The missionary paradox

[Tempus Fugit]

Do those good people who die without knowledge of God go to hell, or do they go to heaven because they were good, unknowingly ignorant people?

If they go to hell - how could you possibly worship such a monster?

If they go to heaven - then aren't missionaries actually damning millions to hell worldwide?

 

[bling]

Going to heaven is not the objective, but those that fulfill their objective will go to heaven and those that never had the opportunity to fulfill their objective while here on earth will also go to heaven, but without ever being able to fulfill their objective.

Fulfilling your objective will make you like God Himself in that you will have Godly type Love (and God is Love). Not ever having the opportunity to fulfill your earthly objective, will mean you go to heaven with only a wonderful child for parent type love and will have to be preserved and protected by those that have Godly type Love.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

Fulfilling your objective will make you like God Himself in that you will have Godly type Love (and God is Love). Not ever having the opportunity to fulfill your earthly objective, will mean you go to heaven with only a wonderful child for parent type love and will have to be preserved and protected by those that have Godly type Love.

But that isn't fair for those who lived and died before missionaries got around to their location. And it's one thing to handwave the fact that God seems to passively condone the fact that life clearly is not fair now, but to suggest that your eternal fate (even if you still go to heaven) is diminished as a result of being born into a remote region of the planet doesn't fit with God's role as a benevolent deity. Missionaries cannot get to everyone.

 

[bling]

But that isn't fair for those who lived and died before missionaries got around to their location. And it's one thing to handwave the fact that God seems to passively condone the fact that life clearly is not fair now, but to suggest that your eternal fate (even if you still go to heaven) is diminished as a result of being born into a remote region of the planet doesn't fit with God's role as a benevolent deity. Missionaries cannot get to everyone.

Actually the “system” God/Christ established (and can easily be seen in Christ’s life) would allow everyone on earth to personally spend as much time as they would like to spend; one on one with Christ (deity). Every nonbeliever should have the opportunity to spend enough time with Christ living in and through a true Christian to the point they can, of their own free will, full accept or reject God’s Love.

The fact that system is not working right now today is not God’s fault, but the fault of true Christians who have not allowed Christ to work through them making other true Christians.

As far as those that never have the opportunity, there is some sadness in that they will never have the opportunity to develop Godly type Love, but are they “losers” in heaven? What it means is: those that do have Godly type Love will Love those that do not have Godly type Love with a greater Love than they can Love back, so who is the loser in that situation?

 

[dhh712]

Do those good people who die without knowledge of God go to hell, or do they go to heaven because they were good, unknowingly ignorant people?

If they go to hell - how could you possibly worship such a monster?

If they go to heaven - then aren't missionaries actually damning millions to hell worldwide?

I have considered this question before and I do not have a clear answer. Personally, I trust that God is merciful, compassionate, and just. I also know that He is far more complex than I can possibly understand. In order for me to worship God, I do not have to have Him explained to me so that my limited mortal mind can comprehend His mysterious ways.

I wish I could have a better answer for you. My impression is that those who want God to be reasonable to them before they can worship Him are not really seeking Him but reason.

 

[aiki]

Do those good people who die without knowledge of God go to hell, or do they go to heaven because they were good, unknowingly ignorant people?

Jesus answers this question:

Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few..."

God judges us according to our knowledge. Those who did not know of the Gospel will receive "a few stripes." That is, their punishment will be less than those who knew the truth of the Gospel and refused it.

No one can claim complete ignorance of God. Sure, many may try to, but God's Word is clear that every human person has some sense of God's existence. Unfortunately, most humans suppress their innate knowledge of God in favor of serving themselves. Paul the apostle explains:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

We all have some light, some basic understanding that God is, and God holds us accountable for what we do with that light. If we seek to know more about God, to increase our light, God promises to respond and to meet us in our search for Him.

