The Military is standing up

[JosephZ]

Not quite.

The charts are comparing people who have received at least 2 doses of the vaccine and it's been at least two weeks since their second dose, vs. those who have not received any doses, those who have received one dose and those who have received two doses but it hasn't been two weeks since their last dose. All of those people are "unvaccinated' in that data.

That's not what the source of those charts says.

Estimates are age-standardized using Ontario’s current population and a single age cut-off to take into account differences in vaccine uptake and the risk of severe disease between children, adolescents and young adults (0-29 years) and remaining adults (30+ years). The currently available data do not allow for a more granular age standardization. Estimates are based on (1) 7-day averages of the proportions of fully vaccinated and unvaccinated patients hospitalized on wards and ICUs reported in Ontario’s daily surveys, and of fully vaccinated and unvaccinated cases; (2) on COVID-19 hospital and ICU occupancy and the 7-day average of COVID-19 cases in Ontario; and (3) on Ontario’s age-specific vaccination data 7 days before. Hospital occupancy includes patients in ICU. The estimated protection is 1 minus the age-standardized rate ratio comparing people who have received at least 2 doses of a COVID-19 vacine with people who have not yet received a COVID-19 vaccine and is expressed as a percentage. All estimates are updated daily.

So vaccines aren't stopping infections. They are reducing severe outcomes, but the vaccines are not preventing infections nor transmission of the disease.

The charts at that source clearly show that vaccines are preventing infections and also greatly reducing the chances of someone being hospitalized or placed in an ICU. Like I said before, vaccines work. It's an indisputable fact.

When you add the bar graphs it becomes even clearer.

Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table

 

[probinson]

That's not what the source of those charts says.

Estimates are age-standardized using Ontario’s current population and a single age cut-off to take into account differences in vaccine uptake and the risk of severe disease between children, adolescents and young adults (0-29 years) and remaining adults (30+ years). The currently available data do not allow for a more granular age standardization. Estimates are based on (1) 7-day averages of the proportions of fully vaccinated and unvaccinated patients hospitalized on wards and ICUs reported in Ontario’s daily surveys, and of fully vaccinated and unvaccinated cases; (2) on COVID-19 hospital and ICU occupancy and the 7-day average of COVID-19 cases in Ontario; and (3) on Ontario’s age-specific vaccination data 7 days before. Hospital occupancy includes patients in ICU. The estimated protection is 1 minus the age-standardized rate ratio comparing people who have received at least 2 doses of a COVID-19 vacine with people who have not yet received a COVID-19 vaccine and is expressed as a percentage. All estimates are updated daily.

Huh. Interesting. I guess they don't care about the people that have had one dose. Seems odd to omit them completely from the data. But, my bad. I assumed that Canada included them in the "unvaccinated" data like the US does. That's what I get for assuming.

The charts at that source clearly show that vaccines are preventing infections

Yeah, not so much;

and also greatly reducing the chances of someone being hospitalized or placed in an ICU.

That part at least seems to be true.

Like I said before, vaccines work. It's an indisputable fact

We'll see. It was an "indisputable fact" that vaccines were a "dead end" for the virus just 6 short months ago. Not so much now.

In any event, my argument isn't that vaccines don't work. It's that vaccine mandates don't work.

 

[JosephZ]

I assumed that Canada included them in the "unvaccinated" data like the US does. That's what I get for assuming.

The source site isn't a government institution.

Yeah, not so much;

These two graphics are using the same data set. As can be seen in both, vaccines prevent infection. The unvaccinated are around 2.5 times more likely to be infected with Covid than those who are vaccinated.

In any event, my argument isn't that vaccines don't work. It's that vaccine mandates don't work.

Are you sure about that?

 

[probinson]

These two graphics are using the same data set.

Indeed they are. The bar chart shows the current differences, where the line chart shows the historical differences.

As can be seen in both, vaccines prevent infection. The unvaccinated are around 2.5 times more likely to be infected with Covid than those who are vaccinated.

Except that wasn't true less than one month ago, as the line chart shows.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I am quite sure about that.

