The misinformation pandemic

[Consolation]

Your posts do not exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit that is expected of genuine Christians. I hope you will repent and offer a genuine apology

 

[Consolation]

I want to extend a warm thank you to those genuine brothers and sisters who over the last few days have welcomed me and post in good faith.

However, I have decided to move on from this site as there are too many rude and antagonistic posters who seem to be here to troll and ruin serious discussion. Why the moderators allow this is beyond me.

I will respond to those who have emailed me privately

 

[Tom 1]

I get the impression some people were fed up with someone that tries to push buttons.

I think a gadfly needs to have something useful to add as well as pushing buttons, and some credibility too. The conservative U.K. publication The Spectator has a lot of contributing writers who ask provocative questions about the general direction of society and this or that thing - that is useful, and they are all credible people. I don’t think that can really be put in the same category as the random half-baked notions and outright nonsense that does the rounds on YouTube etc.

 

[disciple Clint]

Trump is an example, that isn't to say anyone who supports him thinks in the same way, I think that's reading too much into the post. I'm not so sure about Trump and what will eventually be the result, regarding the economy he certainly shook things up a bit - riding on around 10 years of slow but steady growth he injected some adrenaline that has certainly produced some effects. While I'm not an economist, I think it is fairly safe to say that boom economics tends to lead to a bust sooner or later, and when the dust settles it is usually only a very few at the top who reap any lasting benefits. Maybe this boom would have been different, maybe not. What I mean though is not the overall results of his being president, but his tendency to push phony ideas and pseudo-science etc, the whole 'fake news' rallying cry and so on. That doesn't necessarily mean that he is bad for the US or for the world, in itself, in any and every way, but it is still a reality, and it's the reality the op is about, not an overall assessment of Trump's presidency or of anyone who voted for him. The newspaper Human Events for example makes some cogent pro-Trump arguments, but none of that changes the fact that he pushes misinformation.

Regarding your comment "but his tendency to push phony ideas and pseudo-science etc, the whole 'fake news' rallying cry and so on." Trump is not totally unjustified in his "fake news" comments. SPECIAL REPORT: The Eight Worst ‘Fake News’ Stories of the Trump Years

 

[Tom 1]

Regarding your comment "but his tendency to push phony ideas and pseudo-science etc, the whole 'fake news' rallying cry and so on." Trump is not totally unjustified in his "fake news" comments. SPECIAL REPORT: The Eight Worst ‘Fake News’ Stories of the Trump Years

Yes I took a look at those earlier, I don’t think the explanations are entirely convincing but regardless yes any publication occasionally prints something it later has to retract. That is no justification for someone in a position of power labelling whole sections of the press as ‘fake’ however.

 

[Ophiolite]

I think a gadfly needs to have something useful to add as well as pushing buttons, and some credibility too. The conservative U.K. publication The Spectator has a lot of contributing writers who ask provocative questions about the general direction of society and this or that thing - that is useful, and they are all credible people. I don’t think that can really be put in the same category as the random half-baked notions and outright nonsense that does the rounds on YouTube etc.

As a left-wing, tree hugging liberal I am at odds with many of the ideas expressed in The Spectator and the philosophy behind them, but I cannot recall an occasion when I have been enraged by any of those ideas. I just beg to differ from them, but appreciate the cogent way in which they have been presented. Not so with the abundant examples on social media and the like that you mention. (And sadly all too many examples can be found here on CF.)

 

[Bobber]

Scripture says "Thou shalt not lie." You are spreading false and defamatory conspiracy theories and your credibility is now nil.

You were speaking to another poster but you can't claim to know that the Dems that "Their dream is a socialist nation that becomes part of the one world government." doesn't have any truth to it. There are measures to how socialistic a nation becomes but still can be defined more socialistic than it's opposite. And the statement wanting to become a part of a one world government can be said to be true as well. The degree at which they do all the way or partially can be discussed but it's silly to claim they don't hold more of a globalist agenda than Trump.

 

[public hermit]

What I'm interested in discussing is: what drives it? What is behind the idea that not knowing is somehow superior to knowing? I tend to think it might be a fear response of some sort, an unrealistic need for a direct link to absolute certainty when none is available, a desire to shortcut the reality of multiple uncertainties in order to achieve some sense of being grounded or secure. Maybe, as with Trump, it defends some inner need to appear to be knowledgeable and in control, without having to put in the effort required to actually be knowledgeable. Maybe it's just a way of attacking the 'elites' people feel, often with good reason - of course other people doing complex jobs that affect a lot of people's lives are regularly going to upset people - have let them down or misled them, which is sometimes true, sometimes not. I don't really know, but it does seem to be something of that sort. Maybe it is a failure of education systems more concerned with churning out more cogs for the machine than with teaching people how to self-actualise. Anyway I am hoping this will lead to a useful discussion.

I think intellectual laziness coupled with tribalism has a lot to do with it. I don't have to think through the possibilities so long as my side says x. I can just go with it. I think you're right that there is this desire for certainty in a world that is often ambiguous and frightening. We want easy answers for complex problems. It takes time and effort to think. Many don't have the time, or maybe the desire, to consider the various sides and come to a considered opinion. Of course, as you mentioned, some issues involve details that many of us are simply not equipped to investigate.

Also, in the US, there is sometimes a prejudice against the "college educated." I would argue this probably has roots that go back to the "anti-clericalism" of some early American denominations. I know that term is historically associated with Catholicism. I mean that some denominations have taken pride in the fact their clergy did not "need" to be educated. "I don't need college to tell me what's in the bible" kind of thing. I don't know about other places, but (historically speaking) here denominational differences often paralleled class differences.