Jeremiah 29:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

This was God's promise to the Israelites and He makes a similar to one to us today:

James 4:8-10
8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Many are the stories of God reaching into the lives of people far removed from the sound of the Gospel and bringing them to faith in Christ. When we search for God sincerely, He will move mountains if necessary to be found by us. There is, then, no person who will one day stand before God and be able to legitimately say, "I had no idea you even existed!"

If they go to hell - how could you possibly worship such a monster?

It is only those who are steeped in sin and perfectly comfortable with it that rise up in protest and call the holy One who will judge and punish that sin a "monster." So deeply entrenched in sin and darkness, such people cannot fathom God's hatred of something with which they so are so easy and from which they take so much pleasure. It never occurs to them that they are the one's whose attitude and response to sin is in error. They are too far into darkness to have such clarity about it. But God sees sin for what it really is and His wrathful judgment upon it will not be stayed even though those who love their sin think Him a monster.

All those who stand before God's judgment seat will receive precisely what they ought to receive. No person will ever stand before God good enough to satisfy His perfectly holy and righteous standard. That is why we all so desperately need Christ and his perfect righteousness to atone for our sin and cover us.

If they go to heaven - then aren't missionaries actually damning millions to hell worldwide?

Missionaries don't damn anyone to hell. People do that for themselves. See above. The Good News is that God has made a way for any who wish to escape His judgment to do so. No one has to go to hell. As C.S. Lewis noted, the door to hell is locked from the inside.

Selah.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

Actually the “system” God/Christ established (and can easily be seen in Christ’s life) would allow everyone on earth to personally spend as much time as they would like to spend; one on one with Christ (deity). Every nonbeliever should have the opportunity to spend enough time with Christ living in and through a true Christian to the point they can, of their own free will, full accept or reject God’s Love.

It is physically impossible for missionaries to get the word out to everyone, given that people die worldwide in multitudes every second.

The fact that system is not working right now today is not God’s fault, but the fault of true Christians who have not allowed Christ to work through them making other true Christians.

This is like refusing to help a homeless person because it technically isn't your fault that he has no home, it was the fault of a recent hurricane. Is this how God thinks?

As far as those that never have the opportunity, there is some sadness in that they will never have the opportunity to develop Godly type Love

And on what grounds is this justified? They were screwed over by birthplace.

Missionaries don't damn anyone to hell. People do that for themselves.

OK but now we're playing word games, like "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Maybe I should reword my question: doesn't this mean there is a causal link between missionary activity and people being damned that otherwise would be given a pass on ignorance?

 

[bling]

It is physically impossible for missionaries to get the word out to everyone, given that people die worldwide in multitudes every second.

It was possible 40 years ago to reach every living person living today and if we started today perhaps in 40 years or so from now everyone that is living 40 years from now, would be reached. But unfortunately there is no way to go from where we are to everyone today. It is not the system God provided that is at fault since it is the very best system man could have, but if good true Christians fail the result will be felt in more people going to heaven without Godly type Love to be preserved and protect for eternity by possible those that did not serve them while on earth.

This is like refusing to help a homeless person because it technically isn't your fault that he has no home, it was the fault of a recent hurricane. Is this how God thinks?

No. There is just no better way for it to work.

And on what grounds is this justified? They were screwed over by birthplace.

Think for a moment, if you entered heaven with just a very wonderful child type love for a wonderful parent, a lesser form of Love than a Godly type Love you would still love others in heaven, but they would Love you and want to serve you with an even greater Love, so who is the loser in that scenario?

OK but now we're playing word games, like "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Maybe I should reword my question: doesn't this mean there is a causal link between missionary activity and people being damned that otherwise would be given a pass on ignorance?

No, not at all. Missionaries do not keep people from going to hell (those that rebelliously refuse God’s Charity), but missionaries provide a way for those going to heaven to fulfill their earthly objective and be able to enter heaven with Godly type Love and not with just some lower form of love.

 

[Vanilla Scripture]

Do those good people who die without knowledge of God go to hell, or do they go to heaven because they were good, unknowingly ignorant people?

If they go to hell - how could you possibly worship such a monster?

If they go to heaven - then aren't missionaries actually damning millions to hell worldwide?