Mandates don't allow for nuance. That is, IMO, the biggest reason they are folly. Vaccination is a medical decision, particularly when we have known for quite some time that prior infection confers equal or better protection. What about other countries that say if your kids have had COVID, they don't need vaccinated? Or what about spacing out the time between doses? Why require college students to be boosted when FDA vaccine advisor Paul Offit has advised against it? Mandates stop all of these rational discussions and fail to consider individual circumstances while unfairly discriminating against those who don't fully comply regardless of those circumstances.

 

[JosephZ]

Except that wasn't true less than one month ago, as the line chart shows.

You can cherry pick the fewer than 20 days out of 189 where the gap was narrowed to below 2.5X to argue that vaccines aren't effective in preventing infection if you want, but the vast majority of people who take a look at that chart would come to the correct conclusion that being vaccinated decreases the chances of being infected with Covid.

 

[probinson]

You can cherry pick the fewer than 20 days out of 189 where the gap was narrowed to below 2.5X to argue that vaccines aren't effective in preventing infection if you want, but the vast majority of people who take a look at that chart would come to the correct conclusion that being vaccinated decreases the chances of being infected with Covid.

If you say so.

I'm curious, how many people do you know that have not had COVID? In my social circles, vaccinated, boosted or not, just about everyone I know has had COVID. My family, my friends, my co-workers, my boss... I'm having a hard time thinking of someone who hasn't had COVID. Heck, even Mr. Science himself says that most everyone is going to get COVID;

Most Americans Will Get COVID Eventually, Says Fauci

So do vaccines really decrease your chance of being infected with COVID, or do they just delay infection?

 

[JosephZ]

I'm curious, how many people do you know that have not had COVID?

Most people I know have not been infected. So far I know of only 3 family members and maybe a dozen friends and associates within my immediate social circle. My wife was infected despite being fully vaccinated and boosted, but my son and I (Me fully vaxed and boosted and he only receiving two doses since he's just 5 years old) weren't infected even though we were living under the same roof and being in close contact with her during her illness.

In my social circles, vaccinated, boosted or not, just about everyone I know has had COVID. My family, my friends, my co-workers, my boss... I'm having a hard time thinking of someone who hasn't had COVID.

That seems to be an abnormal number of people considering only around 20-23% of the US population has been infected.

 

[probinson]

Most people I know have not been infected. So far I know of only 3 family members and maybe a dozen friends and associates within my immediate social circle. My wife was infected despite being fully vaccinated and boosted, but my son and I (Me fully vaxed and boosted and he only receiving two doses since he's just 5 years old) weren't infected even though we were living under the same roof and being in close contact with her during her illness.

Interesting.

Another anecdote; My mother took care of my infected father in December 2020. No vaccines were available at that time, so neither of them was vaccinated. My mother did not get COVID, even though she was in very close contact and even sleeping in the same bed. My dad (83-years old, diabetic) recovered after an illness of about 14 days. My mother never got infected. That is, until 4 months later, when she didn't feel "quite right" and went and got tested. Tested positive and felt a little under the weather for about 4 days, and then was fine.

That seems to be an abnormal number of people considering only around 20-23% of the US population has been infected.

You're mistaken there. There are only 20-23% of people in the US that have had confirmed positive test results according to current CDC data, but that is not an accurate indicator of how many people have actually been infected. Seroprevalence testing showed infection rates as high as 83% before delta!

SARS-CoV-2 seroprevalence in US was 83% before surge of delta infections

 

[JosephZ]

You're mistaken there. There are only 20-23% of people in the US that have had confirmed positive test results according to current CDC data, but that is not an accurate indicator of how many people have actually been infected. Seroprevalence testing showed infection rates as high as 83% before delta!

SARS-CoV-2 seroprevalence in US was 83% before surge of delta infections

How many additional people infected above the 20-23% confirmed cases is unknown, but the link you provided doesn't show that infection rates were as high as 83% before delta. That percentage includes samples which included vaccine and infection induced antibodies.

The solid black line illustrates the weighted spike antibody seroprevalence, representing the proportion of the population with antibodies from infection, vaccination, or both (combined seroprevalence). The dashed line illustrates the weighted seroprevalence of the population with both spike and nucleocapsid antibodies, representing the proportion of the population with antibodies from infection (infection-induced seroprevalence).

