The Miracle of the Holy Fire

[sbvera13]

Even if I posted you a video with them holding their hand for a minute you would say it was fake so what is the point?

Well, do you have such a video or not?

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

There is a difference between saying its "fake" and saying that what is shown in your vids are things every five your old that meets their first candle can do. I really dont understand why you think this is so special. yes its not a trick, but you'd make about as much sense picking up a rock and dropping it to the ground then claim its falling straight down a miracle, its not a trick either. Its just the way it works and we've known about how and why it works for ages.

I do apologize but things like this is .. in the words of thunderf00t i believe.. "why people laugh at creationists"

 

[Split Rock]

Even if I posted you a video with them holding their hand for a minute you would say it was fake so what is the point?

The point is that so far, you haven't shown us anything special... yet, you calim to be providing us with evidence of a miracle.

 

[MolecularGenetics]

When substances burn (oxidize), they change state. Some of the starting martial is converted into various gasses (like CO2), some into water, some into ash, etc. Energy also changes state; there is an increase in kinetic energy of the constituent particles (heat), and some of that goes into causing pressure waves (sound) in the medium (air, in this case) that the burning takes place in. Light is also given off, as excited electrons drop back down to lower energy levels.

But the conservation of mass/energy states that the sum of the matter and energy you start with (including the oxidizer—from the air, in this case) will equal the matter and energy you end with. So if you are claiming this is an example of magic (a deviation from the universe’s constant nature, i.e. the “laws of physics”), then do you have any publications on research as to the starting and ending martial of the reaction, that shows inconsistency with the laws of physics, Philothei?

If you do not, then it is unjustified and tremendously arrogant of you to claim this to be a miracle. Why? Because what you are implying is that we know what is going on in the reaction so thoroughly; know how the universe behaves so thoroughly; and thus have identified a discrepancy between the two so clear, that we are justified in believing that the only plausible explanation is an interaction with a force not of this universe (a supernatural force).

If you concede that even one of these is inaccurate (such as an incomplete understanding of the interaction of matter and energy in the reaction), then you are not justified in assuming that what is taking place is inconsistent with the laws of physics, i.e. a miracle.

To call something a miracle is to say, “I know precisely how the universe behaves; I know precisely what is going on, here; so since I cannot personally conceive of a way that the former can account for the latter, it must not—there must be a supernatural force at work.”

And you can quote me on that.

It all just strikes me as such arrogance.

History is full of people settling on assumptions of mysterious supernatural agency, which stifles inquiry and testing into the phenomena in question. Yet it is also full of those that were unconvinced by this conclusion; and when they tested them, loe and behold, it turned out that the universe’s consistent nature could account for them.

I’m glad we no longer think lighting is caused by the anger of Thor, like the Vikings did, or that the moon moves across the sky because it is chased by spirit wolves, like certain Native Americans did. We don’t know everything there is to know about the phenomena, but we’re a lot closer to the truth than those models are.

And it’s all made possible by inquiry, testing, and being humble enough to know when we just don’t know.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Since everything about this event can be repeated with an ordinary candle, I don't see what the big deal is. The Holy Fire isn't special, and I'd like to see evidence to the contrary.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

I dont think you understand wiccan. You gotta really really believe to see its holy fire.

 

[Philothei]

The point is that so far, you haven't shown us anything special... yet, you calim to be providing us with evidence of a miracle.

The account of what I posted is all I could find. There is a difference to "be there to experience" versus what can be "videotaped".... Not all miracles can be "testified" accoding to another's experience...

History is full of people settling on assumptions of mysterious supernatural agency, which stifles inquiry and testing into the phenomena in question. Yet it is also full of those that were unconvinced by this conclusion; and when they tested them, loe and behold, it turned out that the universe’s consistent nature could account for them.

I’m glad we no longer think lighting is caused by the anger of Thor, like the Vikings did, or that the moon moves across the sky because it is chased by spirit wolves, like certain Native Americans did. We don’t know everything there is to know about the phenomena, but we’re a lot closer to the truth than those models are.

And it’s all made possible by inquiry, testing, and being humble enough to know when we just don’t know.

I am glad you can also testify to the 80% of the space out there that you "do not see"

Scientists are the ones who declare that they 'cannot see" the 100 of the universe but a tiny spec that is down to 20% at most....so I would conclude that is it pure arrogancy to say that too... What we see we testify. When Moses came from the Mount after he received the ten commantments he saw the "back of God". Yeah it his say so. All miracles are "overturning" the "physics" or as St. Gregory fo Nyssa said is that God works through nature, yet he "anults" or "suspends" the laws for He is God. The Birth of Christ is a "supernatural" event yet it took place within nature in a unique way that God knows and not men.

Sure we discover how physics and the Cosmos works everyday as we unravel new things... But that does not mean that the laws of nature cannot be either "spead up" in case of healing... or suspended in a case like the Holy Fire. Why would scientinsts who can only "see" the 20% of the whole universe reject God is truly and pitiful illogical.

 

[Philothei]

Since everything about this event can be repeated with an ordinary candle, I don't see what the big deal is. The Holy Fire isn't special, and I'd like to see evidence to the contrary.