An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell? No, said the priest, not if you did not know. Then why, asked the Inuit earnestly, did you tell me?



Annie Dillard

 

[Tempus Fugit]

It was possible 40 years ago to reach every living person living today and if we started today perhaps in 40 years or so from now everyone that is living 40 years from now, would be reached. But unfortunately there is no way to go from where we are to everyone today. It is not the system God provided that is at fault since it is the very best system man could have, but if good true Christians fail the result will be felt in more people going to heaven without Godly type Love to be preserved and protect for eternity by possible those that did not serve them while on earth.

How is that fair?

No. There is just no better way for it to work.

Only if you leave out the part that God is supposedly omnipotent. Christians believe he's OK with contacting you spiritually, so why is it that he strangely only ever does this to people who have already been exposed to Christianity through mortal means? It seems strangely consistent with the "God is a cultural phenomenon" theory; to insist that he is a real and powerful being requires far more convoluted mental gymnastics, which is a big no-no when dealing with occam's razor.

Think for a moment, if you entered heaven with just a very wonderful child type love for a wonderful parent, a lesser form of Love than a Godly type Love you would still love others in heaven, but they would Love you and want to serve you with an even greater Love, so who is the loser in that scenario?

Either there is a loser, in which case it's not fair, or there is no loser, in which case missionaries are pointless. Either way, you can't have God be just and missionary work be relevant at the same time.

No, not at all. Missionaries do not keep people from going to hell (those that rebelliously refuse God’s Charity), but missionaries provide a way for those going to heaven to fulfill their earthly objective and be able to enter heaven with Godly type Love and not with just some lower form of love.

But whatever happens the point is that missionaries either demonstrate that your eternal fate (or just love) is not meritocratic, or that missionary work is pointless.

 

[St_Worm2]

Do those good people who die without knowledge of God go to hell, or do they go to heaven because they were good, unknowingly ignorant people?

If they go to hell - how could you possibly worship such a monster?

Hi TF, a "good" person will go to Heaven w/o question. The problem is, the standard we humans measure "good" by is a different standard than God uses. IOW, no one is going to Heaven because they are a better person than, say, Hitler. There is no grading on the curve in this case. "GOOD" means "PERFECT"!

That said, God, while He does not act according to what is fair or unfair, He most certainly acts according to what is right or wrong, just or unjust. NO ONE will go to Hell because they've never heard of Jesus Christ! The Bible makes it clear that God will judge us on the basis of what we know, not according to what we don't know .. (Romans 2)

--David

 

[hedrick]

I don't see any evidence in Scripture that preaching to someone makes them worse off. However there's no explicit treatment of how judgement is done, particularly for unreached people (beyond the obvious point that anyone with faith in God will be saved). My understanding of Rom 2 and other passages is that God is present to everyone, and people respond per their situation. If someone who hasn't heard responds to the Holy Spirit's work with them, I would think they would become a Christian given the chance. So I don't see how hearing would make them worse off.

Beyond that reasonable people can disagree. Knowing about Christ's work, and experiencing God's love through Christians (assuming we're doing our job right -- unfortunately not always the case) is used by God to reach people, so I speculate that a higher fraction of people who have heard are saved.

Note that for Jesus the Gospel is about establishing God's rule on earth. That means that preaching the Gospel isn't just about keeping people out of hell. It's about a better way of life.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

Hi TF, a "good" person will go to Heaven w/o question. The problem is, the standard we humans measure "good" by is a different standard than God uses. IOW, no one is going to Heaven because they are a better person than, say, Hitler. There is no grading on the curve in this case. "GOOD" means "PERFECT"!

So I assume you dismiss the concept of original sin?

But why would God create humans with (compared with him) infinitesimal intellect and natural, involuntary emotions he then ridiculously turns around and labels as sins, and then judge us by his own standards? He, not having any of these arbitrary limitations? This is akin to tying a 7 year old's hands behind his back and then punishing him for not being able to run the 100 meter in under 10 seconds.