At any rate, I live in a rural area and I still hear comments about how "He has book smarts but no common sense." (Not towards me, mind you. I'm a hand. ) There can be an odd pride in not having a college education. I remember being told, "You better learn all you can before you go to college, boy." It's strange, but it's real. If I already have a prejudice like that, what's an "expert" opinion supposed to be except some college educated folks with no common sense telling us what to do?

 

[Olmhinlu]

I'm absolutely 100% NOT onboard with any wholesale dismissal of so-called "conspiracy theories" as misinformation, and I'm not getting into that discussion.

I am just popping in to say that the access to and use of preprint servers in this pandemic has been very interesting and gone largely unmentioned. If I were a scientist, medical professional etc. I would surely be looking at how they've been used/misused and be wondering if it's been right. I think it's very interesting and I haven't heard heaps about it. I wonder if people will talk about it more after this...

 

[Amittai]

True yes but Trump is just mentioned in the OP as the example of someone in a position of power who has this tendency, it's not an overall comment on other things to do with that. He is the world's most listened to purveyor of dodgy ideas.

Listening happens at different levels.

Those who listen to Trump listen loudly.

 

[Amittai]

Affect as in influence.

Affect = emotion

Effect = influence

HTH

 

[Amittai]

I think intellectual laziness coupled with tribalism has a lot to do with it. I don't have to think through the possibilities so long as my side says x. I can just go with it. ...

Also, in the US, there is sometimes a prejudice against the "college educated." I would argue this probably has roots that go back to the "anti-clericalism" of some early American denominations. ... I remember being told, "You better learn all you can before you go to college, boy." It's strange, but it's real. If I already have a prejudice like that, what's an "expert" opinion supposed to be except some college educated folks with no common sense telling us what to do?

I treasure what I knew before O levels. But I now pull myself up sharp, by the bootstraps, every day. If the entire human race eschews spoon feeding, dumbing down, and rationing, we've got potential.

Yes the dumbing down among Christians and non Christians alike is far worse in the UK now than it was. Torontulated & Bethelated + designer outlet = complacency. As for Catholic, they confirmed their decreeing themselves vacuous in 1981.

But about experts, depending on the individual, if they've insight they might have insight into all sorts. My own "qualifications" are scanty. Access to publication outlets is an additional matter.

The UK gets more & more sinister, every day.

The US doesn't make the primary system work at all well.

What would President Kasich & VP Rubio do? (One word answers please - start another thread if you like but cross reference.)

I think Trump has some good ideas but using Twitter isn't one of them.

I also think many sinister things have been going on in many camps. And in nearly all countries.

The incident at the monument was a stupid provocation. The hats contain a slogan that had been made associated (by whom) with calling people losers.

I vote for candidates with different labels at various kinds of elections on different ocaasions. I never consider myself as belonging to an ideology, brand name or bloc. It puzzles me why Americans speak as if they are assuming this.

I took the OP as mainly encompassing epistemology generally though.

Tom, can you recap re posts 2, 4 and 8 please?

This is no time to be facile, American or non-American.

Much science and politics alike, is given to us hedged and couched.

Religion and non-religion alike, that doesn't respect individual consciences, is suspect.

 

[Amittai]

...
What I'm interested in discussing is: what drives it?

...

Whoever wanted educating dumbed down. Boundaries and integrity violated. (In England this doesn't split on party lines - the villains are strong in all parties.)

The button pushing system won't resolve it.

One remedy - self home school - lots - now. Look at all the science & Scripture threads on CF - a lot - now.

 

[Amittai]

Administration & commerce are triple, quadruple, quintuple bluffs.

A person dishonest in expression might still be less bad than some others

Christians forget to pray about principle

Christians try to micromanipulate

 

[Amittai]

Affect = emotion

Effect = influence

HTH

Also, the verb to affect = to influence.

In word formation alongside sense, a difference from some common patterns.

 

[disciple Clint]

Yes I took a look at those earlier, I don’t think the explanations are entirely convincing but regardless yes any publication occasionally prints something it later has to retract. That is no justification for someone in a position of power labelling whole sections of the press as ‘fake’ however.

If it was limited only to the examples in that article I could agree but unfortunately it is not.

 

[Tom 1]

Affect = emotion

Effect = influence

HTH

Not quite, affect is an influence on anything that can be influenced, or in more technical use the emotional state of a person (a schizophrenic may exhibit ‘flat affect’ for example). Effect is the end result or impact of something.

 

[Tom 1]

I'm absolutely 100% NOT onboard with any wholesale dismissal of so-called "conspiracy theories" as misinformation, and I'm not getting into that discussion.

I am just popping in to say that the access to and use of preprint servers in this pandemic has been very interesting and gone largely unmentioned. If I were a scientist, medical professional etc. I would surely be looking at how they've been used/misused and be wondering if it's been right. I think it's very interesting and I haven't heard heaps about it. I wonder if people will talk about it more after this...

If you can access the article that is one of the main topics, the pros and cons of pre-print servers.

 

[mindlight]

So test everything and only repeat what is true is the simple answer. We have scientific facts, we have reliable historical discussion, primary sources and witness and we have the bible. If it contradicts these then it is not true.

 

[pitabread]

Trump on the other hand was well on his way to making America great again until Covid 19.

Trump was trying to start WWIII before COVID-19 hit. This pandemic might have been a blessing in disguise.