The mechanics of prayer.

[juvenissun]

If the person is claiming that they prayed to be cured and they were (which I've heard many claims) ... Then it has everything to do with praying

.... Then it has everything to do with praying ... to that person who God cures. But not to anyone else. His experience is absolutely unique.

That is how a God should be.

 

[TheStraightener]

.... Then it has everything to do with praying ... to that person who God cures. But not to anyone else. His experience is absolutely unique.

That is how a God should be.

Which brings us full circle... There are many claims of prayer curing illnesses that could have been cured by other means... But there are no examples of people getting cured of Down syndrome or amputated limbs.

The power of prayer seems to be limited to the capabilities of modern medicine.

 

[juvenissun]

Why aren't you willing to give me a specific example of something you prayed for?


You never know, if your example is good enough I might end up being a believer.

Surely that's a good thing?

Praying and answered prayer is my experience. It is useless to tell you what it is, because I know it will not happen to you. If you were a Christian, I can share with you the specifics. But I do not expect it would happen to you the same way.

That is the true nature of praying. Praying makes one feel the reality of God. You do not accept Him, then everything about God is only saying and hearing, but has no real meaning. Since I became a Christian decades ago, I prayed and prayed. They all FAILED to give me a real experience. I never have a good feeling about praying until I learned how and what to pray. It is absolutely not true that when I prayed for healing then I will be healed. I was sick and I prayed for healing. Then I recovered, I give thanks. But I really do not know if my prayer was answer or not (no real feeling). I realize the nature of praying. I do not want to cheat myself. And I absolutely do not have any intention to cheat you. I do not know you, why do I want to cheat you? If I do not have the experience of a very successful praying, I simply won't talk this much to you.

 

[juvenissun]

Which brings us full circle... There are many claims of prayer curing illnesses that could have been cured by other means... But there are no examples of people getting cured of Down syndrome or amputated limbs.

The power of prayer seems to be limited to the capabilities of modern medicine.

If one prayed incorrectly (possible or not) (according to God), it is not going to be answered. Nearly all answered prayers are not miraculous (to observers).

 

[CabVet]

This is an excellent example of a wrong prayer, if it were yours before or now.

Strictly speaking, what you said has nothing to do with praying.

How can what I said have nothing to do with prayer? Why does prayer cures cancer but not amputees? It has everything to do with prayer.

 

[CabVet]

Like what?

Like evidence that can be demonstrated to others.

 

[juvenissun]

Like evidence that can be demonstrated to others.

What evidence can not be demonstrated?

 

[juvenissun]

How can what I said have nothing to do with prayer? Why does prayer cures cancer but not amputees? It has everything to do with prayer.

It will not be answered. No miracle any more at this time.

 

[Heissonear]

Probably the most long winded and drawn out "No" I think I've ever read.

If your going to make outrageous claims then your gonna need to back it up... Got that?

.

You are rooted in the physical, even your fleshly, mortal, natural life. Your soul is bound to your flesh and it's ways and abilities.

You, like other naturalistic people, need to wake up, even mind your spirit. You can say you have no spirit all you want. The reality is you never heeded and learned your spirit.

You call this way to be Born Again an "outrageous claim". You are trying to confidently speak about what you do not know.

Many live their entire lives never waking up to the Spiritual Realm in our midst.

.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

It will not be answered. No miracle any more at this time.

So an answered prayer does not manifest itself as a miracle?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

.

You are rooted in the physical, even your fleshly, mortal, natural life. Your soul is bound to your flesh and it's ways and abilities.

You, like other naturalistic people, need to wake up, even mind your spirit. You can say you have no spirit all you want. The reality is you never heeded and learned your spirit.

You call this way to be Born Again an "outrageous claim". You are trying to confidently speak about what you do not know.

Many live their entire lives never waking up to the Spiritual Realm in our midst.

.

Yeah, you keep boasting about your familiarity with the spiritual realm, yet you can tell us nothing about it. All you do is bluster. Can we have some specifics please rather than guff about how wonderful you are for having a reserved season ticket to fantasyland central and how we are such lesser beings than you for not actually seeing any evidence of a special magic kingdom in the sky but plenty of evidence for other more commonplace explanations.

 

[TheStraightener]

They like to tell us we don't understand God's way or that we don't understand the supernatural... Yet they don't understand it either because they can't provide any answers to the questions.

Just look at the amount of side stepping going on and the admissions that they don't know things... But then say that we don't understand.

Fact is.. nobody knows any more or less about the supernatural than anyone else. People like to think they do, but can't give any real answers.

So theists, please stop telling us we don't understand... When you clearly don't understand either.

 

[Sectio Aurea]

.

You are rooted in the physical, even your fleshly, mortal, natural life. Your soul is bound to your flesh and it's ways and abilities.