That said, God, while He is does not act according to what is fair or unfair, most certainly acts according to what is right or wrong, just or unjust. NO ONE will go to Hell because they've never heard of Jesus Christ! The Bible makes it clear that God will judge us on the basis of what we know, not according to what we don't know .. (Romans 2)

With all due respect you're ignoring the very point I make in the OP - if this is true, don't missionaries therefore do more harm than good, for people that would otherwise get a pass now would possibly be damned?

 

[Vanilla Scripture]

When Jesus died on the cross he insured universal reconciliation to the father. This does not imply universal salvation however.
Those who never heard of Jesus are reconciled because all of creation and God's presence on their heart brings them back to God due to Christs sacrifice.
1Timothy 4:10

 

[St_Worm2]

So I assume you dismiss the concept of original sin?

Hi TF, no, of course not. Nobody (as they say) is perfect. You don't need the Bible to tell you that and nothing else can explain the universality of sin other than the Fall.

I've got to go right now, so I'll have to finish this later. Let me leave you with two thoughts however:

1) NO ONE is "good".
2) NO ONE gets a "pass".
​

I will explain both points more thoroughly later.

--David

 

[Tempus Fugit]

Hi TF, no, of course not. Nobody (as they say) is perfect.

Original sin suggests that we are born with sin before we even have a chance to sin ourselves. It's guilt by association passed down through thousands of generations.

BTW, are you suggesting that "not being perfect" justifies being tortured for all eternity? That doesn't really make any sense, does it?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Ignorance is not an excuse to God at all. Using this idea in reverse a crafty parent could decide that NOT telling their children about God would make them ignorant about him and there could be a higher chance that instead of having the choice to outright accept or reject him that their good deeds throughout their lifetime could be the standard set for them to escape Hell. This is truly what happens not necessarily as an intention of parents wishing to see their children saved but because parents decide to reject God and essentially encourage their children and those around them do do likewise either directly or by shrouding them in ignorance about what they could say about God to them... perhaps enough that some would accept God.

 

[bling]

How is that fair?

It is the best that can be done. Nothing bad happens to the innocent.

Only if you leave out the part that God is supposedly omnipotent. Christians believe he's OK with contacting you spiritually, so why is it that he strangely only ever does this to people who have already been exposed to Christianity through mortal means? It seems strangely consistent with the "God is a cultural phenomenon" theory; to insist that he is a real and powerful being requires far more convoluted mental gymnastics, which is a big no-no when dealing with occam's razor.

God knows the free will choices you make but that is because you made them. There are some things God just cannot do.

Either there is a loser, in which case it's not fair, or there is no loser, in which case missionaries are pointless. Either way, you can't have God be just and missionary work be relevant at the same time.



But whatever happens the point is that missionaries either demonstrate that your eternal fate (or just love) is not meritocratic, or that missionary work is pointless.

It is somewhat like this: There will be those that go to heaven as “children” spiritually (has nothing to do with the age at the time of their death) and others will go to heaven as spiritual adults. Becoming a spiritual adult may be perceived as being preferable, but there is the risk of being held accountable as an adult for rejecting God’s Love and some will do just that.

God cannot force a spiritual adult to accept His Love, but wants everyone to do just that. So in order to have some beings become like God “in Love”, others will be lost (part of the huge price for having some accept). The missionary is not causing these people to be “lost” since that is their choice, but the missionary is sharing in God’s objective of providing the opportunity for spiritual children to become spiritual adults that accept God’s Love.

 

[aiki]

OK but now we're playing word games, like "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Maybe I should reword my question: doesn't this mean there is a causal link between missionary activity and people being damned that otherwise would be given a pass on ignorance?

For reasons I explained in my last post, no one is given a pass into heaven because of ignorance. Missionaries, then, don't remove this option by preaching the Gospel. What missionaries accomplish by preaching the Gospel is to help save souls from eternal punishment and bring the lost into joyful fellowship with their Maker.

Selah.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

It is the best that can be done.

But it isn't, because God is supposed to be omnipotent.