . God wants us to seek Him. To seek the truth.

The Christian God is THE only God. The rest are false. And by simply spending some diligent time searching you will find this to be very true.

Good Luck to you
 
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Ok, I wasn't clear enough on my definition of creationism, I apologise. I mean specifically creationists who also follow actual religions such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. Not those who just believe the universe was created.
I am not stating there is absolutely no possibility of a creator. Obviously there is a very real chance the universe was 'created', but it is illogical to assume that just because it was created, that it was created for a purpose. Or that we are the sole purpose.
Lets say the universe was in fact created, what makes you think said creator wants to be our friend? Or wants us to worship it? Wants to give us joy, happiness, trials of faith? That it feels things like joy and happiness, as well as anger and wrath? There may be a creator, but we cannot assume it's characteristics, as there is no way to prove them. We don't know it is an all-knowing, all-loving deity, that it wishes us to abide by it's rules, or will punish us for not doing so. We just can't prove it.

I never said I believe everything was an accident. It is still a possibility, but I don't know for sure.
I don't understand what you mean about the brain, and in fact, the rest of that statement. It wasn't created by accident, it evolved extensively over time into fantastic complexity. Plus, if we were created by random chance, the brain cannot be a creator of random chance, as it would be a product of it.
As for the complexity of life statement, just because there has been order out of chaos does not mean there was a plan put in place to create order. There would be a much better argument for a creator if we evolved like pokemon, not over a long period of time, and certainly not to adapt better to ever changing environments. This is not random chance. It is a product of it, which then adapted to chaos to grow order.

The only reason I see the bible being able to last, is because it fooled a lot of people. How have psychics (who are proven fakes) still around, practicing something from centuries ago? Because they have fooled a lot of people. There was an account of a man who knew about the techniques such as cold reading of fake psychics, who went to a psychic show and was called up on stage by the psychic. He strung along the psychic for a while before standing up and proving to the audience he was a fake, showing them all the tricks he used to fool them. The interesting thing is, people who watched the show came up to him after the show and shouted at him, for hurting the audience members who sincerely believed the psychic was talking to their dead relatives. Even though they were shown he was a fake, they still wanted to believe it because it gave them a sense of comfort believing that their dead relatives were reaching out to them through this man. They ignore the fact psychics use these techniques because it makes them feel good. The only 2 reasons it is still around is that fake psychics have money and power to gain, and people will ignore the truth and protect that which gives them joy.
Something which you don't want to question and gives you joy. I could be talking about the bible, or psychics in that sentence and it would still make sense.

You cannot state that since there are apparent facts in the bible, it has to be true. The nature of the way it was written allows creationists to say 'this was meant to be a metaphor' for the more outlandish statements, and then twisting others such as the blood and water one. But, assuming that is in fact what it meant, what about the Qur'an, and all of it's mathematical, geological, and scientific supposed facts? What is the difference, if they both claim such miraculous facts?

I owe it to myself to find out more about your religion? No, I believe you owe it to yourself to find out more about the facts against your religion first, before trying to give the arguments for it. To say it is self rightousness to doubt something with reason is complete ignorance and bigotry.
 
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Non sequitur

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Alright, I'll bite. Your post is full of passion, and honest questions that turn many people towards atheism. (It's funny, I left a forum because I was tired of debating with atheists, due to them calling me names as their argument, and the first thing I do on this site is engage with an unbeliever).

First of all, I say unbeliever because there are truly no non believers in this world. Everyone is hard wired to know God. We're designed from birth to have an understanding of God, obviously only to an extent, because once people start thinking for themselves is when they decide to keep or abandon their faith. This is why tribes deep in the heart of Africa, without any hint of the outside world, the Bible, or other spiritual guidance, worship an almighty creator...

*snip*

Ugh. The No True Atheist claim...

There is no "worship an almighty creator", across the board.

Tribes in Africa are monotheists, polytheists (some believe all gods are evil) and agnostic.

God bless you. I hope one day you find a reason to want to believe.

I think the the easiest part of any religion are reasons to want to believe. This doesn't seem that much of a hope.
 
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docpotter

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" What about the Quran "....

That is a good question . Lets take a snap shot of the Quran versus the Christian bible.

Christian bible - Written over thousands of years by 40 different authors, with accounts of generation after generation of genealogies. A full account of the kings of Israel. Unshakable historical data in the New Testament ( IE Roman leaders , census data , archeological findings , etc )

But all the books of the Christian bible flow together perfectly leading to the coming Savior / Messiah , Jesus. Who fulfilled all the prophesies about him foretold.


The Quran was written from the teaching of ONE man , Mohammad. This was 700 years after Jesus death and ressurection. The Quran denies Jesus was raised from the dead. They both cannot be accurate.