Findings In this repeated cross-sectional study that included 1 443 519 blood donation specimens from a catchment area representing 74% of the US population, estimated SARS-CoV-2 seroprevalence weighted for differences between the study sample and general population increased from 3.5% in July 2020 to 20.2% for infection-induced antibodies and 83.3% for combined infection- and vaccine-induced antibodies in May 2021.

Estimated US Infection- and Vaccine-Induced SARS-CoV-2 Seroprevalence Based on Blood Donations, July 2020-May 2021

 

[probinson]

How many additional people infected above the 20-23% confirmed cases is unknown, but the link you provided doesn't show that infection rates were as high as 83% before delta. That percentage includes samples which included vaccine and infection induced antibodies.

From the article;

Based on testing of more than 1.4 million blood donations, researchers estimated that the SARS-CoV-2 seroprevalence from infection or vaccination among Americans aged 16 years or older was 83% in May, before the delta variant surge.
​

You are correct that misspoke and I should have said "from infection or vaccination". But seroprevalence of COVID was somewhere around 83% LAST MAY. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that number is quite a bit higher now, especially after delta and omicron.

 

[SkyWriting]

Read what I said... We were told that 60% vaccinated would bring "heard immunity". That changed three times.. I've even heard that there is "no" heard immunity with this vaccine or this virus..

It's partly true. Herd immunity is when most of the population cannot spread the virus, but with the new variations, they are leapfrogging the vaccines. Fortunately, the vaccines also reduce the mortality of the virus even if they can't stop the new variations.

 

[JacksBratt]

The lack of honesty here is troubling. You clearly stated that if the vaccines work, we would have herd immunity.

You are misrepresenting what it means for the vaccines to work in the time of omicron

The vaccines work.

This is a fact.

Please be more truthful.

Really? Why are vaccinated people still getting COVID, and transmitting COVID.

If a vaccine works.. you shouldn't care if I get it or not. You don't wear a life jacket on a boat to save someone else. Wearing two life jackets doesn't protect others.

I was vaccinated for mumps... I no longer worried about getting mumps and the possibility of becoming sterile as a young man.

We vaccinated two of our kids for chicken pox.... and didn't worry about them hanging around other kids "in case" they got chicken pox.

My relative refused to let my daughter visit.. unless she got vaccinated.... that's not logical.

Look, I got the vaccine. Not because I thought it was any safer for me.. but... I was allowed to do things because I had it. In fact, I wouldn't have been able to do some of my favorite things if I didn't get it. Sad reason to get a chemical in my arm... but, I wasn't too concerened. By the time I got it many had got it already and it seemed a good gamble.

 

[JacksBratt]

Umm, can you provide evidence for the claim that the CBC is "painting false narratives"?


What?! You dismiss the results of a poll by a long-standing news source and defer to "your circle of friends"?

Please.


Profoundly misleading, of course. The kind of thing one says when the polls are not to one's liking.

I could post some videos of truckers and veterans telling them to pack up as they would not talk to them and let them spin their false narratives.. and the CBC people having their pathetic excuse for what they were spinning..
Or the video of the CBC filming to the left.. the 20 people protesting.. mean while the person videoing them asks them to turn around and show the 1000 people to the right.. The CBC packs up and leaves...
But.. the videos have vulgarity in them so I won't post them here.

You only need to go on YouTube and watch the numerous posts of the media lying.

Seriously, if you can't see the one sided media here... your not looking.

Even the PM.. calling them homophobes, transphobes, racists, misogynists.. all the obes and ists that he likes to name call... all false.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yet another poll that suggests Trudeau will have voter support:

Most Support Military Force to Remove Ottawa Protesters

A new poll by Maru Public Opinion says 53 per cent of Canadians approve the use of force by the military to remove truckers, their families and others who refuse to leave the protest site in the nation's capital.

I don't put a lot of stock in "opinion polls"
All you have to do is look at the support, globally. Not to mention the protests globally.

Look at how pathetic our leader is. He is the laughing stock of the world. He reacts to people protesting government overreach..... with greater overreach.