You, like other naturalistic people, need to wake up, even mind your spirit. You can say you have no spirit all you want. The reality is you never heeded and learned your spirit.

You call this way to be Born Again an "outrageous claim". You are trying to confidently speak about what you do not know.

Many live their entire lives never waking up to the Spiritual Realm in our midst.

.

Do you realize how patronizing and condescending this post sounds?

You're like spoilt little brat with a desirable toy that no one is allowed to have because they are not good enough.

You are no more superior to anyone else here, believer or otherwise.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Good question and that is the secret of being a Christian.

A prayer (of request) does not ask for something which will happen, but something not knowing how could it happen, or something has chance to go wrong. If one knows how to get a thing done in 100% confidence, then there is no need to pray.

When a prayer is answered for the first time, nobody can be sure what was going on. But if prayers are answered for a few more times, even the second time, only a stupid will doubt the force of prayer.

Of course, if you do not recognize it at the first time, then you will never know that it happened the second time.

[Lots of questions remain. Hope you will keep asking]

You didn't answer my question at all.

How do you differentiate between an answered prayer and an unanswered prayer?

Let's talk a specific example...
Let's say you have a cancer considered to be terminal.
You pray for being healed.

A few days later, it turns out that your tumor is in the process of remission.

How do you know if the it's an answer to the prayer, or just a natural remission? Like the kind we see in lab rats, for example?

Because the way you outlined it above, it seems to me that you merely just assume it was an answer to the prayer. But you don't actually know. You just assume.

 

[juvenissun]

They like to tell us we don't understand God's way or that we don't understand the supernatural... Yet they don't understand it either because they can't provide any answers to the questions.

Just look at the amount of side stepping going on and the admissions that they don't know things... But then say that we don't understand.

Fact is.. nobody knows any more or less about the supernatural than anyone else. People like to think they do, but can't give any real answers.

So theists, please stop telling us we don't understand... When you clearly don't understand either.

Thank you for giving me a reason not continue to talk.

 

[TheStraightener]

Thank you for giving me a reason not continue to talk.

You never said any anything anyway.

You talked a lot... But said nothing

 

[DogmaHunter]

A very critical aspect of praying is the sincereness in your mind.

Does sincereness rule out coincidences?

If raining is not one of your critical concern, then you do not care and you will not know. How critical is critical? YOU are the only one who knows. and it can not be measured by any objective standard. That is why praying is a 100% personal experience. And that is what it should be.

So... how do you know if the rain was coincidental or an answered prayer?

Praying could be simple and straight forward, could be complicated, and could take a long history. It gives an unique feeling between you and God only.

So... how do you know if this "feeling" reflects something objectively real and not just self-deceiving superstition?

Just like nobody else could understand the exact feeling between you and your lover.

That's not actually true. Love is objectively a very real emotion.

That is why when a Christian claims that his prayer was answered, nobody else knows exactly what's going on with him. And that is the way it SHOULD be.

I feel tempted to state that you only think that that is the way it "should" be, because it renders it an unfalsifiable and unverifiable phenomena.

Which again leaves my question completely unanswered... how do you differentiate between an answered prayer and a coincidence or self-deceiving superstition?

Praying is a conversation between a believer and his God.

Or.... a conversation with himself. Which seems a lot more likely.

If you do not even recognize that God, how could you evaluate the communication between a believer and his God? So, the discussion of this issue is much more beneficial to believers, rather than to unbelievers.

Yes. Just like a discussion about astrology is more beneficial to people who buy into horoscopes.

 

[Lost Angel]

It's the same with healing.

God seems to be able to cure things within the realms of modern medicine but where is he when it comes to an undeniable tangible healing miracle such as Downs Syndrome or amputees then he is no where in sight.

People Say that atheists won't accept anything non natural? Show me downs syndrome being cured or a severed limb growing back as a result of prayer or God and then we've got something to work with.

Until then spare me your unverifiable, unprovable, presupposed nonsense.

Seeing non natural things occurring would definitely serve well to loosen skepticism. While it probably not convince everyone of miracles, it certainly would definitely spur some to forward understanding of the event.

Unexplained events may or may not be miracles. I don't see miracles having to be unexplainable.

Personal perspective holds considerable weight.

 

[Strathos]

So, you need to be gullible. Right.

There is none so blind as he who is unwilling to see..

 

[juvenissun]

Does sincereness rule out coincidences?

To observers, no.

To the one who prayed, there is no purpose of self-deceiving. A prayer works or not, only the one who prayed knows. If I prayed Obama get sick, and indeed he get sick a few days later. I will be very skeptical that it is caused by my prayer. But I probably will try again to confirm it. Most likely, it won't work. Don't think you are the only one who is reasonable. Nobody is stupid. If prayer does not work, this ritual would not last long.

This is how God and praying "should be" because it is the most reasonable conclusion based on logic and theology. You think praying could be scientifically proven effective? Don't be naive.