This is Easter ( Holy week ) where Christians celebrate the risen Christ. Why ? ...Because His tomb was empty !!!

Mohammad died and stayed dead, Confuciois died , and stayed dead, budda died , and stayed dead. Jesus was raised back from death. And this is the ball game
 
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To be honest, everything you said makes the Qur'an more believable than the Bible in my eyes. The Qur'an was written in a shorter time period, yes after Jesus, but it's believers still claim all of it's scientific and mathematical miracles. Not by 40 like minded thinkers, only one. He wrote it all down, without any external influence amongst his peers, no? By writing the bible over thousands of years, it's writers had much more time to perfect it did they not? Shape it into such a way that it would still be believable centuries into the future?
The fact that no one has risen from the dead before or after Jesus apparently did gives more reason to disbelieve this claim, especially since the other religions who mention him do not claim his resurrection took place, nor do their own prophet's resurrections take place.
 
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Mohammad died and stayed dead, Confuciois died , and stayed dead, budda died , and stayed dead. Jesus was raised back from death. And this is the ball game

That doesn't scratch the surface of making your argument valid. Why would you expect these claims to hold any weight?

We've never seen any instances of this happening, ever.

Simply declaring it does not make it a real event.
 
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docpotter

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That doesn't scratch the surface of making your argument valid. Why would you expect these claims to hold any weight?

We've never seen any instances of this happening, ever.

Simply declaring it does not make it a real event.
Oh really ? Well explain to me the empty tomb of Jesus then please. And take into consideration it is basically a given even among atheist historians that Jesus lived, died ( by crucifixion ) and His tomb was empty .

Or perhaps explain the disciples of Christ days after His death risking being beheaded, fed to lions, sawed in half , etc over a lie ? And mind you , they would have known it was over a lie
 
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So you are saying that because people centuries ago found an empty tomb that housed a dead man, it is logical to conclude that the dead man became alive again and got out? What about all the other possibilities, that are more logical to assume, other than supernatural intervention?
A detective finds a dead body on the street. He examines all possibilities of what caused the death. The man has no physical wounds whatsoever, which rules out the possibility of a physical attack. This doesn't mean to say that God struck him down where he stood. It's a possibility, but one based on an inconsistent capability. We have not known a being from the sky to strike people down, and therefore it is illogical to believe in this assumption. It doesn't mean it is not true, but it has the same amount of probability for it being true as a flying pink unicorn with one leg melting the man's brain instead. There is more basis to believe in a poisoning, or a heart attack for instance, because they usually do not leave physical effects on the body, can kill, and they have a fantastically consistent probability of happening when a man is found dead with no physical wounds.
When there is an empty tomb with the stone in front of it rolled away, why do you think it is more logical to assume that the dead had risen and got out, than a group of people rolled the stone away, and took the body? Why is it logical to claim truth in the fact that he had risen, when only his believers had seen him after the body disappeared? You cannot cite this as evidence when it is inconsistent when up against other cases (i.e, nobody has EVER been known to rise from the dead, and people have robbed graves and tombs before).

In the 21st century, we can not conclude that the historical accounts are in fact accurate, when they are not consistent with our knowledge gained today, nor our experiences.
 
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Oh really ? Well explain to me the empty tomb of Jesus then please. And take into consideration it is basically a given even among atheist historians that Jesus lived, died ( by crucifixion ) and His tomb was empty .

My theories are:

1) Aliens took him
2) People removed him

Please disprove both of my theories, without using any blanket assertions, otherwise, I can do the same to disprove yours.

Or perhaps explain the disciples of Christ days after His death risking being beheaded, fed to lions, sawed in half , etc over a lie ? And mind you , they would have known it was over a lie

Just because you can't see or think of any other reason (assuming that we accept your statements as true), doesn't mean you're right.
 
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docpotter

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So that's it? No more defense?
If your asking me , no . After having read the last few comments I can see it would be futile.

The one thing I can say is that if you truly seek God , you will find Him. Ask God to show you the truth, and He will.

And consider this , if God is God , an unseen , all powerful creator of the universe, then " logic " as we know it is going to shaken up a bit. I hope you all find the truth , I really do .
 
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If your asking me , no . After having read the last few comments I can see it would be futile.

The one thing I can say is that if you truly seek God , you will find Him. Ask God to show you the truth, and He will.

And consider this , if God is God , an unseen , all powerful creator of the universe, then " logic " as we know it is going to shaken up a bit. I hope you all find the truth , I really do .

Oh, not this continuing-is-futile business...

That is such an cop out.

I'm sorry that all three theories have the same weight, by your "gotcha"-logic.
 
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