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I think you've missed the whole point of this argument, actually. You're supposed to prove your premises... both of them. You aren't supposed to prove the whole thing wrong by proving premise 2 is wrong. But if you want to concede that this argument is a failure, then that's up to you.
How is it justice to be held responsible for the actions of others?
Technically yes. I can slaughter all my neighbors and still be capable of going to heaven through redemption and grace.
How is that justice? I am not the judge. All I have to say is I am glad you are not God.
Why not? Thin skin?Not anything. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven.
God sacrifices Himself to Himself to change a rule He made Himself, in order to convince Himself to forgive a small portion of humanity for the crimes of two people who some Christians don't even believe existed as real people. Is this accurate?And you're wrong. Christ paid the debt all men owe on the cross.
A good thing, for those serial killers, and the like.There, justice was served for your sins and mine. It just wasn't served to us, but to Christ. It is called substitionary atonement.
Unless you are simply not convinced that this wild story comports with observations of reality. Then you will burn for eternity. Such a loving god you have there.Mercy and wrath meet at the cross which was made possible by love which graced us with Jesus.
As the word is used in the common vernacular, that is not justice.
Yet here you are, declaring what is objectively bad without any criteria.
And I am glad that gods are only characters in books. But for the purposes of discussion, I grant you them for the purposes of this hypothetical.
How about the disbeliever? Seeing as belief is not a conscious choice (unlike the serial killers' actions), do they have any chance of achieving "justice" in this theology of yours?
What objective morality?So what are you trying to prove based on the premises? The options are: God does not exist therefore objective morality does not exist or that God does exist therefore objective morality does exist? Not, God is not required for objective morality. Reread the OP.
The verse I left out only matters if God is real and that can make things a justification for actions that are abhorrent without Him treating humans as clay pots. The other verses you bolded are just about geographic proximity. How exactly does geographic proximity factor in to beginning a relationship with a lie, and then making slaves after that lie? How are these not objectively wrong without invoking the sovereignty of God?I took the liberty of highlighting the key points that you missed and added the verse that you left out.
No, people can just be incorrect about their morals. It doesn't take an outside source to look at a moral and deem it wrong. The more we know, and the more we can measure on our own, the better we can judge what is moral and what is not. We've done a bad job for a long time because we knew less. But now that we know more, we can judge better.
Part of defining morality comes from arguing and reasoning based on evidence. I can't imagine society going back on this rule that they've established (no slavery). So we have learned something that everyone should follow. We'll learn more.
I still disagree because recover =/= survive. But it would be too far off topic for us to argue about it here, so let's agree on what we can. It is okay to beat a slave so bad that he is incapacitated for days.
Lots of ways to convince employees to work. The authors of the Bible didn't know about them yet though.
Why not? Thin skin?
God sacrifices Himself to Himself to change a rule He made Himself, in order to convince Himself to forgive a small portion of humanity for the crimes of two people who some Christians don't even believe existed as real people. Is this accurate?
A good thing, for those serial killers, and the like.
Unless you are simply not convinced that this wild story comports with observations of reality. Then you will burn for eternity. Such a loving god you have there.
You said, "It's not a choice for us because it has already been made and now we are sinners."Like I already said, we are not.
Sure, but from what I gather, even serial killers can get a pass.We are responsible for our own wrongs.
Now you are back to one being held responsible for things beyond one's control.It doesn't matter that we aren't sinners by our own faults--we still are.
You can consciously change your beliefs?Whoa. What do you mean, "belief is not a counscious choice"?
Once you've taken awareness of your beliefs and know others, you can change them.
True, in a way. But that can be as simple as understanding how traveling and mobility works. We used to think the best way to get from one place to another was to walk, then to use horses, then to use cars, then to use airplanes, etc... This doesn't mean that there was a purpose behind travel, or that a divine intelligence invented travel so that we could learn how to fly. It just means that we learned how best to work with our environment, much in the same way with morality, we learned how best to work with our co-inhabitants.i just thought about something, it's interesting to say that as we learn more, we know better. That seems to presuppose the existence of morality in the sense that we need to discover it, like all truths.
How did they know that it was good to trust him if knowledge of good and evil was withheld from them and forbidden to them?
But I think with my head.The blessed thing about all this is God knows your heart.
No, but we can examine the absurdities of your theologies, and how you think this "judgement" will work, if it has any basis in reality.We cannot pass judgment on you
Perhaps that was lost in the arrogant and condescending tones.and we love you.
Scare tactic fail. Let's just stick with the hypotheticals for the moment, shall we?God will be the judge of you.
So what are you trying to prove based on the premises? The options are: God does not exist therefore objective morality does not exist or that God does exist therefore objective morality does exist? Not, God is not required for objective morality. Reread the OP.
You can consciously change your beliefs?
Try it right now. Choose to believe that gods are only characters in books.
Have you done it yet?
True, in a way. But that can be as simple as understanding how traveling and mobility works. We used to think the best way to get from one place to another was to walk, then to use horses, then to use cars, then to use airplanes, etc... This doesn't mean that there was a purpose behind travel, or that a divine intelligence invented travel so that we could learn how to fly. It just means that we learned how best to work with our environment, much in the same way with morality, we learned how best to work with our co-inhabitants.
Nope, sorry, can't agree with that. I believe that there are things that no one should do, and that everyone should do, based on the basic definition of morality (as much things as people want as possible versus as few things as people don't want as possible). If God is more qualified to determine this than us, it is only because he knows more. We continue to know more, so we constantly become more and more moral, therefore, God is unnecessary for objective morals, unless we insist on having them right away.Except, can we at least agree on the logic of the argument? Truly objective morality could not exist without God.
You said, "It's not a choice for us because it has already been made and now we are sinners."
Which is it?
Sure, but from what I gather, even serial killers can get a pass.
Now you are back to one being held responsible for things beyond one's control.
I think this "morality" system of yours needs some work.
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