Start saving up for a trip to the Holy Land during Easter


I know some scientists (among the a doctor) who visited and now he is a Hieromonk

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Start saving up for a trip to the Holy Land during Easter


I know some scientists (among the a doctor) who visited and now he is a Hieromonk

And I know some Jews who went to see the LHC, and now they're scientists. Unsubstantiated anecdotes hardly justify your position. Do you, or do you not, have any evidence that this Holy Fire is anything other than ordinary fire? Bearing in mind that a) third-hand stories don't count, and b) ordinary fire can do everything that the videos show Holy Fire to do.

 

[Philothei]

Trying putting fire close to your hair fro a second then you tell me the results.....

 

[Split Rock]

The account of what I posted is all I could find. There is a difference to "be there to experience" versus what can be "videotaped".... Not all miracles can be "testified" accoding to another's experience...

OK. I will assume this means you have no evidence. Would you agree that most cases of a reported miracle are not really miracles? If so, why are you so certain about this one?

 

[Philothei]

OK. I will assume this means you have no evidence. Would you agree that most cases of a reported miracle are not really miracles? If so, why are you so certain about this one?

This is getting honestly repetitive... Did you see the people putting the fire on their hairy arms? I saw that I cannot believe you did not. Did you see the bearded gentlemen putting the fire on their beards? My friend did this to himself no trick involved.He is an honest man. I believe my eyes and the testimony of honest men. You chose not to. It is unfair to call me either 'arrogant" (not you but some here) who have no proof of the opposite but their say...just the same. At least I know from what I see and what others who I trusts have witnessed you all do not. Why would I believe you?

You do not even answer me about the universe... Scientists know almost 80% of it...all..Why would I trust to tell me about miracles if they do not know the "most" of what lurks in the universe? it does not make sense....But y'all go right ahead beleiving what you can see

Beleiving the 20%..... pity

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Trying putting fire close to your hair fro a second then you tell me the results.....

Tell me the conditions under which they had their hair, and I'll do the same.

 

[Philothei]

??? I do not understand what conditions. Anyhow this cannot be tried at home
*disclaimer here*

Do not do this at home

 

[Super_Rational]

Did you see the people putting the fire on their hairy arms? I saw that I cannot believe you did not. Did you see the bearded gentlemen putting the fire on their beards?

C'mon, I hope you are just pulling my leg here. There are too many problems this whole miracle fire business. For instance:

- Why is it that the fire won't burn skin or hair, but will burn the torch material itself? See the smoke?

- This miraculous fire, which apparently breaks physical laws, apparently isn't so popular outside religious communities (This is the first I've heard of it). I mean, c'mon, this is cold fire we're talking about here! Where's the slew of videos & tests? Where's the guy holding his hand in the flame for a reasonable amount of time?

- Now what I'd like to see is the guy move the torch a tad slower past his beard. Now that would make a great video. Call me a crazy skeptic, but why is everyone moving their parts so quickly in and out of the fire? Are they afraid of something?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

??? I do not understand what conditions. Anyhow this cannot be tried at home
*disclaimer here*

Do not do this at home

Point is, you don't know what conditions those events were filmed under. Dowse someone's head with water and it'll withstand fire longer than if it's parched.

How many objective, scientific evaluations have there been on this?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

- Why is it that the fire won't burn skin or hair, but will burn the torch material itself? See the smoke?

It's a miracle, it can burn whatever it likes.

- This miraculous fire, which apparently breaks physical laws, apparently isn't so popular outside religious communities (This is the first I've heard of it). I mean, c'mon, this is cold fire we're talking about here! Where's the slew of videos & tests? Where's the guy holding his hand in the flame for a reasonable amount of time?

You'd think that a miracle that is not only repeatable, but precise, would be the crown jewel of Christianity...

 

[Super_Rational]

Originally Posted by Split Rock
Would you care to explain why they did not keep their hand or face in the fire for a full minute, if the flames were, as you claim, cool?

Philothei, you replied:

Even if I posted you a video with them holding their hand for a minute you would say it was fake so what is the point?

Philothei, SR was just interested in your thoughts on why everyone in the video moved their hand, beard, etc. so quickly through the flames. This is exactly what someone would do if they did not want to be burned, would you agree? I find it hard to imagine that, assuming such were a real miracle, there would be no obvious, unequivocal examples. But all you have shown are completely ordinary examples.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

hmm...I guess they kinda got to figure out why thousands of people would come to that same spot every year to participate in something so fake? I mean..a lot of the people there have probably going there their whole lives! (especially the natives) if it was so clear that the fire was indeed "normal" fire that burns...I really don't think anyone would give a flying hoot..nor do I think centuries of patriarchs would continue on with a lie like that.....its just to easy to prove something like that false..so easy that if this thing where indeed false the idea that its still being celebrated by so many for so long is just..well..them locals must be total idiots right? what a bunch of loons? but I guess you can be the judge of it.

 

[Split Rock]

hmm...I guess they kinda got to figure out why thousands of people would come to that same spot every year to participate in something so fake? I mean..a lot of the people there have probably going there their whole lives! (especially the natives) if it was so clear that the fire was indeed "normal" fire that burns...I really don't think anyone would give a flying hoot..nor do I think centuries of patriarchs would continue on with a lie like that.....its just to easy to prove something like that false..so easy that if this thing where indeed false the idea that its still being celebrated by so many for so long is just..well..them locals must be total idiots right? what a bunch of loons? but I guess you can be the judge of it.

All becasue people truly beleive does not mean they are right. How many worshippers visited the Temple of Athena in Athens over the centuries? Would thousands of people do this year after year if Athena was a false god? They must have all been idiots .. right?